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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Gallente

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Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1521 - 2013-04-11 11:56:52 UTC
Akirei Scytale wrote:
The Mega fit I'm comparing it to has a max sensor range of 145km. It does 630 DPS at 40 km.

Here's what I'm using so you stop talking out of your rear. And bear in mind any Abaddon fit you compare with it that is supposed to work in a fleet needs to have a similar or bigger buffer. There is a reason no one uses beam abaddons - they can't fit a respectable tank at all.

Also, comparing to a modern Rokh, that Mega has better DPS up to about 80-90km. The vast majority of fleet fights take place around 40-70km. Hell, Alpha Maels can barely tickle you past 75km, and also operate best near 40km (doing less DPS).

Here a Hellcat with beams :
[Abaddon, BeamHellcat]

1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Damage Control II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

100MN Microwarpdrive II
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Ultraviolet L
Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Ultraviolet L
Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Ultraviolet L
Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Ultraviolet L
Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Ultraviolet L
Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Ultraviolet L
Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Ultraviolet L
Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Ultraviolet L

Large Ancillary Current Router I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I

The only drawback of this ship is capacitor. 712dps@40km ; 594dps@60km.
If capacitor is too low for your taste, replace a TC with med cap booster, and have the same performances than your Megathron (650dps@43km) : dps advantage of the Megathron is marginal (<20) between 50 and 70km after what the beam abaddon fall. Remove a trimark for whatever you could need (ionic field projector for example), and still have 129kehp.

My apologizes for the Rokh, I thought it had 3MFS. Even though, Rokh should have more dps at 75km than a Megathron.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1522 - 2013-04-11 11:58:50 UTC
Did we scare you off CCP Rise?

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1523 - 2013-04-11 12:05:07 UTC
Pattern Clarc wrote:
Re: 7+1/5/6
LOL, a tempest with blasters, with less range and neuting power and agility than a tempest, and less turret dps and speed than a talos.... "What is the interest already ? Oh yeah, solowanna-be nerds can pick a second choice ship to follow the skirmish ships. What does this ship can do another ship can't ?"

Obviously, three times the ehp of a Talos and being still faster than CBC is of no interest...

And even compared to the Tempest, this Mega would have had something (dps, or the same role a Vexor have next to a Rupture), as opposed to this new one which have 8 low slots only to be marginaly worse than anything it would try to mimic.

Well, this Megathron is not that bad, but 8/5/6 or 7/5/7 would have been immensely better for an attack ship.
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
#1524 - 2013-04-11 12:28:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Phoenix Torp
Megathron:

With the Hyperion moving to more of a combat/utility ship via its drones, heavy mid-slot allocation, and spare high, we felt the mega could now afford to move towards a completely dedicated gun boat. Instead of the former 8/5/6 utility focused set up, we now have a 7/4/8 hybrid damage machine that has sacrificed its utility high (which was often unused) to gain another low - giving it more access to damage, damage application/projection, or tank. It stays in its attack role and therefor retains the previously described increases to speed and agility. This design should also fit the 'flavor' that the Megathron has spent a decade building much more accurately.

Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+5% Large Hybrid Turret rate of fire (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
+7.5% Large Hybrid Turret tracking speed

Slot layout: 7H(-1), 4M, 8L(+1); 7 turrets , 0 launchers(-2)
Fittings: 15500 PWG, 570 CPU(+20)
Defense (shields / armor / hull): 6300(+89) / 6500(-141) / 7500
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 5800(+175) / 1087s / 5.02 (+.15)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 122(+7) / .117(-.0046) / 98400000 / 15.96s (-.63s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 75(-50) / 75(-50)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 72.5km / 95 / 7
Sensor strength: 21 Magnetometric Sensor Strength
Signature radius: 380(-20)

Mega: the death of a ship
You have the perfect kill-cruisers, but against a Maelstrom is (as usual) useless. They drop 1 High and add 1 Low. Cap changes will be useless if you fit a MWD. At least will be faster for kiting (railguns maybe? Optimal of blasters sucks). Less drones. So, you hit a BS (Maels) that needs less speed but have better effective damage for the falloff of Projectile against Hybrid. Ah! And both are attack role ¬¬
Nah, I will start thinking in a Mega with Railguns / AB / 2 Tracking Enhancer's. Maybe 3 if you fit blasters.

BTW... ¡¡¡CCP!!! ¡FIX THE HYBRIDS!

http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1525 - 2013-04-11 12:32:00 UTC
seems like the navy brutix will kill off the new mega before it has started :(

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#1526 - 2013-04-11 12:36:33 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Did we scare you off CCP Rise?


Nope, but there's only 3 guys left at CCP working on EVE, Rise, Ytterbium and Fozzie so they are currently handling some serverside issues and replying to petitions.

.
kyrieee
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1527 - 2013-04-11 12:49:13 UTC
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
seems like the navy brutix will kill off the new mega before it has started :(


Seems like you don't know what you're talking about.
Jadiss
HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
#1528 - 2013-04-11 13:00:02 UTC
Suicide Smith wrote:
Jadiss wrote:
Is there no way to keep the Hyperions 8 turret?

You don't want the 8 turrets.
The fewer turrets you have, the less ammo you use, and the less cap you need. The latter being VERY important on the Hyperion which is a cap sink. The former being very important in long fights, or in extended use in things like Incursions.

I would much rather save the isk, and the cap, and have 6 guns.. The model can be re-worked the next time they go over it.



True with the cap, but it could be compensated with adjusting the ships base capacitor size/ recharge .
And its easier than remodelling the ship .
Suicide Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1529 - 2013-04-11 13:07:47 UTC
Jadiss wrote:
True with the cap, but it could be compensated with adjusting the ships base capacitor size/ recharge .
And its easier than remodelling the ship .

No, there's no way to compensate for it. You can fix it for some ammos, but unless they want to do a massive boost to cap Antimatter and the like will still drain her dry.

Or they can leave the model as it is.. Myrm anyone ? Hell even the new Destroyers like the Corax have 8 hardpoints on the model, but only use 7.

Aesthetics are secondary to the ships performance.. after the first few times you play with the ship you'll be zoomed out so much you won't even notice it.
smoking gun81
Doomheim
#1530 - 2013-04-11 13:09:22 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
New versions of Hyperion and Megathron posted in the OP - let me know what you guys think.


In short I'm not entirely convinced on either because there is no 8 weapon slot BS now you could adjust the mega to be the new 8 weapon slot boat but IMO this slot would have to be a low giving it a layout of:


Slot layout: 8H, 4M, 7L; 8 turrets (+1) , 0 launchers(-2)

And adjust drone stats to:

Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(-75) / 50(-75)

These changes I would feel make it to quote yourself

CCP Rise wrote:
to move towards a completely dedicated gun boat.


even with a Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: of 7.5% to Large Hybrid Turret rate of fire and Large Hybrid Turret tracking speed adjusting capacitor recharge and ships powergrid to compensate for the extra turret and ROF bonus.

and as for the Hyperion:


Slot layout: 7H(-1), 5M, 7L(+1); 6 turrets , 1 launchers

Are you realy going to give the hyperion the launcher after orignialy wanting to remove the launcher points from the mega when it has gratley been admitted in the thread that 7 turrets and a neut or nos was used with the mega, I'm not saying take the 7th slot away just the launcher hardpoint.

Zloco Crendraven wrote:


2 plates 2 eanm and a dc? Is not a solid tank?


NO just because you think It is does not make it so some people think pluging that explosive hole is important.
Tennessee Jack
Doomheim
#1531 - 2013-04-11 13:12:24 UTC
smoking gun81 wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
New versions of Hyperion and Megathron posted in the OP - let me know what you guys think.


In short I'm not entirely convinced on either because there is no 8 weapon slot BS now you could adjust the mega to be the new 8 weapon slot boat but IMO this slot would have to be a low giving it a layout of:


Slot layout: 8H, 4M, 7L; 8 turrets (+1) , 0 launchers(-2)

And adjust drone stats to:

Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(-75) / 50(-75)

These changes I would feel make it to quote yourself

CCP Rise wrote:
to move towards a completely dedicated gun boat.


even with a Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses: of 7.5% to Large Hybrid Turret rate of fire and Large Hybrid Turret tracking speed adjusting capacitor recharge and ships powergrid to compensate for the extra turret and ROF bonus.

and as for the Hyperion:


Slot layout: 7H(-1), 5M, 7L(+1); 6 turrets , 1 launchers

Are you realy going to give the hyperion the launcher after orignialy wanting to remove the launcher points from the mega when it has gratley been admitted in the thread that 7 turrets and a neut or nos was used with the mega, I'm not saying take the 7th slot away just the launcher hardpoint.

Zloco Crendraven wrote:


2 plates 2 eanm and a dc? Is not a solid tank?


NO just because you think It is does not make it so some people think pluging that explosive hole is important.



On the launcher thing. They do have uses, and giving the Hyperion alternative options is fine. Not everybody takes battleships out solely to blob 300 by 300 people at a time.
smoking gun81
Doomheim
#1532 - 2013-04-11 13:31:25 UTC  |  Edited by: smoking gun81
Tennessee Jack wrote:


On the launcher thing. They do have uses, and giving the Hyperion alternative options is fine. Not everybody takes battleships out solely to blob 300 by 300 people at a time.



No you're right even in the realms of PVE it would be more beneficial to fit something else than a launcher like:

A nos for incoming cap to help manage your local tank that you have a bonus to
A salvager to salvage ( this can also be done by drones now )
A tractor beam
A auto targeter module
a smartbomb
a neut

You also save space for all them lovley cap boost charges you are eating due to dual or even triple reps.

While on the supject of cap injection please adjust the cargo bay slightly on the Hyperion anything more than it is now.
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1533 - 2013-04-11 14:14:10 UTC
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
seems like the navy brutix will kill off the new mega before it has started :(



WTF?
Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#1534 - 2013-04-11 14:20:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Gabriel Karade
Rise,

Not sure if you are still looking for feedback, but after fiddling around with potential setups I think we're almost there:

On the Megathron, I would suggest it follows the Kronos approach to drone bay - 75/125, so that it sticks with the 'stronger gunboat' theme, but as a Gallente boat retains it's drone flexibilty and logically scales up from T1 to T2.

I think the Hyperion is there, the Dominix; we'll see.

War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
#1535 - 2013-04-11 14:25:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Phoenix Torp
Gabriel Karade wrote:
Rise,

Not sure if you are still be looking for feedback, but after fiddling around with potential setups I think we're almost there:

On the Megathron, I would suggest to follow the Kronos approach to drone bay - 75/125, so that it sticks with the 'stronger gunboat' theme, but as a Gallente boat retains it's drone flexibilty and logically scales up from T1 to T2.

I think the Hyperion is there, the Dominix; we'll see.


I see that the problem with Mega is the problem with hybrids: range. But if you change range, you have lasers (by the cap approach, not the no-cap approach of Minma projectiles). I did severals posts months ago and see they have taken the right approach (Maels have 9x m/s and Mega have 12x m/s), but will be matter that someone test it in SiSi to see if it's enough with short-range blasters against AC's fitting TE's in those lows rised. Unluckly, I don't have time (university) to test it in SiSi.

http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel
#1536 - 2013-04-11 14:34:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Crazy KSK
Akirei Scytale wrote:


Actually, with 7 / 4 / 8, the new mega has better DPS at mid ranges than any fleet ship but an Abaddon, competitive mid-long range DPS only eclipsed by the Rokh, and everything necessary to tank like the best of them except a little more CPU. Without that CPU, it can have a tank equal to a Rokh's EHP with an inferior resist profile, or a perfectly balanced resist profile with about 7k EHP less than a Maelstrom.

Give the ship 600 base CPU and it will be an excellent fleet ship. The slot layout is the entire reason it can - with the wasted utility high (yes, wasted), it can't compete.

The thing about utility highs is they only apply to certain kinds of PvP. None of the items you could fit there matter outside about 25km range, except for a cyno, which is not something game breaking. The only fits that use that highslot are the ones fitting neuts for brawling (RRs are a waste in today's game). The thing about brawling megas is they benefit quite a bit from 8 lows - absurd gank or very solid tank become options, whereas before a mega couldn't fit a solid tank, only a decent one, without gimping its DPS. And honestly, megas tend to deplete their target's tank before they deplete its cap.

7 / 5 / 7 makes it a lot harder to justify a mega in a fleet - even if it got its 600 CPU, you're giving up a magstab for a tracking comp. This means it stops competing with the Mael and Abaddon in midrange (DPS plummets) and is just an inferior armor Rokh.

8 / 4 / 7 changes nothing from the current game, and keeps the ship completely unable to compete at all.

This is a good slot layout. The Hyperion gained a utility high to boot - there is still a ship that can blaster brawl with 7 lows, 5 mids and a heavy neut. Except now it has an even bigger tank. Because they chose to put the Hyperion in this role, it becomes a ship that might just be fleet viable as well - because of that massive base armor HP, it doesn't need to stack 2 plates to get to the 120-130k EHP range.

In short, there is still a heavy neuting blaster brawler, and Gallente just gained 2 potential fleet doctrine candidates. This is a win win, don't even try to complain dude.


so now if we left the mega alone with 7+1 4 7 as the fast attack BS
and made the hype 6 5 8 with 20% falloff bonus and 10% damage
gave the rep bonus to the domi alongside a 10% to all drone stats (controll range, damage, hp, speed, tracking,)

we would keep the well working mega
would get an even more awesome fleet BS that could use blasters at medium range
and a really good domi too

Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#1537 - 2013-04-11 15:02:46 UTC
smoking gun81 wrote:
No you're right even in the realms of PVE it would be more beneficial to fit something else than a launcher like:

A nos for incoming cap to help manage your local tank that you have a bonus to
A salvager to salvage ( this can also be done by drones now )
A tractor beam
A auto targeter module
a smartbomb
a neut

You also save space for all them lovley cap boost charges you are eating due to dual or even triple reps.

While on the supject of cap injection please adjust the cargo bay slightly on the Hyperion anything more than it is now.




For PvE?

You are funny, or just don't ever PvE.

Nos has a very marginal affect.
Salvager/Tractors maybe on a Kronos with the tractor bonus, otherwise Noctis or drones.
Auto Targeter isn't something you see alot of--- at least for mission running you tend to need to be careful of your targets.
Smartbomb maybe in low or null. They are potentially a death sentence in high sec, griefer types like to cloak up next to you for concordokken fun.
Neuts are 100% useless in PvE

With decent missle skills, even an unbonused light launcher works well for frigate control in PvE, especially if you dont carry light drones or carry salvager drones in place of a combat flight of lights. In addition, by the standards of a battleships powergrid and CPU light missle launchers are practically free, and even Rapid Light launchers are nearly negligeable, though their performance over standard light launchers are not worth their cost in fittings---but if you have it to spare, who cares?

Somewhat more useful, if you happen to be fitting rails and using light drones is a Drone Link Augmentor. An extra 20K or so of range on some lights can add beween 80 to 100 dps to more distant targets. Again, if you like using drones on an extended basis in PvE a small armor repairer can occasionally see use as well.

I'm personally a fan of a few utility launchers on most hulls, the same way drones have been added as utility on many hulls. You don't have to fit them, and they may not be optimal in many situations, but I personally favor having the option. For PvE, there are few highslot items that would be more useful, and most of them in very niche applications. A little bit of selectable, assured damage is always welcome.
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#1538 - 2013-04-11 15:18:35 UTC
wallenbergaren wrote:
Asuka Solo wrote:
Use the extra low slots and fit modules to boost your falloff.

If you want to shield tank a blaster boat with falloff bonuses, fly a Rokh.


You mean a Deimos, a blaster ship that actually has a falloff bonus?

Falloff bonuses are great for blaster boats and I agree that the Mega should have one instead of the tracking bonus.
I'm inclined to agree here. I think the Mega's bonus should be +5% ROF and +5% Falloff per level, and the slot layout should be adjusted to 7/5/7--it still gives you the ROF bonus, and the falloff bonus allows you to apply damage in a larger engagement envelope (something blasters definitely need), all while not competing with the Talos' tracking bonus. What's more, the 7/5/7 slot layout is more flexible, allowing a TC in that fifth mid if you wanted to track harder, and much more flexibility if you wanted to go with a shield-tanking/high agility fit.

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Macomb
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1539 - 2013-04-11 15:25:36 UTC
I totally understand the initiative here, to give current battleships distinctive roles.

However, please dont touch dominix... or tweak the changes a bit.

the turret nerf will make its already-horrible-dps even worse....
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1540 - 2013-04-11 15:34:33 UTC
Macomb wrote:
I totally understand the initiative here, to give current battleships distinctive roles.

However, please dont touch dominix... or tweak the changes a bit.

the turret nerf will make its already-horrible-dps even worse....


With the standard Domi and sentry drones I get 800 dps (drone damage mods of course), not including guns. How much dps do yo consider good?