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Marauders buffs
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Lithorn
State War Academy
Caldari State
#141 - 2013-04-09 19:15:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Lithorn
Derath Ellecon wrote:
supernova ranger wrote:
So I can finally fly Marauders but won't even buy one cause they are useless. Their role to mission and salvage is over with a noctis present and their firepower is less then that of their pirate counterparts while being just as expensive.

I'd like to see the Marauders kept in play but used more effectively where noctises can't go. I think by giving them bonuses to target spectrum breakers, +warp core stabilization, and the re-target lock time reduced for de-cloaking would be a good starting place to see them move into lowsec to do missions.



First, marauders will get a balance pass at some point. And I am not saying they don't need some updates. But they are not as bad as you seem to claim.

I don't have experience with all of them, but I can talk about the Kronos/vindicator.

Using similar fits (both standard incursion fits) they actually perform similarily.

Kronos with blasters and Void does 1361 DPS
Vindicator with blasters and void does 1456DPS

Kronos does it however with only 4 turrets vs 8. So lower cap usage and ammo costs.
Kronos can fit utility in the highs. For example in incursions it can save the day when a logi disconnects (been in that situation several times).
Kronos has standard T2 resists.

At current sell prices they cost:

Kronos- 850,000000.00
Vindicator- 1,500,000,000.00

So in reality, the Kronos is about half the cost of the Vindicator. Does similar damage with half the guns. The only real thing the Vindicator has going for it is a lower training time.


Bottom line, yes they could still use some balancing. But they aren't as horrible as you are making them out to be.


Marauders as a whole have been displaced by their pirate faction brethren, I do not resent the pirate factions, I happen to like them. The training time to get them to come close to performing to their pirate equivalent is drastically longer.
I would dispute your claim of t2 resists, none of the t2 battleships have better tank than their t1 counterparts, if anything its possibly worse.
They are considerably more complex, more expensive and resource intensive to create (Marauders that is) from scratch.
(Invention chances of a Marauder are OBSCENELY bad, that's an entirely different topic I suppose)
I would like to see them improved in many respects, and not just from a piloting perspective as I don't find them that useful anymore either.
Ship bonuses aside, certain races like the Minmatar could use more grid and cpu for instance.
PavlikX
Scan Stakan
HOLD MY PROBS
#142 - 2013-04-09 21:03:40 UTC
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
PavlikX wrote:
Quote:
I noticed another post on this forum about the 'tiericide' of the BS class, are the tech 2 BS going to fall into those catergories as well (battle and combat)?

No. T2 ships are not in the programm of tiercide

This says otherwise.

Whoever told you T2 ships will not be rebalanced is an idiot.

Well, i surender against your proofs :)
And mention please that i said T2 ships will be not rebalanced as a part of tiercide programm, but i've never said that they will not be rebalanced at all. T2 ships have no tier levels.
androch
LitlCorp
#143 - 2013-04-09 22:20:22 UTC
i find it funny that you ignorant fools only look at its hp in eft before actually flying them, their higher resists make their tank better, the active shield bonus makes it rep for more than it gets hit for, therefore resists+boost bonus= better tank and higher dps than its t1 counterpart
Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
#144 - 2013-04-09 22:56:53 UTC
androch wrote:
i find it funny that you ignorant fools only look at its hp in eft before actually flying them, their higher resists make their tank better, the active shield bonus makes it rep for more than it gets hit for, therefore resists+boost bonus= better tank and higher dps than its t1 counterpart


ignorant fool? lets watch the name calling nooblet.
i prolly lost more marauders than youve owned before you even started playing the game.
****, i was on my 3rd by 07ish? they arent all they are cracked up to be.
i have one because i wish for the day itll actually do something other than be "shiney". and i dont want that marauder 5 sitting there lonely.. =\
Tarion Dalarel
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#145 - 2013-04-10 00:04:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Tarion Dalarel
Just some values to play after a short brainstorming... cut off whatever you want this are just some suggestions:

EVE Marauders reworked
Geared toward versatility and prolonged deployment in hostile environments, Marauders represent the cutting edge in today’s warship technology. While especially effective at support suppression and wreckage salvaging, they possess comparatively weak sensor strength and may find themselves at increased risk of sensor jamming. Nevertheless, these thick-skinned, hard-hitting monsters are the perfect ships to take on long trips behind enemy lines.


Paladin

Amarr Battleship Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to large energy weapons damage per level
10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level
10% bonus to afterburner velocity per level

Marauder Skill Bonus:
7.5% bonus to repair amount of armor repair systems per level
7,5% bonus to large energy turret tracking
5% bonus to large energy weapon optimal range

Role Bonus:
125% bonus to large energy weapon damage
100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams
+2 warp strengh

Additional change
25% bonus to capacitor capacity
5% more shield hp / 10% more armor hp / 5% more structure hp
10% more velocity
5% more agility
28 points sensor strength or 1 med slot for sensor strenght mod


Golem

Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to cruise missile and rate of fire per level
10% bonus to effectiveness of target painters per level
10% bonus to afterburner velocity per level

Marauders Skill Bonus:
7.5% bonus to shield boost amount per level
7,5% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo explosion velocity per level
7,5% to cruise missile and 15% to torpedo velocity per level

Role Bonus:
125% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo damage
100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams
+2 warp strengh

Additional changes
10% more shield hp / 5% more armor hp / 5% more structure hp
10% more velocity
5% more agility
28 points sensor strength or 1 med slot for sensor strenght mod


Kronos

Gallente Battleship Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to large hybrid weapon damage per level
10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level
10% bonus to afterburner velocity per level

Marauder Skill Bonus:
7.5% bonus to repair amount of armor repair systems per level
7.5% bonus to large hybrid weapon tracking per level
5% bonus to large hybrid weapon optimal range

Role Bonus:
125% bonus to large hybrid weapon damage
100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams
+2 warp strengh

Additional changes
5% more shield hp / 10% more armor hp / 5% more structure hp
10% more velocity
5% more agility
150m³ drone hangar / 125m³ drone bandwidth
28 points sensor strength or 1 med slot for sensor strenght mod


Vargur

Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to large projectile turret rate of fire per level
10% bonus to effectiveness of target painters per level
10% bonus to afterburner velocity per level

Marauder Skill Bonus:
7.5% bonus to shield boost amount per level
7.5% bonus to large projectile turret tracking per level
12,5% bonus to large projectile turret falloff per level

Role Bonus:
125% bonus to large projectile weapon damage
100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams
+2 warp strengh

Additional changes
12,5% more powergrid
10% more shield hp / 5% more armor hp / 5% more structure hp
7,5% more velocity
5% more agility
1 additional med slot for target painter
28 points sensor strength or 1 med slot for sensor strenght mod
Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
#146 - 2013-04-10 14:01:47 UTC
kiddin right?
StrongSmartSexy
Phenix Revolution
#147 - 2013-04-10 15:15:48 UTC  |  Edited by: StrongSmartSexy
Given the proposed changes to battleships for Odyssey, it'll be interesting to see how Marauders will be touched on.
For instance, paladin's useless capacitor capacity bonus might well become the 7.5% tracking or 7.5% optimal range bonus the revamped apocalypse has.
Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
#148 - 2013-04-10 15:29:56 UTC
i am SO wanting to see something different about marauders.

taking the apoc bonuses would go along way in making a kewl ship. x2 damage, 50% range and 37.5% tracking.
sick!
now, lets add in the tech 2 bonuses...
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#149 - 2013-04-10 15:41:54 UTC
Mole Guy wrote:
i am SO wanting to see something different about marauders.

taking the apoc bonuses would go along way in making a kewl ship. x2 damage, 50% range and 37.5% tracking.
sick!
now, lets add in the tech 2 bonuses...

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Horse Feathers
CAStabouts
#150 - 2013-04-11 02:26:43 UTC
They will never be better than pirate counterparts, under the current system. T1 < Navy < T2 < Pirate is the current order of things.


That said, would it really kill them to at least have proper T2 resists?

thhief ghabmoef
SehrGute
Hunters of capsuleers
#151 - 2013-04-11 09:29:07 UTC
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:
They will never be better than pirate counterparts, under the current system. T1 < Navy < T2 < Pirate is the current order of things.


That said, would it really kill them to at least have proper T2 resists?



no it is:

Improvement
^
I
Pirate
............................ I................... Tech2
Tech3............Navy.....................
I
Tech1
I
<-------------------------------------------------------------->
generalization________________specialization




so a marauder is to be an improved navy ship, but with heavy specialization. the way I see it, is sins a tech3 is much more powerfull that an navy ship even as they are on the same improvement line, the generalization has to be a add on to improvement level.

In the same way, as a tech 2 is to be between pirate and navy on improvement level, the specialization has to be an add on witch must make tech2 as powerful or even more than pirate.

or we can just all agree that tech 3 is grossly overpowered.
Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#152 - 2013-04-11 13:41:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Hakan MacTrew
SehrGute wrote:
...or we can just all agree that tech 3 is grossly overpowered.

I was under the impression everyone DOES agree they are OP's. When was the last time someone argued against that statement?

Oh, and Tarion Dalarel, how broken does a ship have to be to need 9 bonuses? The pattern for T2 is 2 bonuses from the racial skill and 2 bonuses from the T2 specialisation. Maybe one or two role bonuses.

Friends
Funky Lazers
Funk Freakers
#153 - 2013-04-11 14:27:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Funky Lazers
Why Marauders suck for missions?! It's simple:
- Small resist bonus is useless. You don't need some uber tank for missions.
- Rep bonus is useless. The same as resists, you don't need that much of a tank.
- Low DPS. The damage is low compared to any Pirate ship (Mach, Nightmare and Vindi). You can't get 1400+ DPS with just T2 ammo on a marauder.
- Useless tractor bonus. Why is it useless? Because 1) Looting is not profitable. 2) It wastes time. 3) ISK/Hr is wrong and for newbs. The real thing is LP/Hr. Any real missions runner knows - you get lots of money not for shooting rats, but for getting LPs.
- Slow. Simply reduces your performance.
- Bad DPS tanking. Since the damage is low, you can't DPS tank efficiently. Which is why Pirate BS have a better tank, they just kill much faster.

On top of that there are few other minor things that make Marauders crappy:
- There is only one ~good Marauder - Vargur. Simply because this ship has no useless bonuses.
- There is only one bad Marauder - Kronos. This ship is bad because you can't change the damage type and has one useless bonus - Web one. But Kin/Therm damage types make it better than a Paladin.
- And you have other 2 useless Marauders - Paladin and Golem. Paladin sucks hard because it has useless Web bonus and can't change the damage type. And Golem just sucks almost at everything, just read This post.


Saying all of that I do not mean Marauders can't do missions or they perform too bad.
What I mean is Marauders perform worse than Pirate ships, which is ok, but also they perform worse/same than Navy ships.

I also think Marauders should perform the same as Pirate ships because: 1) the price is almost the same 2) takes more time to train for them 3) this is a mission specific ship, meaning high performance in this area.


StrongSmartSexy wrote:
Given the proposed changes to battleships for Odyssey, it'll be interesting to see how Marauders will be touched on.
For instance, paladin's useless capacitor capacity bonus might well become the 7.5% tracking or 7.5% optimal range bonus the revamped apocalypse has.


Lol, you're doing everything wrong.
Paladin's Cap bonus is great.
The only useless bonus is Web one, also Kronos has it too.

Any real carebear will tell you that. On missions you use ACs, Blasers and Pulses.
Long range weaps are not for missions. Yes, you can use them, but their performance is too crappy compared to Close range ones.

Whatever.
StrongSmartSexy
Phenix Revolution
#154 - 2013-04-11 18:53:30 UTC
Funky Lazers wrote:
Lol, you're doing everything wrong.
Paladin's Cap bonus is great.
The only useless bonus is Web one, also Kronos has it too.

Any real carebear will tell you that. On missions you use ACs, Blasers and Pulses.
Long range weaps are not for missions. Yes, you can use them, but their performance is too crappy compared to Close range ones.

No, you just can't read or don't want to. Paladin's cap bonus was addressed earlier:

At the time when Marauders were first released, the Apocalypse had a 5% bonus to capacitor amount and the Paladin was subsequently based off this bonus.
About a year later, the Apocalypse's capacitor bonus was changed to 7.5% optimal range of energy turrets, not only that but the ship was also given roughly 25% more base capacitor. The problem is, the Paladin never received this buff so it has been stuck with a mediocre bonus all this time while it's T1 hull essentially gained a whole new bonus.

Regardless of this, a cap bonus is unnecessary on a Paladin given that it already saves on capacitor use by having 4 turrets doing the damage of 8. Most people if given the choice, would opt for something much more useful like tracking or optimal range.

Also, you are analysing the webification bonus from a PVE standpoint as if it was guaranteed that Marauders are going to stay PVE focused when this is likely not going to be the case.
PVP-wise, the web bonus is amazing for slowing targets to a near-dead stop and bringing mega pulse or neutron blasters to bare.
Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
#155 - 2013-04-11 19:46:43 UTC
StrongSmartSexy wrote:
Funky Lazers wrote:
Lol, you're doing everything wrong.
Paladin's Cap bonus is great.
The only useless bonus is Web one, also Kronos has it too.

Any real carebear will tell you that. On missions you use ACs, Blasers and Pulses.
Long range weaps are not for missions. Yes, you can use them, but their performance is too crappy compared to Close range
ones.

No, you just can't read or don't want to. Paladin's cap bonus was addressed earlier:

At the time when Marauders were first released, the Apocalypse had a 5% bonus to capacitor amount and the Paladin was subsequently based off this bonus.
About a year later, the Apocalypse's capacitor bonus was changed to 7.5% optimal range of energy turrets, not only that but
the ship was also given roughly 25% more base capacitor. The problem is, the Paladin never received this buff so it has been
stuck with a mediocre bonus all this time while it's T1 hull essentially gained a whole new bonus.

Regardless of this, a cap bonus is unnecessary on a Paladin given that it already saves on capacitor use by having 4 turrets
doing the damage of 8. Most people if given the choice, would opt for something much more useful like tracking or optimal range.

Also, you are analysing the webification bonus from a PVE standpoint as if it was guaranteed that Marauders are going
to stay PVE focused when this is likely not going to be the case.
PVP-wise, the web bonus is amazing for slowing targets to a near-dead stop and bringing mega pulse or neutron blasters to
bare.


lets see, 90%, 14km or more web? yeah thats pretty stout. still makes it hard for mega pulse II to hit frigs. especially with scorch
or conflag.
i dig the web bonus, but its not a pvp ship. for pve, its meh. it works to slow frigs so my hob gobs can chew it up.
something good like the old drakes "i win" button would be kewl, but i enjoy playing, not "always being the victor". =)

the "pve only" was doomed from the start. its fail. just like shield tanking a meggy, people are going to do what they feel is right
to adapt to a situation. if we have shield logi, the buffer tank and gank fit the bottom. so, to force me to fly pve only is lame.
back in the day, ok..but the gamehas evolved SO much since then its ashame. shameful that the kewl marauder class has
fallen by the whey side.
i LOVE where the game is going. toughter ships. specialized ships, different ships for combination. the marauder can find a nice hole to fill. a niche that it alone can cuddle up in and become desirable again. i love my paladin, i dont know what i am more in love with, the idea of a marauder, the name marauder or or a double damage laser bonus that leaves high slots open for other gadgets.

competitive. thats all i am asking for. we train xxx months for this ship, make it competitive for the SP we sink into it.
ok, so pirates are better...this thread isnt about pirate ships. never were they claimed to be or "should be" better than a pirate so yawn at the thought.
but, they should be better than a tier 1 counter part.

they will receive some loving or i will rewire my bombers neocomm to drop bombs in jita and permagank innocent concord officers just doing their job.
Kuriar
Furious Fractal Frenzy Inc
Fractal Freeport Force
#156 - 2013-04-11 20:12:56 UTC
With everything i have read shames me to say the maurader class is just not up to par and there is really now way to buff the ship to make it on par with its pirate counter part without overlapping bonus or the fear it will become OP. The ideas posted here are great but sadly it may cause problems elsewhere.

My solution for the muarader class is a unique one indeed and its one i feel may be the best course of action CCP could take.

Decomission the Maurader class altogether and remake it as a Modular battleship that can be fitted with sub-systems. Yup you are reading it correctly - A MODULAR BATTLESHIP ! Seeing as how the current training to be able to fly one is lengthy to the point where this ship is in reality a SPECIALIZATION. We deserve this due in part the effort to train up said skills and 2nd it would add some unique flavor where a Battleship hull can be configured for PvE, PvP, Incursion .. etc

Since we already have Tech 3 Cruisers why not a Modular Battleship in this case perhaps a Tech 4 Battleship ?
Before anyone gets any funky ideas that this will become or can become an OP Ship or unbreakable !
Please remember CCP can at any given moment nerf or buff a Sub-System :)

Besides should this idea become a reality id love to see some new art work for a new Battleship hull.
Also i like to see this be part of the hull -

25% reduction to Weapon Signatue radius turret
25% reduction to Explosion Radius missles

to also include the 5% to heat absordsion when overheating modules

Sub-systems skills - please insert ideas here - clueless at the moment
Enya Sparhawk
Black Tea and Talons
#157 - 2013-04-11 23:57:38 UTC
I dunno, a modular BS... sounds like headaches to me...



I read this on another posting dealing with the Golem, but I thought it was a decent idea to put on a ship...

A role bonus of a faster reload time for weapon systems (say like 50%; not sure how you could translate this to laser systems though). It doesn't fix the inherent problems but I think it would be a nice direction...

"Kuriar" wrote:
25% reduction to Weapon Signatue radius turret
25% reduction to Explosion Radius missles


This sounds pretty cool, give the heavy guns the characteristics of a med gun... well balanced of course...

Fíorghrá: Grá na fírinne

Maireann croí éadrom i bhfad.

Bíonn súil le muir ach ní bhíonn súil le tír.

Is maith an scéalaí an aimsir.

When the lost ships of Greece finally return home...
Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
#158 - 2013-04-12 13:44:32 UTC
i cannot stand modular ships what so ever.
they are an "i win" button like the drake of old.

i thought about decommissioning the marauder, but no damnit!
its a bad ass ship with bad ass potential.

it wouldnt take much to get it going. bring it up to the t2 standards and add an exploration side.

change the paladin hull to the abaddon and give it torps. the marauder is the bs hac..=)
Enya Sparhawk
Black Tea and Talons
#159 - 2013-04-12 21:53:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Enya Sparhawk
Mole Guy wrote:
i thought about decommissioning the marauder, but no damnit!
its a bad ass ship with bad ass potential.

it wouldnt take much to get it going. bring it up to the t2 standards and add an exploration side.


I tend agree, redine its role in the everchanging game...

This ship has so much potential...


I've got a few thoughts I just wanted to add here about some possible role defining bonuses:

- immunity to cargo/ship scans
- immunity to non-targeted interdiction
- 25% bonus to tractor beam and data/composition scanner cycles
- The innate ability to cargo/ship scan without being detected
- innate passive targeting
- anchoring time bonus/reduction (I mention this one because of suggestion #2 and a larger cargo hold)
- quicker reload time (previously mentioned)
- 100% increase to smartbomb range
- ability to fit expanded probe launcher
- ability to fit a bomb launcher (this one is more for a laugh; obviously replacing one of the turrets/launchers with it)

That's all I can think of for now...

I mean in the grand scheme of things, we have to remember this isn't a full on attack ship but an all in one vessel... I know people like to relate this ship to a HAC, but it isn't... they are two different roles...

A support battleship that fits the role of a mission runner (due to 4 guns effectively being 8) while being weaker at PvP...

Fíorghrá: Grá na fírinne

Maireann croí éadrom i bhfad.

Bíonn súil le muir ach ní bhíonn súil le tír.

Is maith an scéalaí an aimsir.

When the lost ships of Greece finally return home...
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#160 - 2013-04-16 16:13:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Mina Sebiestar
Name: Kronos
Hull: Megathron Class
Role: Marauder

Geared toward versatility and prolonged deployment in hostile environments focused on out hunting rather than out running , Marauders represent the cutting edge in today's warship technology. While especially effective at incursion in enemy space and mapping enemy movement, they possess comparatively weak sensor strength and may find themselves at increased risk of sensor jamming. Nevertheless, these thick-skinned, hard-hitting monsters are the perfect tools for roaming galaxy's no matter in what part of space pilot found him self to be.

Developer: Duvolle Labs

Duvolle Labs manufactures sturdy ships with a good mix of offensive and defensive capabilities. Since the company is one of New Eden's foremost manufacturers of particle blasters, its ships tend to favor turrets and thus have somewhat higher power output than normal.

Gallente Battleship Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to large hybrid weapon damage and 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level

Marauder Skill Bonus:7.5%(debatable) increase to scan strength of probes per lvl and 7.5% bonus to large hybrid weapon tracking per level

Role Bonus: 100% bonus to large hybrid weapon damage, 100%(debatable) bonus to combat probe flight time and scan speed

Fitting or fitting (option 2)

7 lows (7)
4 med (5)
6 high (5)
4 turret slots
2 rig slots

drone bay 125/130
hit points and or resist profile buffed to compensate removal of local boost bonus,sensor strength buffed to some degree i do think they should retain some weakness to jams.

Increased agility to match pirate counterpart,speed unchanged, ship warp speed 6 to 13 au(debatable)

In this way ppl that using ship in missions still have their carebearmobile they lost boost bonus but gain resist one making tanking this monsters still easy job.but ship can brake from that pve tomb it is now.

While local monster tank can have it perks in pvp it is often confined to docking games or rare few solo actions and considering skill amount that you need to fly this ship it should be more usable anyway in various situations.

And there is nothing stopping you to fit booster or ASB it is just not ship focus anymore.

And in this form i do think wh ppl can use ship as early warning system as well as being potent pvp asset as well as pve shooter too when farming sleepers.

This is my view of marauder.

Anyway just some thoughts on the topic.throw some opinions plz.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard