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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Gallente

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Arazel Chainfire
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#901 - 2013-04-09 22:16:46 UTC
Now then, on to the hyperion. Lets go ahead and take a look at active armor tanking on the battleship level. Right now, we can take the current fit (2% pg implant needed at max skills for it to fit).
[Hyperion, Triple Rep]
Large Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste
Large Armor Repairer II
Large Armor Repairer II
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 800
Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 800
Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
Warp Scrambler II
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I

Electron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Void L

Large Nanobot Accelerator I
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I


Hammerhead II x5

This is currently the BEST that you can manage with active armor tanking. It gets a 1637dps tank while there is nanite repair paste loaded, 888 while the ancillary armor rep is reloading, or 749 with just the ancillary rep running. With the hammerheads running, it does 821dps, 921 if it overheats its guns. And it can manage all of this for as long as its cap boosters last. Which, if it isn't carrying spare ammo, is about 3 and a half minutes. Now, lets compare this to another hyperion, buffer tanked.

[Hyperion, Blaster fleet]
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Warp Scrambler II
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I

Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L

Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I


Hammerhead II x5

So this one has 140k EHP, does 1090dps with drones, 1229 overheated. Now, if these two ships got into a fight, the triple rep one would win because it can tank the plated one. The problem is... fights in eve are never alone. If we were to bump it up to as much as 2 of each of these, if the two plated hyperions were to overheat for a little bit, they could tear through one of the triple rep, and then after it went down shift to the second hyperion and kill it too before the triple rep ones managed to kill one of the plated ones. Admittedly, one side or the other might use ECM drones, or something else, so it isn't quite as straight up as that, but just looking at dps and tank we can see the problem. Add to this that you rarely see 4 hyperions duking it out - you are more likely to see smaller ships supporting, or a battleship carrying neuts to ruin the active tank, or ECM drones/falcons from one side or the other, etc.

The big problem is this is the difference between 1 ship and 2 ships. The fact that merely going from 1 attacker to 2 would cause this ship to loose is why active tanking is BAD on the battleship level. Eve is not a solo game. Rarely do people go out runnign around solo, especially in battleships - and the tend to die when they do.

cont...
Arazel Chainfire
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#902 - 2013-04-09 22:17:13 UTC
Now lets look at active shield tanking to see why it actually works. Take a look at the cyclone. Running a single ASB, the cyclone can get the exact same tank as the maelstrom can with a single ASB. But the cyclone also has the agility to get away from bigger ships that can munch on it. So a battlecruiser is supporting a battleships tank, with a battlecruisers agility. As we move to cruisers and smaller ships, active tanking becomes more and more popular, especially with shield tanking. Why? It preserves mobility, and you have a better chance to gtfo when your opponents friends show up. Additionally with shield tanking, you can essentially tank as well as the next size ship up - especially compared to armor tanking.

Now, if we looked at active shield tanking on battleships, a maelstrom could fit 2 ASB's to it, 2 invulns, and a damage control, and it now has just as much tank as this hyperion. How many slots used? 5. How many slots does this hyperion need to
use to achieve these results? 8 + 3 rigs. I don't know about you... but that seems like more than a little silly that it takes 3 more hardpoints AND the rigs, just to manage the same thing.

So where am I going with this blob of text? If you want active tank, you need a mobile ship that can disengage. That means that if you want to active tank a gallente ship, you should active tank the ATTACK battleship, not a combat one. Additionally, any ATTACK battleship that relies on active tanking is basically going to be relegating itself to the role of "hit and run" or "picking on the little guys". This active hyperion could take on 2-3 battlecruisers without too much of an issue, if it could hold them on the field. That means that if you want an active armor tanked gallente battleship, its natural prey should be battlecruisers, and maybe even cruisers.

Additionally, any active tanking battleship should be able to manage to active tank without needing to devote every single slot to it. Specifically, an AAR should require 3 rigs and still be beaten out by an XLASB, especially not if you are limiting it to just 1 per ship. Yes, I am well aware that there has to be some differences between shield and armor tanking. However at the moment the difference is that active shield tanking is viable and active armor tanking isn't. That isn't what we should be doing.

-Arazel
Kor'el Izia
#903 - 2013-04-09 22:17:50 UTC
Spreadsheet-o-zilla didnt point out that the recieved a buff to cap regen: Dominix cap/s +0.91
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#904 - 2013-04-09 22:23:50 UTC
Arazel Chainfire wrote:

[Hyperion, Blaster fleet]


Heh, you said "blaster" and "fleet" in the same sentence unironically.
Catlos JeminJees
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#905 - 2013-04-09 22:25:42 UTC
Akirei Scytale wrote:
Arazel Chainfire wrote:

[Hyperion, Blaster fleet]


Heh, you said "blaster" and "fleet" in the same sentence unironically.



Alot of alliances use Blaster rokhs
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#906 - 2013-04-09 22:29:44 UTC
Akirei Scytale wrote:
Heh, you said "blaster" and "fleet" in the same sentence unironically.

The fact that this statement is a valid counterargument is the main reason CCP needs to take another look at blasters and Gallente ships in general.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#907 - 2013-04-09 22:30:35 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Akirei Scytale wrote:
Heh, you said "blaster" and "fleet" in the same sentence unironically.

The fact that this statement is a valid counterargument is the main reason CCP needs to take another look at blasters and Gallente ships in general.


I go into a lot more depth on this problem in my post on page 25.
Rukhsana Uxor
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#908 - 2013-04-09 22:37:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Rukhsana Uxor
Catlos JeminJees wrote:

Alot of alliances use Blaster rokhs

And how many use gallent blaster fleets? :)
In fact, rokh shield tank and optimal bonus (~50-60km 400 dps with nulls and double this at 30km) thats pretty good. And if i want tp use "canonicity" gallent fit (armor+blasters) I will never reach this range with same amount of TC or TE. Dont forget that rokh have more EHP than gallents BS (any of them :) )
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#909 - 2013-04-09 22:37:36 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
Because a one mid-slot and drone tracking advantage over the 'Geddon completely makes up for everything else the 'Geddon will be equal and/or better at.

Oh yeah ! Let's compare these everything :
- 200 more GJ of base capacitor ;
- one more high slot ;
- 12km more *range* for cap war modules ;
- more PWG (lasers eat this).


on the other hand :
- less total hp (a little more armor, less hull, less shield ; that much for the versatility) ;
- less mobility ;
- worse sensors ;
- less CPU (drone modules eat this).

The *only* thing the Armageddon will be better at than the Dominix is cap warfare. For anything at long range, the Dominix will be better (better sensors, better CPU), and basicaly anything involving drones (drones tracking/optimale range, mid slot, CPU). The Dominix will also be a LOT more versatile wilth this fifth mid slot.

Armageddon PG maybe a bit too big, or Dominix PG too low, but other than that, they are quite fine.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#910 - 2013-04-09 22:42:32 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

The *only* thing the Armageddon will be better at than the Dominix is cap warfare.

5,500 more power grid means better tank, bigger guns (of whatever type you want to install, there is no gun bonus on these hulls). More high slots. Armageddon will pwn the Domi. It's not even close.
fukier
Gallente Federation
#911 - 2013-04-09 22:51:37 UTC
smoking gun81 wrote:
fukier wrote:

still saying the bonus for the domi should be this:

Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+10% Drone Damage , Drone hitpoints , Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed
+5% to drone activation range and sentry drone damage


Again NO NO NO

double drone damage bonus one of them focusing on sentry drones talk about Pigeon holing a ship to use a single drone type.


dont think you get how good the domi would be if that were its bonuses...
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
Arazel Chainfire
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#912 - 2013-04-09 22:57:36 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:
Because a one mid-slot and drone tracking advantage over the 'Geddon completely makes up for everything else the 'Geddon will be equal and/or better at.

Oh yeah ! Let's compare these everything :
- 200 more GJ of base capacitor ;
- one more high slot ;
- 12km more *range* for cap war modules ;
- more PWG (lasers eat this).


on the other hand :
- less total hp (a little more armor, less hull, less shield ; that much for the versatility) ;
- less mobility ;
- worse sensors ;
- less CPU (drone modules eat this).

The *only* thing the Armageddon will be better at than the Dominix is cap warfare. For anything at long range, the Dominix will be better (better sensors, better CPU), and basicaly anything involving drones (drones tracking/optimale range, mid slot, CPU). The Dominix will also be a LOT more versatile wilth this fifth mid slot.

Armageddon PG maybe a bit too big, or Dominix PG too low, but other than that, they are quite fine.


The geddon gets 50 less CPU than the domi after the changes, while having 5500 more powergrid. Here is a fit that will be viable for the geddon after the changes (may require either an ACR rig or a PG implant)
[Armageddon, Neuts]
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Reactive Armor Hardener
Drone Damage Amplifier I

Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II

Heavy Energy Neutralizer II
Heavy Energy Neutralizer II
Heavy Energy Neutralizer II
Heavy Energy Neutralizer II
Heavy Energy Neutralizer II
Heavy Energy Neutralizer II
Heavy Energy Neutralizer II

Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I

5x Guarde II or 5x Ogre II

After the changes, this fit will have more EHP, more neuting power, more drone damage, and only slightly less tracking than a comparable domi. Now, running all those neuts may be a bit of a problem but if you need that much neuting power then you are probably going to have something feeding this thing cap. But, you also have the option to run fewer neuts, guns, missiles, or any number of other fits.

Basically, if you are wanting to engage at close(ish) range, there is nothing that the domi can do now that the geddon can't do better.

-Arazel
Havegun Willtravel
Mobile Alcohol Processing Units
#913 - 2013-04-09 22:58:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Havegun Willtravel
Cold shower time.

The Domi is never gonna be a Cat or Boot anything.

Thanatos: 5/5/6 100k Base Targeting Range +50% Capital Shield & Armor Rep Range

Archon: 5/4/7 92.5 Base Targeting Range +50% Capital Cap Trans & Armor Rep Range
+5 Armor Resists

Either/or: 2 Cap Trans, 2 Capital Armor Reps, Large Neut or Smart bomb.


Replicate that using large mods on a Domi and what do you get ? Zero DPS.

And, you're stuck with @ 60 k drone control range. And the base 70 k targeting range the Domi gets.

Now try building one of these supposedly Uber Cat/Boot fits. You need to loose 2 highs for drone link augmentor's right off the bat. Then at least 1 if not 2 sensor boosters to even get 100-110 targeting range.

With your 4 remaining highs you could waste them on dual cap trans and remote rep and basically get mediocre reps and overall crappy dps.

So Cat/Boot remote rep fits are pointless. Every DDA you add to a Domi Trashes Your Tank !
You're infinitely slower than the Ishtar or Gila. Ishtar has t2 resists, Gila gets a resist bonus. Domi is not alot cheaper than an Ishtar atm. About the only reason to choose it atm is that it's a bit cheaper , And, it can fit large neuts and guns. However, it will do that less than half as well vs the geddon so why bother ?

Under 40 k, Geddon hits you with drones, neuts and torps. 40-80k it can run a single drone augmentor and use cruise. Domi can ....... ? Not an eft wizard but unless you can get a full rack of 1400's on it, it's useless.

When it was the Only BS drone boat it was versatile and dynamic. Now that it's the Galente Sniper Battle Ship it just sucks. And it doesn't need a +10% bonus to range to do it.


Marlona could speak more knowledgeably, but IIRC NC used sentry Ishtars vs Goon's once. Not twice, just once. That should say Alot about how sentry sniping is gonna work as a doctrine or tactic.


** Apologies to Arazel. You posted pretty much the same if not better while i was writing.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#914 - 2013-04-09 23:03:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
The Dominix - as this ship will now be a pure drone boat, i feel that the sentry drone rig should be modified to increase the damage of all drones. In addition, hard-wiring implants that increase various aspects of drone performance should be added.

Without these additions, the dominix doesn't provide enough options for the player to make theirs unique and i feel it would be "unfair" to make the dominix the only combat ship that can't be customised in this way.

Does anyone else agree?

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#915 - 2013-04-09 23:06:26 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

Oh yeah ! Let's compare these everything :
- 200 more GJ of base capacitor ;
- one more high slot ;
- 12km more *range* for cap war modules ;
- more PWG (lasers eat this).

on the other hand :
- less total hp (a little more armor, less hull, less shield ; that much for the versatility) ;
- less mobility ;
- worse sensors ;
- less CPU (drone modules eat this).

Going down the list...

- The seemingly "small" advantage of the Geddon's capacitor is increased by a fair margin when skills and mods are applied. Remember that capacitor amount also affects capacitor recharge to a certain degree.

- I equate the Domi's extra mid-slot advantage to the Armageddon's extra high-slot... it's useful for fitting more weapons, neuts, and/or utility.

- That "small" range extension for heavy neuts does make a difference when you have enemies closing in (that's 12 more kms the enemy has to close under pressure from neuts) and frigates and interceptors that normally try to stay outside of heavy neut range while applying tackle will be well within range now... mandating heavy or suicide tackle.

- Keep in mind that the new Armageddon has no limitations in what weapon it can use. Instead of using high PG-CPU-capacitor eating lasers It can use launchers, hybrids, and projectiles all equally well (my money is on autocannons).

- Little less hp? The Geddon has 500 more armor (which is really the only stat that counts)... which, like the "small" capacitor advantage pointed out above, increases drastically when skills, mods, and implants are applied.

- When using sentries you aren't moving (unless you are willing to lose your sentries). The extra mobility that the Domi has over the Geddon is lost.

- Granted, the Geddon can't target as far or as fast as the Dominix... but it does have a slightly smaller sig radius. Blink

- I don't consider CPU to be as big an issue as people are making it out to be. Just swap some mods for meta 4 equipment and/or drop an EANM for a regular Adaptive Nano Plating. Extra powergrid allows for more "breathing space" when it comes to fitting battleships.

How did you Veterans start?
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#916 - 2013-04-09 23:08:25 UTC
Truth be told the biggest problem with the Dominix, is the Armageddon.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Arazel Chainfire
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#917 - 2013-04-09 23:11:53 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Truth be told the biggest problem with the Dominix, is the Armageddon.


No, the biggest problem with the domi is the drones...

-Arazel
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#918 - 2013-04-09 23:15:02 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

The *only* thing the Armageddon will be better at than the Dominix is cap warfare.

5,500 more power grid means better tank, bigger guns (of whatever type you want to install, there is no gun bonus on these hulls). More high slots. Armageddon will pwn the Domi. It's not even close.
It's not that easy : fitting bigger weapons, the armageddon may have CPU issues, and 5 big guns are not better than 6 smaller guns (the contrary in fact) ; and the midslot allow for a cap booster to counter any supllementary neutralizer the geddon could have. To outdps the domi, the geddon need to go full weapon on its highs, and then will have CPU issues (large missiles eat CPU as well as high tier weapons).

Again, I'm not saying the perfect balance is found, but that's not the apocalypse people are making here. As I said, Armageddon probably have too much PG, or the Dominix not enough, but neglecting this fifth mid slot and say that the geddon will outperform the dominix in every single way is completely wrong, because this fifth mid slot is a fair amount of the versatility of the dominix.

And to be clear, I'd like this hybrid guns bonus, but if the objective is to differenciate the domi from the navy domi, I'm fine with this. Maybe they should have taken the other path, and make the Navy Domi the pure drone boat this domi is, following the Vexor/Vexor NI pattern ; that would haven't been the in the face change punch people are taking here, but that's not the end of the world IMO.

And again, if 16 ships need a role when only a fraction of them had one before, some ships will have to see their niche narrowed a bit to leave some place to their forgotten brothers. Remember too that BS will all cost about the same. The Dominix and Armageddon will no longer be the cheap BS they are now.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#919 - 2013-04-09 23:16:37 UTC
Arazel Chainfire wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Truth be told the biggest problem with the Dominix, is the Armageddon.


No, the biggest problem with the domi is the drones...

-Arazel

That applies to all drone ships, not just the Dominix.
In reference to this thread and the BS drone role, the Armageddon completely wipes the table with the Dominix.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
fukier
Gallente Federation
#920 - 2013-04-09 23:24:50 UTC  |  Edited by: fukier
Havegun Willtravel wrote:
Cold shower time.

The Domi is never gonna be a Cat or Boot anything.

Thanatos: 5/5/6 100k Base Targeting Range +50% Capital Shield & Armor Rep Range

Archon: 5/4/7 92.5 Base Targeting Range +50% Capital Cap Trans & Armor Rep Range
+5 Armor Resists

Either/or: 2 Cap Trans, 2 Capital Armor Reps, Large Neut or Smart bomb.


Replicate that using large mods on a Domi and what do you get ? Zero DPS.

And, you're stuck with @ 60 k drone control range. And the base 70 k targeting range the Domi gets.

Now try building one of these supposedly Uber Cat/Boot fits. You need to loose 2 highs for drone link augmentor's right off the bat. Then at least 1 if not 2 sensor boosters to even get 100-110 targeting range.

With your 4 remaining highs you could waste them on dual cap trans and remote rep and basically get mediocre reps and overall crappy dps.

So Cat/Boot remote rep fits are pointless. Every DDA you add to a Domi Trashes Your Tank !
You're infinitely slower than the Ishtar or Gila. Ishtar has t2 resists, Gila gets a resist bonus. Domi is not alot cheaper than an Ishtar atm. About the only reason to choose it atm is that it's a bit cheaper , And, it can fit large neuts and guns. However, it will do that less than half as well vs the geddon so why bother ?

Under 40 k, Geddon hits you with drones, neuts and torps. 40-80k it can run a single drone augmentor and use cruise. Domi can ....... ? Not an eft wizard but unless you can get a full rack of 1400's on it, it's useless.

When it was the Only BS drone boat it was versatile and dynamic. Now that it's the Galente Sniper Battle Ship it just sucks. And it doesn't need a +10% bonus to range to do it.


Marlona could speak more knowledgeably, but IIRC NC used sentry Ishtars vs Goon's once. Not twice, just once. That should say Alot about how sentry sniping is gonna work as a doctrine or tactic.




tbh carriers need a separate drone bay from fighter bay....
the drone bay should be limited to 1000m3, fighter bay should allow up to max 15 fighters...
the fact that you can hold so many drones in the carrier is rather silly...
the fact that fighters are not used in pvp anymore proves this...

say about fighters... how about a way to boost them they can get limited fittings... stuff like auto armor/shield reps and speed /damage mods...

plus domi is a bs so it could fit mjd and target breaker... something a gila cant.
if they made drones not disconnect if you warp around plus added small and medium sentry drones (i would love to see these btw) the sentry domi fleet concept might not be a bad idea.

like you warp in the domi's at a good angle and they deploy the sentries then they hit the mjd and get nice and close to the enemy ships in the bubble... they then go disco or nuet/nos or close range rr and tackle and clean up... and if you have to you can allways abandon the sentries and drop the heavies...

it would be cool if you could reactivate abandoned drones like you can probes....
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.