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T1 vs T2 drones for Mael lvl4's
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Albino Smurfs
Comply Or Die
Pandemic Horde
#1 - 2013-04-12 02:54:39 UTC
I'm fairly new only about 3mil SP and I'm running level 4's in an Artie Maelstrom. I have about 600k so in each gunnery and drones. I specifically trained drone interfacing 3 and each drone specialization to 2 so I could use t2 drones against those pesky frigates and cruisers that get close.

So far from what I've experienced my T2 lights and mediums seem to get targeted very hard in several missions (Headhunters and Worlds Collide are the ones I've noticed the most). I always pull them out after I start attacking and never send them on ships not red boxing me but they still seems to have more down time than up time on those specific missions just to keep them alive. Also I will lose 1 every so often to this problem even when I micro manage them.

So the question, is it going to be better to use T1 drones for most missions if they get focused less (or to lower the cost of replacement) or is it still with it to use them with my skill level in drones?
Postitute
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2013-04-12 03:24:05 UTC
Use T1 drones if T2 are pricey for you and you're losing a lot of them. Keep a group of 5 t2 light drones in case you get in a pinch and need to take down a group of scramming frigs fast.

I don't think t1 drones get much less aggression but to be honest I haven't used any for years.

I fit a target painter, which gives my ship additional aggression. but that may be tight or impractical for your ship.

Losing drones is a pain - just watch the new spawns especially - that's usually what will aggres my drones.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#3 - 2013-04-12 06:21:58 UTC
Not exactly on topic but...

In ship like mael your main offense are guns not drones which should only serve to clear those pesky frigs getting too close and putting scram/web on you. You should be able to keep your tank even with couple of frigs shooting you while you are clearing bigger hulls (cruisers, BCs, BSs).

Drones shouldn't be included in overall DPS your mael can do and rule of thumb for L4s is your gank + tank should be approx 1000.

My overall advice would be to get back to L3s until your skills allow you to actually use mael's gank and tank abilities. Which are pretty enough as for regular BS.

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Albino Smurfs
Comply Or Die
Pandemic Horde
#4 - 2013-04-12 06:41:51 UTC
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
Not exactly on topic but...

In ship like mael your main offense are guns not drones which should only serve to clear those pesky frigs getting too close and putting scram/web on you. You should be able to keep your tank even with couple of frigs shooting you while you are clearing bigger hulls (cruisers, BCs, BSs).

Drones shouldn't be included in overall DPS your mael can do and rule of thumb for L4s is your gank + tank should be approx 1000.

My overall advice would be to get back to L3s until your skills allow you to actually use mael's gank and tank abilities. Which are pretty enough as for regular BS.



My arties + my tank is over 1000 :/. Though I always multi task with drones on frig/cruisers with arties on bs/anything outside of 30km. I lose isk/hour if I leave frigs to kill with drones while my arties don't have targets left.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#5 - 2013-04-12 07:23:16 UTC
You have 3mil SP flying BS in L4s and you are talking about losing ISK/hr? Seriously...

When I was doing L4s in mael (it was before AI anti-drone aggro change) I wasn't using arties but ACs and I had 12 mil of SP or sth like that (I can't remember exact number right now, maybe I could find some posts from that time). But I know that I very rarely really needed to use drones and only for few frigs that got under my guns or just spawned there or warp in point was exactly on top of them.

Beside if you are going with arties fit MJD, jump away from spawn and spank them from a distance. Or just keep losing them occasionally, 1 BS rat bounty should refund t2 warrior or 2.

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Albino Smurfs
Comply Or Die
Pandemic Horde
#6 - 2013-04-12 07:54:56 UTC
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
You have 3mil SP flying BS in L4s and you are talking about losing ISK/hr? Seriously...

When I was doing L4s in mael (it was before AI anti-drone aggro change) I wasn't using arties but ACs and I had 12 mil of SP or sth like that (I can't remember exact number right now, maybe I could find some posts from that time). But I know that I very rarely really needed to use drones and only for few frigs that got under my guns or just spawned there or warp in point was exactly on top of them.

Beside if you are going with arties fit MJD, jump away from spawn and spank them from a distance. Or just keep losing them occasionally, 1 BS rat bounty should refund t2 warrior or 2.


Why wouldn't I worry about isk per hour... I don't understand why I shouldn't be using my time as efficiently as I can :/. Can a Maelstrom even fit a jump drives, I guess I don't really know much about them. Anyway back on topic the issue isn't that I can't do them or that I'm losing money because of drones... I just wanted to know which would be more effective given my skills since from the research I've done T2 drones really are only better than T1 because of the damage modifier from skills.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#7 - 2013-04-12 08:21:46 UTC
A T2 drone is more likely to kill something before it gets killed, and since its got more hps, it will tank more damage against its shield regen too - so t2 drones sometimes just sit there and don't die.

Bear in mind that artillery is has to be managed more because its the slowest firing and hence largest damage per shot weapon in the game, so you might need to divide your artillery into 2 groups to manage overkill, but at range, frigates will fly directly toward you with their MWD on, and a frigate with mwd and no transversal velocity is easily shot with turrets.

One way of achieving this is to MJD, the other is simply to lock and kill frigates first before they have time to close to the beacon where you warped in. If the mission is not a dead space you can also warp to a suitable range without needing an MJD, and for one or two missions you can kite (ie shoot and move) whilst fighting an existing spawn, so that you are further away from the next spawn.

ie there is a lot that can be done to avoid needing to send drones any distance or kill very many targets, and there is a lot in terms of targeting order you can do that lets you use your turrets on all the targets, even if they are large clumsy turrets.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#8 - 2013-04-12 08:54:15 UTC
Albino Smurfs wrote:
Why wouldn't I worry about isk per hour... I don't understand why I shouldn't be using my time as efficiently as I can :/.


If you are really worried about ISK/hr you shouldn't be in L4s flying BS with weak skills in everything from gank to tank to fittings to hull and to whole spectrum of supports. By definition you are not efficient with your time at the moment. Eve is not about "bigger ship better ship" but do what you want, just don't lie to yourself you are getting as much as you could ISK for your time.

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Albino Smurfs
Comply Or Die
Pandemic Horde
#9 - 2013-04-12 09:08:59 UTC
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
Albino Smurfs wrote:
Why wouldn't I worry about isk per hour... I don't understand why I shouldn't be using my time as efficiently as I can :/.


If you are really worried about ISK/hr you shouldn't be in L4s flying BS with weak skills in everything from gank to tank to fittings to hull and to whole spectrum of supports. By definition you are not efficient with your time at the moment. Eve is not about "bigger ship better ship" but do what you want, just don't lie to yourself you are getting as much as you could ISK for your time.


I guess if you could tell me what to do to get more isk? Most the time I can get about 15mil an hour and I have yet to find another activity that good.

As for two groups and targeting order, I always have my artillery in two groups of 4. My strategy is to kill smallest to biggest at a range > 30km. So any frigs that don't spawn on me die to my artillery. But again my problem with drone agro is specific to only a few missions but those few missions are frig heavy and close range... To restate... I have no problem with the missions just and I have no idea why that is what you think. Its just a question of drone effectiveness...
Holy Eriker
Trust Doesn't Rust
Goonswarm Federation
#10 - 2013-04-12 09:29:31 UTC
Tauranon wrote:
A T2 drone is more likely to kill something before it gets killed, and since its got more hps, it will tank more damage against its shield regen too - so t2 drones sometimes just sit there and don't die.

Bear in mind that artillery is has to be managed more because its the slowest firing and hence largest damage per shot weapon in the game, so you might need to divide your artillery into 2 groups to manage overkill, but at range, frigates will fly directly toward you with their MWD on, and a frigate with mwd and no transversal velocity is easily shot with turrets.

One way of achieving this is to MJD, the other is simply to lock and kill frigates first before they have time to close to the beacon where you warped in. If the mission is not a dead space you can also warp to a suitable range without needing an MJD, and for one or two missions you can kite (ie shoot and move) whilst fighting an existing spawn, so that you are further away from the next spawn.

ie there is a lot that can be done to avoid needing to send drones any distance or kill very many targets, and there is a lot in terms of targeting order you can do that lets you use your turrets on all the targets, even if they are large clumsy turrets.




+1
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#11 - 2013-04-12 09:45:01 UTC
Albino Smurfs wrote:
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
Albino Smurfs wrote:
Why wouldn't I worry about isk per hour... I don't understand why I shouldn't be using my time as efficiently as I can :/.


If you are really worried about ISK/hr you shouldn't be in L4s flying BS with weak skills in everything from gank to tank to fittings to hull and to whole spectrum of supports. By definition you are not efficient with your time at the moment. Eve is not about "bigger ship better ship" but do what you want, just don't lie to yourself you are getting as much as you could ISK for your time.


I guess if you could tell me what to do to get more isk? Most the time I can get about 15mil an hour and I have yet to find another activity that good.

As for two groups and targeting order, I always have my artillery in two groups of 4. My strategy is to kill smallest to biggest at a range > 30km. So any frigs that don't spawn on me die to my artillery. But again my problem with drone agro is specific to only a few missions but those few missions are frig heavy and close range... To restate... I have no problem with the missions just and I have no idea why that is what you think. Its just a question of drone effectiveness...


I shoot about 30mil/hr bounties - more if I'm really trying - and lp/rewards etc make my income more than 40mil/hr. I also make about 65mil/hr probing in highsec/lowsec and associated islands, and since that is largely a cruiser activity its easier to max out your training for it - but beaware its extremely spikey income with a lot of competition.

the easiest way to improve mission isk is to reject the worst ones, and to learn how to blitz some of the ones that make you a lot more money blitzed. I save my rejects for faction missions myself though, as I hate having to go fix the other faction standings too much.

Also there is nothing stopping you exchanging arties for autocannons for the worst of the inclose missions.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#12 - 2013-04-12 10:05:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Schmata Bastanold
Let me first state that I don't want to put you down because you are relatively new and not experienced and not skilled. I was in your shoes a year ago and by no means I am pretending to be winner of Eve.

But because I can still remember how it is to be a newbie flying around in ruppie when everybody around undock in their machariels and vargurs and other shiny stuff I just wanted to help you realize some not so obvious things. Do not take my criticism and advice as personal attack because they are not meant to be hostile.

I think your skills are not suitable for BS in L4s simply because Minmatar BS V takes 2 mil of SP alone, Large Projectile Turrets V takes 1.2mil SP. That's like all of your SP you have now and you also need shield tanking skills, supports for guns, fitting skills to fit all that is needed to have decent mael fit even with t1 guns. Decent frigate fit requires more SP that you have now to be efficient and you are flying BS hull which is in general considered as a stepping stone into Vargur and/or Machariel.

This is why I think you shouldn't talk about ISK/hr atm because you are too low on skills to even think about efficiency in L4s. Most definitely you would be better off grinding L3s in properly fitted BC. Mission rewards + bounties + LP from multiple missions you can finish withing 1 hour will be greater than ISK you get now from 1 or 2 L4s you are able to finish atm.

Edit:

I don't know where you are doing your missions but try to find agent in 0.5-0.6 system to take advantage of higher bounties and rewards. Just do not accept missions sending you to lowsec because you will lose your mael for sure. And train your social skills to lvl 4 to get better agent's rewards and LP. I think it is Security Connections (more LP) and Negotiation (more ISK).

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Albino Smurfs
Comply Or Die
Pandemic Horde
#13 - 2013-04-12 10:29:56 UTC
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
Let me first state that I don't want to put you down because you are relatively new and not experienced and not skilled. I was in your shoes a year ago and by no means I am pretending to be winner of Eve.

But because I can still remember how it is to be a newbie flying around in ruppie when everybody around undock in their machariels and vargurs and other shiny stuff I just wanted to help you realize some not so obvious things. Do not take my criticism and advice as personal attack because they are not meant to be hostile.

I think your skills are not suitable for BS in L4s simply because Minmatar BS V takes 2 mil of SP alone, Large Projectile Turrets V takes 1.2mil SP. That's like all of your SP you have now and you also need shield tanking skills, supports for guns, fitting skills to fit all that is needed to have decent mael fit even with t1 guns. Decent frigate fit requires more SP that you have now to be efficient and you are flying BS hull which is in general considered as a stepping stone into Vargur and/or Machariel.

This is why I think you shouldn't talk about ISK/hr atm because you are too low on skills to even think about efficiency in L4s. Most definitely you would be better off grinding L3s in properly fitted BC. Mission rewards + bounties + LP from multiple missions you can finish withing 1 hour will be greater than ISK you get now from 1 or 2 L4s you are able to finish atm.

Edit:

I don't know where you are doing your missions but try to find agent in 0.5-0.6 system to take advantage of higher bounties and rewards. Just do not accept missions sending you to lowsec because you will lose your mael for sure. And train your social skills to lvl 4 to get better agent's rewards and LP. I think it is Security Connections (more LP) and Negotiation (more ISK).


While a I appreciate the advise and it seems like you know what your doing now. I don't think I'm in the same position you were with 3million sp. No offense but every game has a learning curve and the fact that I have a viable fit for something you can't even fathom. I didn't come to debate whether I can do something I already do... and lvl3s are a significant drop in isk. And quite frankly you've yet to even address my OP which really just derailed the entire thread lol....
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#14 - 2013-04-12 10:41:15 UTC
You OP question was answered by Tauranon already: t2 drones are worth it and t1 are not less hated by AI than t2, they are just cheaper.

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Carek Talen
Another Corp.
#15 - 2013-04-12 11:08:21 UTC
Albino Smurfs wrote:
from the research I've done T2 drones really are only better than T1 because of the damage modifier from skills.


Warrior I
Warrior II

The tech 2 version does more raw(skills ignored) damage, has better tracking, is faster, has more shield/armor/hull... better endurance and damage application.
Albino Smurfs
Comply Or Die
Pandemic Horde
#16 - 2013-04-12 12:31:35 UTC
Carek Talen wrote:
Albino Smurfs wrote:
from the research I've done T2 drones really are only better than T1 because of the damage modifier from skills.


Warrior I
Warrior II

The tech 2 version does more raw(skills ignored) damage, has better tracking, is faster, has more shield/armor/hull... better endurance and damage application.





The point of my post being not that it isn't better but the damage multiplier being the biggest difference.
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#17 - 2013-04-12 12:41:48 UTC
For missions where you have full range control you could consider using 4 sentries (that would require done interfacing IV to access sentry drone interfacing), since it combines well with an arty setup.

For a more conservative approach you could use 3 sentries and a flight of light drones for frigates that fly under your tracking.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2013-04-12 19:29:35 UTC
No offence but 15m an hour is far from "viable". You could easily make more efficiently running level3 missions in a properly skilled and fitted battlecruiser.

You made a mistake and that's fine, you recognise there's a learning curve and its never too late to fix because there is no bad skills in the game just some that are more efficient than others.

I would start getting some advice from your corp mates about battlecruisers and level 3 missions and start going for those. Personally I found level 4 missions more profitable once I had the relevant bs skill to 4 and large turrets to 4 with tech 2 tank and most supports to 4.

That's around the region of about the region of 3m sp and that's not even counting prerequisites.

Art of Explosions
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#19 - 2013-04-12 20:05:04 UTC
T2 drones are worth it. Just learn to mange them better. Use the lites to take care of the frigs that are close. Do not send them far out to take on frigs you haven't aggro'd yet. Once the frigs are off the field switch to mediums to help with dps on the cruisers and BS.

The AI roughly works out this way:
Frigate npcs engage all drones.
Cruisers engage medium and above.
BS engage heavies and above.

So you should be taking out cruisers first, then BS. Leave frigates for last or for drones. Watch your drone health and recall them when they start taking hits.

On another note, I would use Autocannons on the Mael instead of Arty. And train your gunnery skills to 5 as soon as possible. Including the specialization skills.
Dyphorus
Inritus Astrum
#20 - 2013-04-13 05:27:53 UTC
In an arty mael it's easiest to just rely on guns. For low SP, train micro jump drive, and pop things as they close. With smart/tactical use of an MJD level 4's are trivial, you'll rarely touch your booster. May take a while with low gunnery skills, but not difficult at all. The only times you ever really need drones are to pop frigs that get inside where you can't track them. That said, eventually you'll want T2 drones, at least lights.


As you skills improve, you'll burn through missions quicker. You'll reach a point where you need to split your guns into 2 groups since you can half volley frigs at range.

Male also works well running nul-sec anoms. I use one to run Sansha anoms in Providence and make quite a bit more than you'll manage to make on L4's