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Should nullsec industry > hisec industry?

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Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#1101 - 2013-04-10 14:58:29 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:


Better prices is not relevant to autonomy though. That's the crux I think.



We dont want better prices than high sec just the ability to match them when building out in 0.0.




Are you willing to give up sov null for that though? Meh, probably even null period come to think of it. Because it just sounds like you're wanting the baby without having the labor pains (not to be confrontational but I am calling it as I see it).

EDIT- That sounds harsh, sorry for that.

I just see how people are explaining to me how things are working and it proves it is working how it should, but then people say how it's broken.

To me it isn't broken, just people want it improved.


It is broken, null sec players should not be slaves to high sec interests. Dealing with high sec should be a matter of choice not necessity.


Players shouldn't be slaves to isk at all.

That's the problem. Because it is a choice. You can produce anything in null you need to survive. The possibility is there. What remains, is the choice to wait, or plan a much more detailed oriented program to get the same things from highsec (albeit cheaper).

It does work, just not as well as you'd like. That's why it's a choice.


So you're saying that something is ok because you can just choose to suffer through it?

That's insane. Who does that? Do you?

If you were forced by circumstance to do things you'd rather not in a game (because the alternative is even more sucky stuff you'd have to do), your tune would change.

No one is asking for perfection, simply EQUAL opportunity. Hell, not even equal, high sec people get FOR FREE all the things the null industrialist want but will have to pay for in time and effort.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#1102 - 2013-04-10 15:01:28 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:


Better prices is not relevant to autonomy though. That's the crux I think.



We dont want better prices than high sec just the ability to match them when building out in 0.0.




Are you willing to give up sov null for that though? Meh, probably even null period come to think of it. Because it just sounds like you're wanting the baby without having the labor pains (not to be confrontational but I am calling it as I see it).



Well if by "labour pains" you mean "getting thousands of invulnerable stations for free", then no I guess we don't go through that.


"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1103 - 2013-04-10 15:12:12 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
So then null is 99% self sufficient, just not as profitable as people would like?


Ahaha what no basically everything used in 0.0 is imported, it's far from 99% self-sufficient

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
addelee
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#1104 - 2013-04-10 15:18:13 UTC
Andski wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
So then null is 99% self sufficient, just not as profitable as people would like?


Ahaha what no basically everything used in 0.0 is imported, it's far from 99% self-sufficient


I agree. T1 stuff is normally built where we are (i.e. ammo, ships, rigs) but everything else gets imported. Building anything T2 or above becomes a chore in null as the amount of components required for manufacture are a) often not available and b) high in price therefore it becomes a neccassity to import t2 stuff due to cost alone.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1105 - 2013-04-10 15:28:47 UTC
addelee wrote:
Andski wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
So then null is 99% self sufficient, just not as profitable as people would like?


Ahaha what no basically everything used in 0.0 is imported, it's far from 99% self-sufficient


I agree. T1 stuff is normally built where we are (i.e. ammo, ships, rigs) but everything else gets imported. Building anything T2 or above becomes a chore in null as the amount of components required for manufacture are a) often not available and b) high in price therefore it becomes a neccassity to import t2 stuff due to cost alone.



Theres not enough slots in 0.0 to keep up with ammo demand in peacetime let alone when at war.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1106 - 2013-04-10 15:34:05 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
That makes sense, ty for that. But it still begs the question.... if it's null sec why does it have to be a market? In theory couldn't an alliance have buy agreements since we are talking about keeping the materials internal for consumption?

I guess what I'm trying to do, is see if you NEED the MARKET to compare null mining to highsec mining. Why not eliminate that factor (granted it also eliminates the argument heh but that's the point)?


i'll admit; i don't exactly get what you mean.

but, i'll answer it in the best way i can.
null sec only has use for a fraction of the minerals mined in null sec, as i pointed out. therefore the remainder of the minerals will be exported and sold else where. this means null sec alliances would be agreeing to pay their miners above jita price for what?
alternatively they could just let their miners export it to jita, buy it at jita prices, and bring it back to null sec. which also puts a limit on how much you can sell your zyd/mega for locally (price of the mineral at jita price + logistics costs) even at that "above jita price" the demand is so small and the supply exceeds it such that it'll quickly fall to jita price or below.

then again if you're importing things, you may as well import whole modules and whole ships rather than the materials (mynnna wrote about it in his tritanium bottleneck article on themittani why it'd be better to import stuff rather than materials, he explains it better than i would)

hence if you're importing everything from high sec, you need to send your stuff to high sec so the producers can purchase your raw materials, which means it goes to jita. so there's really no way around giving minerals a market price.



Well, I'm lookin at what Jenn said about being "99% self sufficient" and looking at things with the same eye you would use watching Walking Dead.

Terms of survival without using highsec. Like, can't you get the same ore and minerals from reprocessing loot gotten from wrecks and rats? And those anoms? I see TONS of wrecks from rats that are unlooted in null all the time.

Not counting pure salvage, that's a lot of minerals. In fact, due to my own laziness I loot my bs wrecks and always just process the stuff that doesn't have a buy order for it.


you can be self sufficient, however you've then got to look at the ratios of minerals that come out of a grav site. as i said, by nature 0.0 must overproduce on things like mega/zyd.

two things can happen, we export it to jita. bam, market price.
we separate null and high sec, no interaction what so ever; trit is now worth 30k per unit, and megacyte is less useful than a condom vending machine in the vatican. well perhaps nothing that extreme but the demand on stuff in null sec is higher than locally sourced minerals can provide with regards to low ends. (the most lucrative grav site in null has 0 veld, scord, and pyrox, or something. it's 3 of the common low ends, cba to go check but you get the point)

(i may need to edit this, forums went full ****** on me. give me a moment)
edit: meta 0 no longer drops, and iirc meta 1-4 reprocesses to less minerals or something? not quite sure on that one, i don't reprocess a lot of modules, and when i do i sure as **** don't check what i'm actually getting.

look at the chinese server, that's exactly what they do. then look at their ship prices. demand is bigger than supply, because they don't mine on serenity, they reprocess all their rat loot. or, so i've been led to believe.



Yea that's my basis for comparison. What works and what doesn't, but more importantly... why?

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Dave Stark
#1107 - 2013-04-10 15:37:13 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Yea that's my basis for comparison. What works and what doesn't, but more importantly... why?


why what? why does nobody mine on serenity? *shrug* no idea.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#1108 - 2013-04-10 15:43:48 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Yea that's my basis for comparison. What works and what doesn't, but more importantly... why?


why what? why does nobody mine on serenity? *shrug* no idea.


I think Mark meant in general what works and what doesn't, not specifically to "no one mines on Serenity".

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Yeep
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1109 - 2013-04-10 15:46:27 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:

That's the problem. Because it is a choice. You can produce anything in null you need to survive. The possibility is there. What remains, is the choice to wait, or plan a much more detailed oriented program to get the same things from highsec (albeit cheaper).


And this is where your policy of avoiding the volume argument breaks down. Importing and production both have setup and maintenance costs (ISK and human). You can't produce enough to meet demand but you can import so why go through the pain of setting up and maintaining two systems at the same time when one can provide everything you need (and coincidentally do it cheaper too).
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1110 - 2013-04-10 16:19:18 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:


So you're saying that something is ok because you can just choose to suffer through it?

That's insane. Who does that? Do you?

If you were forced by circumstance to do things you'd rather not in a game (because the alternative is even more sucky stuff you'd have to do), your tune would change.

No one is asking for perfection, simply EQUAL opportunity. Hell, not even equal, high sec people get FOR FREE all the things the null industrialist want but will have to pay for in time and effort.



"Ok" and "broken" are 2 very different words. One is for improvement, one is for fixing.

You're insane if you think they mean the same thing =).

It's "ok" to have to take the stairs once in awhile.

The elevator was "broken" and would do nothing when I pushed the button.

"Suffering" through something that's not as cool as you want is something you opt to do. You don't have the play something you feel makes you suffer.

For instance. I HATE being camped in a station. I can logoff, use a jc, or simply wait it out.

Doesn't mean the act of station camping is broken.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1111 - 2013-04-10 16:25:50 UTC
Andski wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Without going in to playerbase #s and all that, out of curiosity.. what can NOT be built in nullsec? Don't tell me about availability, we all know slots are taken up. But I'm curious as to what that 1% non efficiency is.

If null is "supposed" to be 99% efficient, what CAN'T be built there?

If it's something inane like a t3 ship you can go to hell btw, because a t3 is not "required" to be self sufficient.


let's put it this way: anything can be built in nullsec, but it isn't, and the difference in efficiency is far more than 1%

the only thing I bother building in 0.0 is the frigates we need for our newbie program, simply because the quantities I need to provide are impossible to source in Jita at times and because it's more efficient to ship uncompressed minerals in a jump freighter than hulls



Andski wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
So then null is 99% self sufficient, just not as profitable as people would like?


Ahaha what no basically everything used in 0.0 is imported, it's far from 99% self-sufficient


So you have the choice, and opt for the one that makes you more money. Which is fine.

But that also contradicts saying you CAN'T because it's broken and not working as CCP intended.

You either can, or can't, build the crap in null.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
ISD Flidais Asagiri
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#1112 - 2013-04-10 16:28:36 UTC
Greetings

This is a great thread, some of the most coherent discussion on the forums. I do not wish to lock this thread due to trolling, off topic rants, or pyramid posting. If you feel you must quote someone then grab only what you need in order to make your point.
Keep the discussion rolling

On On

ISD Flidais Asagiri Lt. Commander Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#1113 - 2013-04-10 16:29:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Murk Paradox wrote:

It's "ok" to have to take the stairs once in awhile.


Null sec is forced to use the stairs everytime (it only has 3% of an elevator after all) to get to a roach infested studio apartment on the 50th floor that null sec has to pay $2000 a month for..

Meanwhile high sec gets free rocket propelled elevator service to the penthouse suite complete with half-naked Swedish maid service and all the Cavier high sec can eat, FOR FREE (and without even having to look at local).

Yea, it's that broken.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1114 - 2013-04-10 16:40:10 UTC
Yeep wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:

That's the problem. Because it is a choice. You can produce anything in null you need to survive. The possibility is there. What remains, is the choice to wait, or plan a much more detailed oriented program to get the same things from highsec (albeit cheaper).


And this is where your policy of avoiding the volume argument breaks down. Importing and production both have setup and maintenance costs (ISK and human). You can't produce enough to meet demand but you can import so why go through the pain of setting up and maintaining two systems at the same time when one can provide everything you need (and coincidentally do it cheaper too).



That definitely lends to the argument I agree with that null needs more slots.

But using the reason "because of the highsec market" is a redundancy because building your own sustained market, which is the grounds of having sov (if I'm to believe what sov holders claim) shouldn't in theory have anything to do with highsec markets.

But no. People want that isk. So yea I can totally agree with null needing more slots to meet the demand. Most definitely. It's there fights are even DESIGNED to be had (through various conflict drivers).

My argument comes from the "because of highsec" bs. Eliminate that ****. Stop worrying about highsec. I'm all for advocating pro null, but focus on that. Especially if you want it to be autonomous.

Saying otherwise breaks your own argument up into tiny bits.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Yeep
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1115 - 2013-04-10 16:46:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Yeep
Murk Paradox wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:


So you're saying that something is ok because you can just choose to suffer through it?

That's insane. Who does that? Do you?

If you were forced by circumstance to do things you'd rather not in a game (because the alternative is even more sucky stuff you'd have to do), your tune would change.

No one is asking for perfection, simply EQUAL opportunity. Hell, not even equal, high sec people get FOR FREE all the things the null industrialist want but will have to pay for in time and effort.



"Ok" and "broken" are 2 very different words. One is for improvement, one is for fixing.

You're insane if you think they mean the same thing =).

It's "ok" to have to take the stairs once in awhile.

The elevator was "broken" and would do nothing when I pushed the button.

"Suffering" through something that's not as cool as you want is something you opt to do. You don't have the play something you feel makes you suffer.

For instance. I HATE being camped in a station. I can logoff, use a jc, or simply wait it out.

Doesn't mean the act of station camping is broken.


Except in this case 0.0 is an apartment block with an empty lift shaft and a set of stairs and sure you could try to climb up the inside of the lift shaft but you might fall and die and only one person can climb per day so you're better off just getting used to using the stairs.

Or you could move to the other apartment block with the free teleporter.

Murk Paradox wrote:

But no. People want that isk. So yea I can totally agree with null needing more slots to meet the demand. Most definitely. It's there fights are even DESIGNED to be had (through various conflict drivers).


Given the choice of performing two different tasks with the same result (a thing to sell on the market) why would you not choose the one that also makes you more profit. Your argument here is really "why don't nullsec people do stupid things to prove a point?".
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1116 - 2013-04-10 16:47:30 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
So you have the choice, and opt for the one that makes you more money. Which is fine.

But that also contradicts saying you CAN'T because it's broken and not working as CCP intended.

You either can, or can't, build the crap in null.


Frigates being built in nullsec is a prime example of self-sufficiency, yes

Are you trolling

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1117 - 2013-04-10 16:51:39 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:

It's "ok" to have to take the stairs once in awhile.


Null sec is forced to use the stairs everytime (it only has 3% of an elevator after all) to get to a roach infested studio apartment on the 50th floor that null sec has to pay $2000 a month for..

Meanwhile high sec gets free rocket propelled elevator service to the penthouse suite complete with half-naked Swedish maid service and all the Cavier high sec can eat, FOR FREE (and without even having to look at local).

Yea, it's that broken.



Go to highsec and enjoy the view then.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1118 - 2013-04-10 16:52:18 UTC
Andski wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
So you have the choice, and opt for the one that makes you more money. Which is fine.

But that also contradicts saying you CAN'T because it's broken and not working as CCP intended.

You either can, or can't, build the crap in null.


Frigates being built in nullsec is a prime example of self-sufficiency, yes

Are you trolling



Eh? Sounds like you are trying to troll yourself there m8.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1119 - 2013-04-10 16:54:15 UTC
"nullsec industry is fine because they build frigates"

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1120 - 2013-04-10 16:57:00 UTC
Enough with all the steps and lift nonsence, you lot are making this way more complicated than it needs to be.



Simple fact is that 0.0 badly lacks the slots for industry and simply setting up a huge POS network to get those slots wont work because you will be undercut by people building stuff in highsec and just shipping it out for a fraction of the cost.