EVE General Discussion

It's “magic circle”, btw…

It's this one. Bookmark it this time!

The quote in no way references "morality". It is simply a statement of permissibility.


I'm allowed to say "I want to hurt you", the toon. I'm not allowed to say "I want to hurt you", the player.

I can say "I want to infiltrate your corp, empty your hangers, Awox your players, and disband your alliance". I can't say "I want to find your real address, steal your computer, hack your account, and sell all your characters on the character bazaar".


Again, it addresses permissibility, not morality.

Given the skills you've shown at careful screening, was his name "Gobbins" by chance?

And yet, shooting corp mates exists equally for dealing with Awoxers. You don't have to put up with someone in your corp that refuses to dock and can't be kicked. While providing intel and warpins for hostile fleets. You have a recourse. You can go shoot him. (cloaking aside). Sure, he can tackle a blue. The blue is also capable of defending himself and shaking tackle before the reinforcements arrive. Or a friend/alt bailing him out. If they steal a ship from the corp, you have the chance to not let them leave with it.


One great benefit of noobs being able to shoot corp mates is RR setups and energy chains in high sec. We've all seen lolmails where a blinged mission boat met CONCORD response for accidentally hitting F1 instead of F2 on an out-of-corp fleet member. I know a guy that lost a 4bil tengu like that.

For that matter, I personally shot a corp member on my first level 4 mission, because he had locked me to use his remote reps. I still had auto target back set to 4 or whatever my target limit -1 was. If that was a criminal action, I would have been in my pod in the time it took me to figure out what had happened. Instead of just wondering why his drones were shooting me a minute later. I would have also lost more than half of my assets at the time with that blunder.

If I did it by accident, how easy would it be to get new people to concord themselves on a corp member just for tears, let alone loot and salvage?

Everyone gets the same tools and all that.

Mind you, the new Safety feature was a really big buff to high sec noobs, preventing that sort of thing these days. I wonder if anyone has found away to use the feature against them yet, short of tricking them into turning it off.

Again, this is going no where.... but I'll play.

In my experience, I've encountered people that argue morality is an objective truth, created by a deity, or inherent in the laws of the universe like gravity or conservation of energy. I reject this notion of morality as the logical fallacy of "appeal to unqualified authority".

Sticking with the purely subjective arguments for regarding morality, there are two schools of thought. One is a micro, bottoms up definition based on something akin to the Golden Rule. Treat people as you and they reasonably want and expect to be treated, until through their actions, other treatment is justified.

CLEARLY subjective since "responsibly" is a vague a word as you can get. How can you know how someone wants to be treated? What happens when treatment you want and expect is in direct contradictions to what other want and exepct? If someone is a machinist is it immoral to NOT cause them pain?

Using this, let's call it Libertarian, approach to morality, then a boxer punching another boxer in the face is not immoral since the other boxer reasonable wants and expect you to try to hit him in the face.

Applied to EVE, would someone reasonable want and expect a corp-mate to Awox them, because they enjoy a game where such this occur? Purely subjective.


The other way of approaching morality is a macro, top-down approach. Call it the humanist approach. First we decide the type of society we want to live in, then we create and communicate a moral code that creates that kind of world. According to many followers of humanism, sports such as boxing are immoral, because their existence promotes violence in the larger society. Note that the immorality of boxing, in this view of morality, is not dependent on whether the participants want and expect to be punched in the face, but rather based on the effect their sport has on society.





Incorrect. I do not have to prove all animals are birds. I simply have to demonstrate that birds are animals.

If I'm in a PvP fleet, looking for a fight, and then you attempt to fight me, it passes both tests of morality. I want and expect you to try to fight me, and it create the EVE universe that I think we all can agree should exist.

If I'm trying to help a new player get some ISK to buy skill books, is it reason to expect a corp mate to show up and blow up my ship? Does this create the kind of game environment that we, as the player base, would like to have?

But, again, this is all irrelevant, as I'm not advocating the rules be changed to force people to play "morally". This is purely a philosophical discussion.






I believe I did. I never said "I did nothing wrong". What I said was, I granted recruiter roles to someone that let an Awoxer in.

I'll try again. I f'd up. Mia culpa. I granted recruiter roles to someone that intentionally allowed in a known Awoxer.

Better?






Again, I'm pretty sure that is what I said.

No.

You clearly want to play this game that is complex and competitive and views betrayal as valid gameplay. They don't exactly hide it. It's right on the box. To continue the boxing analogy, if you stepped into an MMA ring and demanded that you not be kicked or grappled because you're a boxer you'd be pretty foolish, no?

Yes, he complained about how his poor choices had consequences. And then you tried to say that the problem was alts. It is not. Even if it was there is nothing that can be done about alts. Get used to them or don't play Eve, Alts are here to stay.

It is not possible to discuss something, without it being perceived a complaining?


I simply stated the facts. I never asserted that I didn't make poor choices. I never asserted that these consequences were not appropriate.

I stated that the preponderance of alts is a huge reason that the few real new players are not trusted. I never asserted anything should be done about it.


I guess that it is just assumed that anyone making a post on the internet is whining, complaining and demanding change. None of that is the intention of this thread.


I stuck with the game because I had mentors, something most new players won't have.
I stuck with the game because of real world connections that made me trusted, something most new players won't have.
I stuck was finally driven from the game by a high degree of asshattery I encountered, something a typical new player is likely to encounter much earlier in the game.



Perhaps I should have shorted the OP to...

EVE is a shart-tank in a constant state of feeding frenzy, where the vast majority of players are immature and immoral griefers that would scam their own mother of her last 2 ISK then Awox her last frig, just for the luls and because the rules allow it.... and CCP is surprised there is a low new player retention rate?

People try to blame carebears teaching new players to be risk averse, for this low retention rate? Seriously?

After reading the OP ...
... i feel like i should make a new player training corp.

You'd wish that'd not happen. xD