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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Caldari

First post First post
Author
Grombutz
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#261 - 2013-04-10 15:18:46 UTC
So, today is the day the PvE-Raven died. Welcome the new PvE-missile boat, the typhoon :D

5 mids on the typhoon + 7 lows and 6 launchers are going to kill the raven, period.
Velarra
#262 - 2013-04-10 15:23:46 UTC
Based on the current proposed nerfs to Cal BS, are you really intending to boost their high/mid/low module systems in return to an equal degree? Or was the Caldari tear pitcher about drained and you figured, - hey, lets get it refilled for another round!? ^_^

I mean, if one's a Machariel pilot, nerfs on this scale would be understood as incoming. Otherwise, Cal BS? Really? Mmkay. Seems the time to adapt is on the horizon.
Danny John-Peter
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#263 - 2013-04-10 15:38:33 UTC
Velarra wrote:
Based on the current proposed nerfs to Cal BS, are you really intending to boost their high/mid/low module systems in return to an equal degree? Or was the Caldari tear pitcher about drained and you figured, - hey, lets get it refilled for another round!? ^_^

I mean, if one's a Machariel pilot, nerfs on this scale would be understood as incoming. Otherwise, Cal BS? Really? Mmkay. Seems the time to adapt is on the horizon.


The Raven got better and the Rokh stays largely the same (Ie Still good).

I havent looked at the Scorp but from what I read it got better too.

Basically, what?
Van Mathias
Dead Space Continuum
#264 - 2013-04-10 15:39:07 UTC
Honestly, if they want to nerf the Rokh tank, they should slice off some shield HP, not the resist bonus.
Unseen Spectre
Shadow Eye Ops
#265 - 2013-04-10 15:43:02 UTC
@CCP Rise
A lot have been written about the Raven in this thread, but so far this has not had a big impact on the changes to the stats other than a very minor increase in the base shield hp compared to the original stats.
You probably have your reasons for not making additional changes to the ship, but could you please share your considerations for not e.g. changing the missile speed bonus to a damage/damage application bonus, making the ship faster/more maneuverable, improving the scan resolution to improve locking time etc.
So far, I have not I have not seen much feedback to the suggested changes, so it would be nice to know your considerations for making the ship the way it is.
Feedback would be appreciated. Thank you.
Danny John-Peter
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#266 - 2013-04-10 15:50:52 UTC
Van Mathias wrote:
Honestly, if they want to nerf the Rokh tank, they should slice off some shield HP, not the resist bonus.


I dont necessarily agree with this, in larger fights theres usually enough Logistics to rep the damage on the field (Unless its overwhelming, in which case it makes little difference whether a Single % of Resist bonus is present), its usually more alpha that kills the target rather than inability to tank.
Tilo Rhywald
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#267 - 2013-04-10 15:54:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Tilo Rhywald
It seems the Hyperion will recieve a significant buff after all - including an enlarged drone bay... All the more reason to reconsider the redundant and impertinent Rokh nerf: Give it those additional 25m^3 of drone space and perhaps some other form of enhancement like an increase in scan resolution.

I find it more than noteworthy that player opinion did have some first effects, and I really want to thank you for this, CCP Rise. Please listen to us in this case, too. I think it's noteworthy that espcecially people like XDMR, Van Mathias and myself who fly Rokhs solo on a regular basis are among the most outspoken objectors to the resist nerf. If this ship was somehow too strong in logi fleets, there must be ways to address that without degrading the ships being repped. One of the best analogies for this was the one posted by BiggestT: Nerfing the Rokh's resist bonus to achieve that is like blaming the bread for being burnt by the toaster. Heh.. :)

Cheers
Tilo R.
Van Mathias
Dead Space Continuum
#268 - 2013-04-10 16:05:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Van Mathias
+1 Tilo! I have been arguing that point all along, add me to the list of dedicated Rokh pilots you have there.

I would also suggest again making remote reps give a resist penalty to the target for the duration of the rep, and a few seconds afterwards. That would do far more to balance out the broken effects of high resists + logi across all ships than a nerf to two select hulls.

Also, where is the resist discussion thread you promised CCP Rise?
Sparkus Volundar
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#269 - 2013-04-10 16:56:53 UTC
Dear CCP Rise,

I write to suggest putting a 7th mid on the Raven whilst leaving the Maelstrom essentially unchanged will be out of balance.

At Minmatar BS 5, The Meal will have a 37.5% Shield Boost amount bonus. If the Raven uses a Shield Boost Amp II in its 7th Mid, it will get a 36% Shield Boost amount bonus, which is almost identical (96% of the Meal bonus). With PVP fits, it's very unlikely that stacking penalties will apply and in PVE, Faction etc. versions of Amps come into play more easily.

In summary, I would suggest that proposing to give the Raven a 7th Mid slot and a smaller Sig Radius than the Maelstrom will be too much of a buff (or that the Maelstrom needs some additional boost to offset what seems to be the loss in value of it's tanking bonus).

(Cross-posted to Mini thread also)

Regards,
Sparks

.

Sal Landry
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#270 - 2013-04-10 16:57:30 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
The Raven got better and the Rokh stays largely the same (Ie Still good).

I havent looked at the Scorp but from what I read it got better too.

Basically, what?


The Raven improved slightly from its current position, but it's irrelevant because there's nothing the new Raven will be able to do that the Typhoon can't do better.

The scorpion is also improved, but it remains to be seen if it's enough when you account for the recent large nerfs to ECM.

The Rokh (along with the Abaddon) have been nerfed slightly while the primary nullsec fleet BS (Maelstrom) has been buffed for some unknown reason.

Overall there doesn't look like there's a single Caldari battleship that's going to come out of the balncing in a good position compared to any of the other options.
CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#271 - 2013-04-10 17:10:21 UTC
Heyo Caldari guys

Little update for you since I think I've posted in the other threads a bit more =)

I hate to do the soonTM thing, but Fozzie should be making a post soon (I'm not sure if that means today or tomorrow or what) about the Rokh/Abaddon resistance bonus tweak, so just watch for that.

I see a lot of discussion about large missiles overall. I can't give you guys a whole bunch of details right now, because honestly we don't have them quite pinned down yet, but I'll tell you two things now which will hopefully be encouraging: cruise missiles will get a buff (most likely related to their damage), and at least some of the work for battleship missiles will make it into Odyssey.

I know thats not as specific as you would want, but I hope its enough to hold you over until we pin down a few more things.

We're glad to hear you like the scorp change!

@ccp_rise

Tilo Rhywald
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#272 - 2013-04-10 17:28:49 UTC
Van Mathias wrote:
..., add me to the list of dedicated Rokh pilots you have there.


Done. ;)

CCP Rise wrote:
I hate to do the soonTM thing, but Fozzie should be making a post soon (I'm not sure if that means today or tomorrow or what) about the Rokh/Abaddon resistance bonus tweak, so just watch for that.


I doubt that this future thread might somehow produce arguments that could negate our points - at all.

One really big argument against the Rokh nerf that hasn't been brought up (to my knowledge) is the following: How many Rokhs were used in the last 3 Alliance Tournaments (the ones I watched for the most part)? I remember a single match of note where Hydra Reloaded used an all Caldari blaster gang including a Rokh in ATVIII. But otherwise... Somebody sure isn't as lazy as me to search for the AT ship stats. ;)

Wouldn't the tournaments be a much better indicator of a ship's performance in total than huge blob fleet fights?

Cheers
Tilo R.
Hayman Wakefield
Trans-Stellar Salvage Shipping and Securities
#273 - 2013-04-10 17:40:46 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

I see a lot of discussion about large missiles overall. I can't give you guys a whole bunch of details right now, because honestly we don't have them quite pinned down yet, but I'll tell you two things now which will hopefully be encouraging: cruise missiles will get a buff (most likely related to their damage), and at least some of the work for battleship missiles will make it into Odyssey.


I know there won't be any response to this but how can you balance the Raven whilst BS class missile systems are in their current state? I feel most of us were hoping you had a pretty good idea of what was needed to be done and that's why the ship looks poor currently, this sadly seems not to be the case.

Like any bittervet I'm glad I can just pick up the current FOTM with equal efficiency... So Gal and Min again for 2013/14
Deacon Abox
Black Eagle5
Villore Accords
#274 - 2013-04-10 17:50:24 UTC
Tilo Rhywald wrote:
One really big argument against the Rokh nerf that hasn't been brought up (to my knowledge) is the following: How many Rokhs were used in the last 3 Alliance Tournaments (the ones I watched for the most part)? I remember a single match of note where Hydra Reloaded used an all Caldari blaster gang including a Rokh in ATVIII. But otherwise... Somebody sure isn't as lazy as me to search for the AT ship stats. ;)

Wouldn't the tournaments be a much better indicator of a ship's performance in total than huge blob fleet fights?

Cheers
Tilo R.

More comedy gold itt. Lol

Do you seriously think that alliance tournament usage is indicative of in-game balance? Do you not understand point allocation per team and point cost in that artificial combat context? Does all eve combat involve a defined "arena" and limits on numbers or types of ships? Tell me how a ship that is currently tops on eve-kill is going to die off with this 1% nerf. Did you only read this thread and failed to notice that the Abaddon is similarly adjusted? Or, do you think that somehow the Rokh alone should be exempted from an overall adjustment of resist bonuses to 4% per level?

The whole point with the resist bonus adjustment is that now a level 5 ship skill will provide a 20% instead of 25% omni-resist buff, which will still be about the best bonus any ship can get. I don't think, and more importantly the devs don't think this will kill off Rokh usage and instead will bring more balance. And in that they will be correct.

It seems to me the Scorpion is going to fit quite well into armor BS gangs now with an extra low. Meanwhile show me equivalently useful options Amarr and Gallente will have for shield BS fleets. Lastly, cruises are slated for a buff. You have it right there from the horses mouth. So, stop whining.Straight

CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.

SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#275 - 2013-04-10 17:51:39 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

I see a lot of discussion about large missiles overall. I can't give you guys a whole bunch of details right now, because honestly we don't have them quite pinned down yet, but I'll tell you two things now which will hopefully be encouraging: cruise missiles will get a buff (most likely related to their damage), and at least some of the work for battleship missiles will make it into Odyssey.


Good to see you're reading feedback.

Could you post a thread about battleship missiles somewhere else so we can debate and help you fix them ?
Sal Landry
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#276 - 2013-04-10 17:58:59 UTC
Deacon Abox wrote:
So, stop whining.Straight

No.
Van Mathias
Dead Space Continuum
#277 - 2013-04-10 18:08:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Van Mathias
Deacon, a better nerf for large fleets of Rokhs and Abaddons is increasing their base material cost. It makes sense, because they are supposed to be tougher ships anyway. This nerf is aimed a large fleets, and you are right, a nerf like this wont break the ship in that context, but like others have said, that's not the only context that it is used. By doing this, they are going to decrease the amount of situations where a Rokh will be useful in small gang/solo combat. Indeed, the change could kill off its solo combat potential altogether.

I don't participate in huge BS fleet fights, and I'm not really interested in game play in the largest blobs. So this nerf is hitting me, even though I'm not the intended target.
Aglais
Ice-Storm
Trigger Happy.
#278 - 2013-04-10 18:14:09 UTC
Sal Landry wrote:


The Raven improved slightly from its current position, but it's irrelevant because there's nothing the new Raven will be able to do that the Typhoon can't do better.


Um... The new Raven can... Move?

The Typhoon's alleged mobility advantage literally dissolves when you try to give it any EHP at all, given it's slot layout favoring armor tanking far more than shields. The Raven's new mobility (Since nothing in this context has changed on the raven- 1205m/s with 14.5s align time with a MWD on) seems to be quite high, which means it will at least be able to lurch briefly towards/away from enemy battleships to actually attempt to dictate range. Which the Typhoon will struggle to do when laden with plates and trimarks. Not to mention the fact that the Typhoon has like... No range. At all.
Sinigr Shadowsong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#279 - 2013-04-10 18:19:52 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Heyo Caldari guys
I see a lot of discussion about large missiles overall. I can't give you guys a whole bunch of details right now, because honestly we don't have them quite pinned down yet, but I'll tell you two things now which will hopefully be encouraging: cruise missiles will get a buff (most likely related to their damage), and at least some of the work for battleship missiles will make it into Odyssey.


Please answer these questions:

1. Do you think that +10% missile velocity bonus is useful for cruise missiles?
2. Do you think that +10% missile velocity bonus is enough to make Raven pilots use torps for PvE (since Raven is PvE-only).
3. Do you think that +10% missile velocity bonus may compete with explosion velocity bonus for cruise and torpedoes?

And, most important: do you think that Raven will be used for PvP often enough to be on par with other BS?
Ranamar
Nobody in Local
Of Sound Mind
#280 - 2013-04-10 18:42:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranamar
Sinigr Shadowsong wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Heyo Caldari guys
I see a lot of discussion about large missiles overall. I can't give you guys a whole bunch of details right now, because honestly we don't have them quite pinned down yet, but I'll tell you two things now which will hopefully be encouraging: cruise missiles will get a buff (most likely related to their damage), and at least some of the work for battleship missiles will make it into Odyssey.


Please answer these questions:

1. Do you think that +10% missile velocity bonus is useful for cruise missiles?
2. Do you think that +10% missile velocity bonus is enough to make Raven pilots use torps for PvE (since Raven is PvE-only).
3. Do you think that +10% missile velocity bonus may compete with explosion velocity bonus for cruise and torpedoes?

And, most important: do you think that Raven will be used for PvP often enough to be on par with other BS?


I think the goal here is to make it so that *maybe* the Raven is not pve-only.

From a PvE standpoint, though, my personal answers would be:
1) Not for PvE
2) We already know from the Golem that torps could use a bit more range to be fully effective.
3) If the velocity bonus got standard torps to 50-60km with max skills and no rigs, I'd feel differently from now, because mission battleships often like to hang out at 50km.

Regarding PvP: The new Raven can keep up with a Drake for a minute or two if they both run a MWD. I think there is potential here, and I await the missile changes with bated breath, but I still fear a nano-typhoon would be superior, especially if you have a friend for tackle. I think there's an argument to be made that missile velocity will make it harder for missiles to be avoided by running away from them, but I'm still learning about the relationship between theoretical and actual missile range when ships are running away or orbiting, so I don't have a useful gut feeling.