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Should nullsec industry > hisec industry?

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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1121 - 2013-04-10 16:58:57 UTC
Yeep wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:


So you're saying that something is ok because you can just choose to suffer through it?

That's insane. Who does that? Do you?

If you were forced by circumstance to do things you'd rather not in a game (because the alternative is even more sucky stuff you'd have to do), your tune would change.

No one is asking for perfection, simply EQUAL opportunity. Hell, not even equal, high sec people get FOR FREE all the things the null industrialist want but will have to pay for in time and effort.



"Ok" and "broken" are 2 very different words. One is for improvement, one is for fixing.

You're insane if you think they mean the same thing =).

It's "ok" to have to take the stairs once in awhile.

The elevator was "broken" and would do nothing when I pushed the button.

"Suffering" through something that's not as cool as you want is something you opt to do. You don't have the play something you feel makes you suffer.

For instance. I HATE being camped in a station. I can logoff, use a jc, or simply wait it out.

Doesn't mean the act of station camping is broken.


Except in this case 0.0 is an apartment block with an empty lift shaft and a set of stairs and sure you could try to climb up the inside of the lift shaft but you might fall and die and only one person can climb per day so you're better off just getting used to using the stairs.

Or you could move to the other apartment block with the free teleporter.

Murk Paradox wrote:

But no. People want that isk. So yea I can totally agree with null needing more slots to meet the demand. Most definitely. It's there fights are even DESIGNED to be had (through various conflict drivers).


Given the choice of performing two different tasks with the same result (a thing to sell on the market) why would you not choose the one that also makes you more profit. Your argument here is really "why don't nullsec people do stupid things to prove a point?".



If you want to prove something is broken, the best way to do that is to not use it.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#1122 - 2013-04-10 17:07:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Does anybody really expect change?

The Mittani wrote:
Ignore Industrialists: In an alliance or corporation, industrialists are completely irrelevant and should never be allowed a voice in anything.

Sins of a Solar Spymaster #88: Mittani's Maxims – On Management
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1123 - 2013-04-10 17:10:36 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Does anybody really expect change?

The Mittani wrote:
Ignore Industrialists: In an alliance or corporation, industrialists are completely irrelevant and should never be allowed a voice in anything.

Sins of a Solar Spymaster #88: Mittani's Maxims – On Management


Look at the date.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#1124 - 2013-04-10 17:13:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
Murk Paradox wrote:

So you have the choice, and opt for the one that makes you more money. Which is fine.

But that also contradicts saying you CAN'T because it's broken and not working as CCP intended.

You either can, or can't, build the crap in null.


Stuff can be built in null - fact
Stuff can be bought in empire, carted to null, and be had cheaper than built in null and easier - fact.

However, this is kind of the same argument that you have at home. Let's say you like making pasta (as in flour + salt + water actually making the dough).

You can make pasta at home in quantities of say 5 pounds (approx 2.5 kilos) per week, because you're making your own flour (OMGWTF!), and you're already at the limits of your wheat production. The actual pasta-making process is (let's say) 3 hours from start to finish, for every 5 pound batch.

Now, you have a party coming up at the end of the week, and you're gonna be serving pasta to 60. Next week, you've promised to serve the same number of people ... and the week after that ... and so on.

You have three options --

1. somehow ramp up flour generation (i.e. mining) to cover your needs. However, you're now limited by the fact that you need 9 hours/week (on top of your day job and whatever else) to actually make the pasta. Not to mention there's a point where you're better off with

2. buy enough flour to cover your needs. You have to account for storage/transport (because 20 pounds of flour is bulky), and you're still needing to do that 9 hours of work, so you may be better off with

3. say "**** it" and just buy the damn pasta ready made from someone else. You save 9 hours of work/week, and can easily make your commitments of "enough pasta for everyone!", which leaves your "manufacturing slots" available for the more important things (cookies/cake/pie/whatever ... i.e. caps/supers/titans/whatever).

you obviously go for the third option, because your time and other resources are important, and it makes the most sense for you. Obviously, you may still make yourself pasta from time to time (because it tastes better or whatever).

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1125 - 2013-04-10 17:13:53 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Enough with all the steps and lift nonsence, you lot are making this way more complicated than it needs to be.



Simple fact is that 0.0 badly lacks the slots for industry and simply setting up a huge POS network to get those slots wont work because you will be undercut by people building stuff in highsec and just shipping it out for a fraction of the cost.



This is true.

Damn that player ran market.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1126 - 2013-04-10 17:15:21 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:

So you have the choice, and opt for the one that makes you more money. Which is fine.

But that also contradicts saying you CAN'T because it's broken and not working as CCP intended.

You either can, or can't, build the crap in null.


Stuff can be built in null - fact
Stuff can be bought in empire, carted to null, and be had cheaper than built in null - fact.

However, this is kind of the same argument that you have at home. Let's say you like making pasta (as in flour + salt + water actually making the dough).

You can make pasta at home in quantities of say 5 pounds (approx 2.5 kilos) per week, because you're making your own flour (OMGWTF!), and you're already at the limits of your wheat production. The actual pasta-making process is (let's say) 3 hours from start to finish, for every 5 pound batch.

Now, you have a party coming up at the end of the week, and you're gonna be serving pasta to 60. Next week, you've promised to serve the same number of people ... and the week after that ... and so on.

You have three options --

1. somehow ramp up flour generation (i.e. mining) to cover your needs. However, you're now limited by the fact that you need 9 hours/week (on top of your day job and whatever else) to actually make the pasta. Not to mention there's a point where you're better off with

2. buy enough flour to cover your needs. You have to account for storage/transport (because 20 pounds of flour is bulky), and you're still needing to do that 9 hours of work, so you may be better off with

3. say "**** it" and just buy the damn pasta ready made from someone else. You save 9 hours of work/week, and can easily make your commitments of "enough pasta for everyone!", which leaves your "manufacturing slots" available for the more important things (cookies/cake/pie/whatever ... i.e. caps/supers/titans/whatever).



None of these leads to how industry is broken "because of highsec".

I do agree that nullsec needs more slots. The efficiency needs to be ramped up a notch or 20.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
BoBoZoBo
MGroup9
#1127 - 2013-04-10 17:15:58 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Does anybody really expect change?

The Mittani wrote:
Ignore Industrialists: In an alliance or corporation, industrialists are completely irrelevant and should never be allowed a voice in anything.

Sins of a Solar Spymaster #88: Mittani's Maxims – On Management



They do expect change, but change in the system to conform to their view - not in the way they think themselves.

Anyone who disagrees with the agenda is all of a sudden ignorant or knows nothing about nullsec. Assuming so much is a pretty funny state of mind when you are trying to solve a problem.

Just goes to prove you can never escape the way you think... or don't think.

Primary Test Subject • SmackTalker Elite
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#1128 - 2013-04-10 17:16:47 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Look at the date.

Shhhh!
Dave Stark
#1129 - 2013-04-10 17:21:48 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Does anybody really expect change?

The Mittani wrote:
Ignore Industrialists: In an alliance or corporation, industrialists are completely irrelevant and should never be allowed a voice in anything.

Sins of a Solar Spymaster #88: Mittani's Maxims – On Management


late to the party, i posted this pages ago.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1130 - 2013-04-10 17:22:39 UTC
is it really an april fool's thing? it sounds normal enough?

The Mittani, Ten Ton Hammer http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/249413/page/2 wrote:
Ignore Industrialists: In an alliance or corporation, industrialists are completely irrelevant and should never be allowed a voice in anything. Sound extreme? It isn’t. An industrialist is not a logistician, but a ‘producer’. Producers live in hisec in countless numbers, and anything that is built there can simply be imported from Jita with a jump freighter - by a logistician. Logisticians matter in alliances; so do financiers, diplomats, and most of all warriors. Producers do not. There has never been a war in the history of EVE which was won by an advantage in local production; the hobbits of ASCN believed their own propaganda and assured each other that production mattered, but they were crushed utterly by Band of Brothers. Take after the words of House Greyjoy: ‘We Do Not Sow’. Be particularly wary of capital/supercapital producers, who are often wealthy and consider themselves to be above alliance rules. Alliances have no need of ‘industrial wings’, ‘industrial directors’ - none of it.


that 'everything gets imported from jita' bit sounds familiar, and it makes a lot more sense if the entire thing is quoted

imma prepared to admit ignorance if it's a joke but it doesn't sound too much like one
Velicitia
XS Tech
#1131 - 2013-04-10 17:26:26 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:

None of these leads to how industry is broken "because of highsec".

I do agree that nullsec needs more slots. The efficiency needs to be ramped up a notch or 20.


Nullsec as a whole = about 5% the industrial capacity of empire

Nullsec alliance 1 = holds 100 systems (IIRC, roughly 10% of null). at absolute best, this means that they have 0.5% the industrial capacity of empire. Builds everything in house

Nullsec alliance 2 = holds 5 systems, import everything.

Everything else, with the exception of material is exactly the same difference -- alliance 2 is 1/20th the size, has 1/20th the raw skill, etc.

For every 1 ship that alliance 1 can build, alliance 2 can import 99.5.

At this point, it doesn't matter if alliance 1 has 20 trillion ISK ... they simply cannot replace ships and modules near fast enough to compete long term with Alliance 2.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Dave Stark
#1132 - 2013-04-10 17:27:37 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
is it really an april fool's thing?


we'll never know. it only has an upload date, not a time.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1133 - 2013-04-10 17:29:24 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
is it really an april fool's thing?


we'll never know. it only has an upload date, not a time.

i don't read anything that really seems out of place. if it's a joke, i don't get it.
Dave Stark
#1134 - 2013-04-10 17:31:21 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
is it really an april fool's thing?


we'll never know. it only has an upload date, not a time.

i don't read anything that really seems out of place. if it's a joke, i don't get it.

i agree.

also it's not tmc so i'm not sure he could have known it was going up on the 1st, but then again you never know.
still, grain of salt and all.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1135 - 2013-04-10 17:33:26 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:

None of these leads to how industry is broken "because of highsec".

I do agree that nullsec needs more slots. The efficiency needs to be ramped up a notch or 20.


Nullsec as a whole = about 5% the industrial capacity of empire

Nullsec alliance 1 = holds 100 systems (IIRC, roughly 10% of null). at absolute best, this means that they have 0.5% the industrial capacity of empire. Builds everything in house

Nullsec alliance 2 = holds 5 systems, import everything.

Everything else, with the exception of material is exactly the same difference -- alliance 2 is 1/20th the size, has 1/20th the raw skill, etc.

For every 1 ship that alliance 1 can build, alliance 2 can import 99.5.

At this point, it doesn't matter if alliance 1 has 20 trillion ISK ... they simply cannot replace ships and modules near fast enough to compete long term with Alliance 2.



Stop with the "of empire" that's the flaw.

Just say "null needs more slots". That's all you need.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#1136 - 2013-04-10 17:36:13 UTC
Yeep wrote:


Given the choice of performing two different tasks with the same result (a thing to sell on the market) why would you not choose the one that also makes you more profit. Your argument here is really "why don't nullsec people do stupid things to prove a point?".


Damn, even the Goons get it.


:)
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1137 - 2013-04-10 17:52:25 UTC
Awhile back I watched this cool movie called "The Count of Monte Cristo". The newer one. With Mr. Harris (R.I.P).

There's one scene where Mercedes is talking to the soon to be Count Mondego as they wait for Dantes to show back up from a meeting with the owner of the consignment business.

In the course of the dialogue Mercedes mentions, in response to Mondego's advances (romantic) about how when Mondego and Dantes were little, Mondego (a Count's son) was given a pony for his birthday, whereas Dantes was given a whistle.

Mondego, as a little boy, was bitter and angry and envious of the fact that Dantes, a fisherman's son, was more happy with his whistle than Mondego, a Count's son, was with his pony.

Mercedes then proceeds to tell Mondego she will not be his next "whistle".

Cool story I know, but I'm getting to the point.

When you want something fixed, you want to make sure something is broken. The fact you compare it to something else unrelated (it is unrelated, highsec has different rules and lifestyles) is only being envious and greedy.

You say nullsec needs more slots, and I agree.

If you want to focus on nullsec, I'm all for it.

But for the love of god stop making yourselves look like petulant children because highsec has something you don't.

Ride your pony and forget the whistle.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1138 - 2013-04-10 18:00:27 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Stop with the "of empire" that's the flaw.
Not really, no, since it shows the scale of the problem and since it points to the fact that it's a double-sided problem: the overabundance of highsec slots is just as much of a problem as the lack of nullsec slots.

Quote:
Just say "null needs more slots". That's all you need.
Actually, it's not. Null also needs to be made relatively cheaper compared to high. Unfortunately, since high is free, and you can't make it cheaper than free, it means that high needs to be more expensive.
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1139 - 2013-04-10 18:16:01 UTC
GUYS THE FLAW IN YOUR "PLAN" IS THAT IT REQUIRES AFFECTING SOMEONE NOT YOU GEEZ

- Totally not some random highsec publord

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#1140 - 2013-04-10 18:22:48 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:


Ride your pony and forget the whistle.


Too bad you got it back wards. High Sec has a pony, null sec has a whistle the pony swallowed and the we just not got back because the pony had a good BM after eating Mexican food last night. No the whistle (which is, oh, about 3% of a pony) is all crappy.

Also the high sec pony has 6 legs and breathes fire. We just want some epic pony action in null.