EVE General Discussion

you're not actually saying anything; that's the entire problem.

i've read them, there isn't anything for the last 2 pages or so.

how long do you think we can keep this up for before some one else posts, or it gets locked, or something? i'd put isk on at least another page.

Can i have my 1 ISK?

It isn't my place, but you two seem to be somewhat 'warmed up'. Perhaps let it go for a while?

I have Guinness !

"bare" mining skills for a hulk "fit for max yield" are hardly "bare mining skills".

"bare mining skills" in a venture are more what you're arguing about.

Yes, you can use a no skill (L1 Ore Frig, L1 Mining) character to mine. You're getting just under 103m3 per laser (102.9), assuming you're running with Cu Vapor Miners (base 49 m3/cycle). with 2 lasers, that's about 206 m3/minute. Arkonor is 16 m3/unit, so you're getting 6 units per laser (well, 6.4 or so, but EVE rounds down).

You need 200 units (3,600 m3) to refine Ark. This will take you approximately 15 minutes (pulling in 12/minute), and net you about 850k (~129k for the zyd, ~717k for the mega, and 1620 for the trit using Eve-central Jita median buy price). ASSUMING PERFECT REFINING

In that same 30 minutes, mining veldspar, you get 61740 units of veld (205.8 m3/min = 2058 units/min * 30 min), netting you about 1m ISK. ASSUMING PERFECT REFINING.

Now, your no-skill miner isn't going to have perfect refining. IIRC, the base yield for a no-skill toon (after taxes) is a little over 80% (since you need refining 1 to refine).

Net yield is (station base) + ((refining constant) * (refining factor) * (efficiency factor) * (spec factor)) where:

- station base is the base yield of the station (50% in hisec usually)
- refining constant is 37.5%
- refining factor is 1+(0.02*Refining Skill Level)
- efficiency factor is 1+(0.04*Refinery Efficiency Skill Level)
- spec factor is 1+(0.05*Ore Processing Skill Level)

So, our rookie miner has a yield of 50 + (37.5*1.02*1*1) = 88.25, less station taxes ... 88.25*.95 = 83.83%
Ark = 700k
Veld = 830k

Now, we're assuming that there aren't any belt rats. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that a no-skill venture can't tank nullsec belt rats in the same vein as a no-skill frig can't tank a L4 mission.

And now to get back on track :) .

The Question is: should null industry be better than high sec industry.

The real answer is - NO, it shouldn't by default be better, but players in null sec should (IF they put in the time and effort, risk loss and work to defend it) be able to build the "99% self sufficient" industrial empires CCP has said they them to be able to.

A player should be able to just live and play in null sec if thats what they choose to do. As it s now, that's nearly impossible, somehow, in some way either that player has to go back to "empire" (or maintain an empire presence via alts) for stuff OR pay someone else to bring them stuff from empire. After 10 years of spenidng TRILLIONS of isk and fighting (killing millions of ships), null sec has 3% of high sec's industrial capacity.

Is a player wants to live in null sec and be an industrialist/builder/whatever, they syhould be able to do that without having to be dependent on empire, in the EXACt same way that a player who doesn't want to leave high sec should not be forced to. High sec partisans wo't back any change though, because one the one hand they are condemning the kinds of people who go to null sec while on the other hand they are happily selling them the fruits of their high sec carebearing.....

Please CCP, free us from Core Worlds/High Sec Tyranny!. Cuba Null Sec Libre!

Needing to ship stuff to empire to fund alliances is still dependence, and ccp's stated goal for null was virtual independence ("99% self sufficent").

The relationship between null and high (and all other parts of EVE) should be free and fair trade, not the current one way slavery to high sec.

They are worth more based on difficulty and the content, not what you had to train.

I've done plenty of L4's in a frigate.

in null sec, mining is done in grav sites. grav sites are worth less isk/m3 than scordite. thank spod and gneiss for that, dragging down the average isk/m3 of a grav site.
unfortunately due to the nature of grav sites, you can't just cherry pick the ark and ignore the rest.

nothing stops you putting those exhumers in high sec and obtaining the same quantity, at a higher isk/quantity value.

the only thing null has going for it is the rorq bonuses, which as i pointed out are the hinge of the debate as to which is worth more isk, high sec or null sec. i'm not saying high sec is always more profitable, however it is generally when all considerations are taken in to account i feel it is. oh and scordite isk/m3 > grav site isk/m3 is just fact, i've run the maths. although i haven't updated the sheet in a few days, but i doubt it has changed all that much. although the gap is closing.

then i will repeat the "move belts" suggestion. the ore is there if you look for it, even with the proliferation of high sec miners.
find that remaining 30% of belts, or pick another activity.

# of belts in null sec is irrelevant, once you have the first industry upgrade installed in a sov system.

you might not think so, but that's exactly how it works. a belt's value is determined by how much isk the market will give you for it's contents.

as for transport costs there will always be costs; yes some minerals will be kept for local production. however by nature 0.0 must over produce megacyte/zyd/morphite because high sec doesn't have access to those minerals so the excess has to be exported. the only way to reduce these costs to 0 is to basically say "all production is done in null" and that's silly.

Yes lets spend hundreds of billions a month on POS that can be attacked to get what high sec has for almost free and no risk!

True. The trouble is getting it right.

In my limited experiences with w-space, it seems just about right.
They don't have ice, so import that from k-space. They don't have "much" manufacturing capacity, so export mostly finished parts to k-space for final assembly (or the raw materials I suppose, whichever is easier profit-wise).

Nullsec is more touchy -- make it too good, and there's no need to export to hisec ... so it should be done in a few passes; rather than one big "we fixed it!" patch. No exports to hisec/empire, and then empire T2 will skyrocket.

edit -- skyrocketing T2 may not be a bad thing ... but it raises the barrier that much farther.

On top of that, once nullsec stops putting upward pressure on T1 ships, they start declining in price. At some point, it again becomes favorable to buy in hisec and ship everything back to null, and we end up right where we are.