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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Gallente

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X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#801 - 2013-04-09 17:02:38 UTC
Veli ANDAC wrote:
stay cap stable in active armor tanking.
You could fit it with an afterburner instead of a mwd.... LOL, I'm killing myself here. Big smile

Also, make sure Hyperion has enough powergrid to fit larger guns to make up for loss in dps (and/or add a large drone).
Rysis Vyvorant
Shadow Legion X
Seriously Suspicious
#802 - 2013-04-09 17:04:49 UTC
IrJosy wrote:
luredivino wrote:
They removed the changes to the megathron and the hyperion, but left the changes for the Dominix that the people who use it for missions were complaining about.....


Once you get out of the newbie tutorial zone those domi changes help amazingly in null sec!


I am really struggling to see how. Drones never had an issue hitting in the first place.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#803 - 2013-04-09 17:06:30 UTC
Rysis Vyvorant wrote:
I am really struggling to see how. Drones never had an issue hitting in the first place.

Higher dps sentries will be able to hit at engagement ranges associated with BS fights in null sec.
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#804 - 2013-04-09 17:06:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Cambarus
IrJosy wrote:
luredivino wrote:
They removed the changes to the megathron and the hyperion, but left the changes for the Dominix that the people who use it for missions were complaining about.....


Once you get out of the newbie tutorial zone those domi changes help amazingly in null sec!

I can confirm that domis will completely replace slowcats because no one at CCP understands what makes slowcats good.


EDIT: Knock some turrets off the domi, give it +1 drones/+25mbit bandwidth per level instead of 10% damage.
Berial Inglebard
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#805 - 2013-04-09 17:08:30 UTC
IrJosy wrote:
Rep received is a bad idea. It is effectively only half of the resist bonus.


How would this be the case? a) resistance penalties stack, and at 4% per level you're looking at a built in EANM at lvl5. Stacked with other resist modules you're looking at maybe an effective 5% increase across the board from 70% to 75% in most cases (just assuming average battleship fleet resists here. This is negating 1/6th more damage (16.7%) making the logistics ~17% more effective. A max gal BS Hyperion with the received rep bonus would make the logistics 37.5% more effective.
Kyo Avanta
Legendary Asset Management
#806 - 2013-04-09 17:10:35 UTC
Best line in the OP was:

"We believe this is a very exciting direction for the Dominix, and hope you will too! "

Yes, making the Dominix worse than the "Suddenly Drone Boat" Armageddon is really exciting. I'm sooo looking forward to training Amarr Battleship 5.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#807 - 2013-04-09 17:10:47 UTC
Berial Inglebard wrote:
IrJosy wrote:
Rep received is a bad idea. It is effectively only half of the resist bonus.

How would this be the case? .
Resistance bonus affects both EHP and reps received.
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#808 - 2013-04-09 17:10:57 UTC
Berial Inglebard wrote:


How would this be the case? a) resistance penalties stack, .

No they don't. Ship bonuses don't stack with modules.

That said, a bump up to 10%/level and the addition of more incoming reps would make the active tank bonuses actually useful. Trade buffer for reps.
Berial Inglebard
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#809 - 2013-04-09 17:17:54 UTC
Cambarus wrote:
Berial Inglebard wrote:


How would this be the case? a) resistance penalties stack, .

No they don't. Ship bonuses don't stack with modules.

That said, a bump up to 10%/level and the addition of more incoming reps would make the active tank bonuses actually useful. Trade buffer for reps.


They do stack penalty. Throw an eanm on an abaddon and you won't see the increase the modlue says it would give. If they didn't stack penalty we'd see 95% resist abaddons flying around :P
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#810 - 2013-04-09 17:24:06 UTC
You know what? I've got it.

Hyperion gets a Hybrid damage bonus and a Hybrid falloff bonus.

Sniperion becomes a reality.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#811 - 2013-04-09 17:25:20 UTC
Havegun Willtravel wrote:
Morning Rise,

Thanks for keeping up with the feedback. Hopefully your revisions will be innovative.

"As I said in the OP, we are in a tough spot with the active armor bonuses. We don't want to throw them out, they are fun to play when they work, and we have hopes that we will continue to bring them into viability with other changes. That said, in the mean time we don't want to overcorrect for their current position in the meta."

A couple of things I would really like to get across.

'' When they work '' - they don't really. That's why the hype is mostly unused and will continue to be. Also why the proph is X times more popular than the Myrm.

"That said, in the mean time we don't want to overcorrect for their current position in the meta." This I really want an explanation to please.

Dragoon -> Proph -> Geddon. When looking for ways to innovate new game play styles and freshen up the mix with variety there doesn't seem to be an issue with Amar. However, if you play Galente you're effectively being told that an old legacy bonus that's never really worked well, still doesn't work very well. but maybe will get better is being hung around your neck Do or Die.

Ten years ago someone decided that Amar were armor tankers and gave them the two best bonus's you could ever ask for. Resists and Armor Hitpoints. Galente were also supposed to be armor tankers but someone seemed to think that DPS tanking with Blasters would make up for squishy tank. It hasn't in the least.

Add to this the fact that Galente across the board have lower pg and cap with the worst optimal and fall off and it's not hard to figure out why they've failed to have an impact or gain the popular following that other races have.

This is our chance to finally even things out but you're failing dismally to break the mold or forge a new direction. Instead we're being told that we're stuck with bad old legacy mechanics while other people move forward in new directions. This just isn't acceptable.

Armor Hitpoints would differentiate us as a tank philosophy. It would probably still make us second place to resists But, we could fit fewer plates and at least be fast enough to apply our myopic dps in more situations.

I don't want to be handcuffed to an old failed legacy anymore. I want innovation. I want to see solutions in action not promises that stuff that doesn't work might not be so bad later maybe.

Tiericide was supposed to open the door to new things. Lets see them please.


I actually really like this idea. Armor HP vs Armor resists gives different fitting options and doctrines. Keep it low so that it doesn't get stupidly high EHP, but it would allow gallente to not need plates or fit lighter plates (faster) as well as giving them a viable fleet option, it also wouldn't inherently disincentivize active rep situations.
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#812 - 2013-04-09 17:26:00 UTC
BayneNothos wrote:
Askulf Joringer wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

I saw some Hyperion work with only one cap booster. What should I believe ? What I saw, or what narrow-minded children here complain about ?

As you said, it's not that simple, but the biggest problem, looking at all the complaints, is that people only look at their tiny niche with a very narrow point of view, blinkers and absolutely zero openmindness about the possibilities these changes open. Reactions to the Dominix and the Megathron say quite a lot about this in fact.

Lookinng at the changes, Hyperion and Megathron kind of swap their original roles, but people don't care : Hyperion does not exists to them because of "useless" armor rep bonus, and their beloved Megathron supposedly died, whereas none of these assesrtion hold any bit of truth, and if you actually read the comments, yould see it.


Getting a little defense there eh? Try running a Dual rep Hyperion with a single cap booster bro, it's not stable. You want a dual rep setup to work with a single injector then the cap consumption of Large reppers is going to have to be reduced.

There is plenty of "openmindness" in this thread however many of these charges are simply terrible. The changes to the megathron are far less sever than the changes to the Hyperion btw. Failure to understand that is a simple admittance of self imposed ignorance, I'd suggest stopping that asap.


Single Heavy Cap Booster 2 is saying 4mins for me before heat etc. Seems pretty standard amount of cap to me. And that assuming you need to run both reppers full time...


Get out of EFT and go play eve. In practice a Single Heavy cap injector does NOT sustain a Dual rep Hype for any reasonable amount of time.
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#813 - 2013-04-09 17:27:34 UTC
Kyo Avanta wrote:
Best line in the OP was:

"We believe this is a very exciting direction for the Dominix, and hope you will too! "

Yes, making the Dominix worse than the "Suddenly Drone Boat" Armageddon is really exciting. I'm sooo looking forward to training Amarr Battleship 5.


If dropping a gun bonus for another drone bonus is considered "Exciting" by ccp, I can only imagine how boring their "boring" is...
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#814 - 2013-04-09 17:28:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Cambarus
Berial Inglebard wrote:

They do stack penalty. Throw an eanm on an abaddon and you won't see the increase the modlue says it would give. If they didn't stack penalty we'd see 95% resist abaddons flying around :P

You should REALLY read up on how the game works before commenting in threads like this, bit I'll explain it for you nonetheless:

Abaddon has a base explosive resist of 40% in armor with BS 5
Put an explosive hardener on it, and that resist goes to 73%
This means that there is no stacking penalty, because:
Resist mods don't ADD resists, they reduce damage taken.
A 55% hardener doesn't add 55% resists, it takes the explosive damage you would otherwise take, and reduces it by 55%.

You can check this by doing some simple math:

If you're taking 100 DPS of explosive damage at 40% resist (which would mean ~167 dps base being applied), and you add a hardener, your resist goes to 73%, meaning you now only take 27% of the base damage. 27% of 167 is ~45, or 45% of what you would have taken without the hardener. This means that a 55% hardener should in theory take you from 40% resist to 73, because this is the point at which 55% of the incoming explosive damage is negated, which is exactly what it does in game.

If resists were added to the base resist rather than subtracted from incoming damage, you would see every ship in the game sporting over 100% resists in most fits.
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#815 - 2013-04-09 17:35:48 UTC
OK CCP here's my take on this:

Note: SInce you've removed the updates I can't comment on them specifically. So, I'll just comment on what roles Gal BS's currently fill.


Dominix: The dominix currently fills the role of a heavy tank lower dps ships that is immensely flexible. And though it's not sexy to fly, it's reliable. It most closely fills the roll of a combat ship as you've defined except for DPS, it's lacking

Megathron: This ship has always been a solid attack ship. Its weakness is tank compared to the Domi but makes up for it in DPS at +1000dps with blasters and drone damage. It does have some flexibility in that it can field ECM drones plus one large neut. It most closely fills your attack ship role.

Hyperion: This ship has never had a role. Frankly, everything about this ship is subpar. Oh sure, on paper you can get 1400dps out of it but you can't hit the broadside of a barn with it even if you've triple webbed the barn. I've got 2 of them that I've spent years playing with here and there trying to find a role it can fill successfully. It's just fail!

The Dominix and the Mega are fine the way they are. The only ship that needs changed is the Hyperion. I don't really care what you do with it. Make it fill your bombardment role.....that's laughable with blasters....but still.....maybe this is your opportunity to both give it a role and make rails a valid pvp weapons platform......*hint* *hint* *wink* *wink*

Don't ban me, bro!
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#816 - 2013-04-09 17:43:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Maximus Andendare
Havegun Willtravel wrote:
. . .Armor Hitpoints would differentiate us as a tank philosophy. It would probably still make us second place to resists But, we could fit fewer plates and at least be fast enough to apply our myopic dps in more situations.

I don't want to be handcuffed to an old failed legacy anymore. I want innovation. I want to see solutions in action not promises that stuff that doesn't work might not be so bad later maybe.

Tiericide was supposed to open the door to new things. Lets see them please.
Why not do away with the active armor repping bonus on ships altogether and add in a Rig that increases the active armor rep amount? By a balanced amount, not necessarily 37.5%--it could be 15% or 20% for T1 to 30% T2, or whatever works out. That way, you'd leave all the armor ship pilots free to exercise active armor tanking when they see a need that fits their playstyle, and you would further differentiate between armor and shield tanking. The rig would not slow the ship down, so the pilot could choose active rigs (active rig, nano pump, and a nanobot (or perhaps resist or lower cap usage one)) or buffer ones (resists or trimarks).

As far as adding a +hp bonus, I do agree this would give Gallente more buffer on their ships, but I don't think it would address the issue of stronger remote reps received or the fact that they would still have to fit Armor plates (resist bonuses save the ship an EANM) to get an extended benefit from the change or that reppers would have to work harder to rep all the damage increased armor hitpoints would reflect. I do think its a creative solution, but I don't know if it'd work as well on a T1 hull without the juicy T2 resist profiles afforded by other ships that use a +armor hp per level--namely T3s. Maybe another rig could affect remote reps received?

I just don't know of another singular stat that benefits all aspects of tanking (buffer/remote/local) that a resist bonus does, and while I'm not advocating giving Gallente the same old go-to resist bonus, I am at a loss for another singular stat that does so much.

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Tritanium Avenger
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#817 - 2013-04-09 17:44:27 UTC
Just one question:
Now that large railguns are about to get completely removed from the game, would it be possible to have a viable blaster bs to do lvl4 missions?
Kyo Avanta
Legendary Asset Management
#818 - 2013-04-09 17:45:35 UTC
Askulf Joringer wrote:


If dropping a gun bonus for another drone bonus is considered "Exciting" by ccp, I can only imagine how boring their "boring" is...



CCP : "Hey we've got a fun and exciting idea for the Dominix!!"

Player: "Oooh! Do tell!"

CCP: "Okay ! We're going to make it less dynamic and make it purely a drone boat!!"

Player: "Uh but what about using blasters as a close range brawler??"

CCP: "Nope!"

Player: "What about using it as a neut domi?"

CCP: "Nope! The Armageddon now does that a lot better :) "

Player: "Whaat?"

CCP: "Yup! But the Domi is GREAT for sniping and kiting with sentries though!!"

Player: "But sentries don't move....?"

CCP: "Yup! Very Exciting. o7 m8 o7"
Berial Inglebard
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#819 - 2013-04-09 17:48:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Berial Inglebard
Cambarus wrote:
Berial Inglebard wrote:

They do stack penalty. Throw an eanm on an abaddon and you won't see the increase the modlue says it would give. If they didn't stack penalty we'd see 95% resist abaddons flying around :P

You should REALLY read up on how the game works before commenting in threads like this, bit I'll explain it for you nonetheless:

Abaddon has a base explosive resist of 40% in armor with BS 5
Put an explosive hardener on it, and that resist goes to 73%
This means that there is no stacking penalty, because:
Resist mods don't ADD resists, they reduce damage taken.
A 55% hardener doesn't add 55% resists, it takes the explosive damage you would otherwise take, and reduces it by 55%.

You can check this by doing some simple math:

If you're taking 100 DPS of explosive damage at 40% resist (which would mean ~167 dps base being applied), and you add a hardener, your resist goes to 73%, meaning you now only take 27% of the base damage. 27% of 167 is ~45, or 45% of what you would have taken without the hardener. This means that a 55% hardener should in theory take you from 40% resist to 73, because this is the point at which 55% of the incoming explosive damage is negated, which is exactly what it does in game.

If resists were added to the base resist rather than subtracted from incoming damage, you would see every ship in the game sporting over 100% resists in most fits.


You seem to be correct here. However, I'm still failing to see that, if an abaddon is, at max level post odessy, resisting 20% more damage AFTER all other resist are calculated, how does that make it "far worse" than a hyperion that would receive a 37.5% boost to received remote reps? Yes, I get that the hyperion would have lower EHP, making it more vulnerable to alpha. That's the point of the change I proposed.

Edit: also, I knew they didn't stack straight up, that's why I was referencing stacking penalties. Everyone should know:
1st mod: 100.0% effectiveness
2nd mod: 86.9% effectiveness
3rd mod: 57.1% effectiveness
4th mod: 28.3% effectiveness
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#820 - 2013-04-09 17:51:59 UTC
Kyo Avanta wrote:
Askulf Joringer wrote:


If dropping a gun bonus for another drone bonus is considered "Exciting" by ccp, I can only imagine how boring their "boring" is...



Player: "Uh but what about using blasters as a close range brawler??"

CCP: "Nope!"





When did it lose this option?

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.