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EvE, How too retain a newbie from a newbie's perspective

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Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#21 - 2013-04-09 14:06:31 UTC
Job Valador wrote:
and some sort of forum mod please lock my post I think i may have started something bad up again -_-


Don't advert your eyes from it, this is the Eve community you joined. Blink

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
Markatta
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2013-04-09 14:10:43 UTC
Job Valador wrote:
and some sort of forum mod please lock my post I think i may have started something bad up again -_-

Come on now, embrace the drama! P It's like watching scam wars in Jita, or people calling each other out in help chat, or having a bounty placed on you for talking in /local. Admit it - there's some sense of fascination under your initial shock / confusion / revulsion.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#23 - 2013-04-09 14:12:11 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
I've played EVE long enough to know those folks who were posting just want to harass newbies even more than they already do....thus the stalking horse of the thread was to get them into Low Sec.


I disagree with those accusations. I see them as honestly just wanting newbies to be given a more well rounded impression of what is possible, and what the game is like. The overwhelming impression you get if you sit in newbie and recruitment channels is that lowsec and nullsec are quite inaccessible to new players and that's just wrong and needs challenging. If you want to argue about whether or not this is the impression newbies get, or if it's a fair impression to give, then go ahead, but don't make dishonest statements about it being some covert attempt to harass new players.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#24 - 2013-04-09 14:15:35 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
I've played EVE long enough to know those folks who were posting just want to harass newbies even more than they already do....thus the stalking horse of the thread was to get them into Low Sec.


I disagree with those accusations. I see them as honestly just wanting newbies to be given a more well rounded impression of what is possible, and what the game is like. The overwhelming impression you get if you sit in newbie and recruitment channels is that lowsec and nullsec are quite inaccessible to new players and that's just wrong and needs challenging. If you want to argue about whether or not this is the impression newbies get, or if it's a fair impression to give, then go ahead, but don't make dishonest statements about it being some covert attempt to harass new players.



My comment was applicable only in regards to the particular thread yesterday.

Yes, the new player experience could be better. But as usual, that thread devolved into methods that would do nothing but create targets for lulz.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Xen Solarus
Furious Destruction and Salvage
#25 - 2013-04-09 15:22:12 UTC
Its true that many of the threads in these forums demonstrate a distinction between viewpoints. I often find it the most telling that the highsec haters are more than happy to have people leave the game. This demonstrates that they care more about their own niche and opinion than they do the continued health and growth of EvE as a whole.

EvE is a great game for the very reason that it allows gameplay styles from all walks of life. From the hardcore highsec carebear industrialist that never undocks, to the hardcore pirate scumbag only looking to harvest the tears of his victims. The highsec haters believe that their style of gameplay is the only style, and that everyone should, or should eventually, play the game for exactly the same reason as them. They are wrong, regardless of how many times they scream "PvP only game!" why blasting defenceless targets to atoms.

People should be open and accepting that EvE caters for different people. Its one of the best aspects that sets it aside from other games. It's a true sandbox! The players that are more than willing, even eager, to see people leave that don't fit their mindset are selfish in the extreme. They are more interested in their own gameplay than the continued growth and development of the game.

Post with your main, like a BOSS!

And no, i don't live in highsec.  As if that would make your opinion any less wrong.  
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#26 - 2013-04-09 15:26:09 UTC
This thread again.....





☼

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2013-04-09 15:29:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Murk Paradox
Xen Solarus wrote:
Its true that many of the threads in these forums demonstrate a distinction between viewpoints. I often find it the most telling that the highsec haters are more than happy to have people leave the game. This demonstrates that they care more about their own niche and opinion than they do the continued health and growth of EvE as a whole.

EvE is a great game for the very reason that it allows gameplay styles from all walks of life. From the hardcore highsec carebear industrialist that never undocks, to the hardcore pirate scumbag only looking to harvest the tears of his victims. The highsec haters believe that their style of gameplay is the only style, and that everyone should, or should eventually, play the game for exactly the same reason as them. They are wrong, regardless of how many times they scream "PvP only game!" why blasting defenceless targets to atoms.

People should be open and accepting that EvE caters for different people. Its one of the best aspects that sets it aside from other games. It's a true sandbox! The players that are more than willing, even eager, to see people leave that don't fit their mindset are selfish in the extreme. They are more interested in their own gameplay than the continued growth and development of the game.



Funnily enough some of the most cutthroat pirates are the coolest people too.

And there are quite a few people who will wave at you if you evade their gate camp, will say hi, and still try to kill you.

Then there's people who take this game way too seriously =(

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Totalrx
NA No Assholes
#28 - 2013-04-09 15:46:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Totalrx
When people ask me about Eve, I give them a very broad, generic overview of what there is to do. This includes the types of mining, mission types, NPC corps, ratting, exploration, trading, market pvp, player corps, pirating, sov space, POS's, etc

I then tell them that you go through the tutorial and are basically told:

"Here is space - go do something"

Many of them hear that short overview and decide right then that the game is too much for them.

Many of those who sign up and actually make it through the tutorial, quit at the "Here is space..." part.

Some of them have gone and joined a player corp to go PVP. At little over half of them quit the game shortly after. They went out, they got blown up time and time again and just didn't find that enjoyable. For many of them, it was being reliant on the corp to replace and refit their ship. They felt it was a "Use this & do this" situation as they did not have the financial independence to make any decisions on their own. The vet members, already knowing more about the game, basically had a "shut up & do what we say and that's how you learn" attitude. Becoming a repeat version of the person who mentored them wasn't exactly what they wanted, they wanted to be themselves.

Eve is like that though. It's not for everyone.

Not every player is going to have the ability to figure out what direction to take and what they want on their own. Even if a direction is handed to them, they may still quit simply because they realize the game was played for them by somebody else.

There's still a few high sec corps that will help a new player out simply by answering questions, but not by steering the player into one direction or another. Help them out, but don't carry them. Ensure they contribute to the corp, but don't make it so their actions need to be corp dedicated. Not that many guidance corps left. They've been war dec'ed into obscurity lol!

New players coming and going. Old players complaining....

This is Eve is and has been that way since I started playing in 2003. As much as it has changed, the fact that many new players simply quit the game because it's not linear enough for them, has remained unchanged.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#29 - 2013-04-09 15:49:04 UTC
What's worse are the corps who advertise you can bypass all of that and go directly into a nullsec corp and learn "endgame" (what an attraction!) and then find out everyone is bitter about sov grinds and how op highsec is.

And then find out those same people run highsec alts.

Then complain about how broken the game is, and now you have disenfranchised rookies who slapped themselves for making such an investment.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#30 - 2013-04-09 15:49:40 UTC
Totalrx wrote:


This is Eve is and has been that way since I started playing in 2003. As much as it has changed, the fact that many new players simply quit the game because it's not linear enough for them, has remained unchanged.



Exactly. That thread yesterday was indeed trying to advocate a more linear experience. When I was new, I enjoyed the randomness of just discovering all the things to do.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Velicitia
XS Tech
#31 - 2013-04-09 16:01:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
Murk Paradox wrote:


Funnily enough some of the most cutthroat pirates are the coolest people too.

And there are quite a few people who will wave at you if you evade their gate camp, will say hi, and still try to kill you.

Then there's people who take this game way too seriously =(



my first "teachers" were the "lowsec pirate" types.

Jumped a gate into lowsec and died in some hilarious manner (IIRC, had a shield/armor/hull repper, and some other terribad crap on a Tristan). Luckily I didn't get podded, and they had a chat with me explaining how it is bad to put all 3 reppers on a frigate, and what else I should be fitting.

I learned right then and there that lowsec wasn't somewhere for a 2 day old rookie who had spend 36 (or more) of the last 48 hours training learning skills and random long "buffer" skills to avoid not having something training, as there was no skill queue in those days. Though with the help of those pirates, I got a ~week long skill plan to make lowsec more survivable.

These days, without the need for learning skills, I imagine that a pilot could be "Lowsec capable" within that timespan of 2 days (at least with pilot SP and skills). Though, it might take a week to get the player skills necessary to handle lowsec (though YMMV -- might only take those first 2 days).

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#32 - 2013-04-09 17:32:20 UTC
Yea I first learned when I accidentally entered lowsec not knowing anything about ransoms. I knew the risk, but I wanted to see the place. I docked up in a COURTHOUSE of all places, and got pointed and couldn't make it back to dock. In a new shiny omen I spent all my money on.

I couldn't afford the ransom and so got blown up.

I think had a conversation with the guy and he set me straight.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#33 - 2013-04-09 17:51:42 UTC
Job Valador wrote:
One of my closer friends in EvE (Teki Awong) Started out in eve and played eve for a long time completely Independent without much interaction with other players and was fine with that and moved on to the player corp scene in his own time]


That's exactly how I play and people will tell me I'm doing it wrong but I'm making ISK and learning the game just fine. Afterall it's player versus player, not co-op. I've got my plan and I play casually so Eve's ridiculous training times don't frustrate me. I want to try everything a solo character can do at my own pace. I don't want the game to run my life but I want to play it for years.

forums.  serious business.
Haulie Berry
#34 - 2013-04-09 17:52:05 UTC
Quote:
This demonstrates that they care more about their own niche and opinion than they do the continued health and growth of EvE as a whole.


Or they simply understand that any attempt to make Eve a game "for everyone" would very quickly make it a game for no one.
Beckie DeLey
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2013-04-09 18:08:48 UTC
Ugh.

If you wanted to discuss this in a productive manner, you shouldn't have posted it in GD. That's just asking for it -.-



As for the thread you are referring to... you'll note that the both incredibly handsome and smart person that opened it didn't have in mind to start a discussion about "those evil carebears". It's just that two of their posterchilds decided to invade the thread and tried to shove ye ol' "Go and do mission!" down newbies throats to oppose the more openended approach because it offended their view that everything needs to be measured in ISK/hour and that any form of danger is obviously bad.

If you wanna carebear, then go ahead. Suit yourself. But don't poison the newbies before they even have had the chance to experience both sides. Newbs are not going to learn anything by restraining them from day one.

My siren's name is Brick and she is the prettiest.
Alien Youth
The forsaken swarm
#36 - 2013-04-09 18:19:59 UTC
OP please understand that we no longer play eve.. we only keep our accounts going to tell everyone else they are wrong for how they chose to play the game.
Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#37 - 2013-04-09 18:26:58 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
What I found ironic in that 'other' thread was the anti-carebears insisting that the tutorial hand-hold new players through all aspects of the game including Low Sec (a part which would not work at all for obvious reasons).

Most of the fun early on for me was having to figure things out on my own and even find out about them by encountering them, then investigating.

They cry so loudly about not wanting EVE to be a theme-park, but that thread yesterday was about making EVE into anything but a Sandbox.

Actually, that other thread was about Castle Builders in the sandbox taking in newcomers. Then telling said newcomers they must stay in the castle builders corner, hoard sand and build castles.

The entire point of it was helping newbros realize they are in a sandbox and should be encouraged to explore and use their imagination.

Science and Trade Institute [STI] is an NPC entity and as such my views do not represent those of the entity or any of its members

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=276984&p=38
Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#38 - 2013-04-09 18:37:41 UTC
Beckie DeLey wrote:
If you wanna carebear, then go ahead. Suit yourself. But don't poison the newbies before they even have had the chance to experience both sides. Newbs are not going to learn anything by restraining them from day one.


well, they will learn to be independently wealthy which is vital for being a member of certain PvP corps and not everyone wants a second boss.

forums.  serious business.
Aracimia Wolfe
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#39 - 2013-04-09 18:49:09 UTC
Markatta wrote:
I wonder, if new players started in low- or null-sec, would the post to which the OP refers have complained about newbie over-exposure to Goons...?


I doubt it. Whether or not you hate em is irrelevant to the fact that Goonswarm and the CFC as a whole look after their noobs. They looked after me when I first started and I haven't scammed anyone ever!


Hmm maybe they did it wrong.

Kill it with Fire!

Galan Amarias
Kantian Principle
#40 - 2013-04-09 18:54:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Galan Amarias
My first trips to low sec were a result offailure to check where the things I was buying on the, arket were actually located. I met some guys sniping at warp to 15's on the gate and survived long enough to warp out. That was the day I learned to use the map. Found another route to where I wanted to be and left.

Another time I was tackled in a belt by an interceptor while his raven and caracle buddies came in at range. My web solved his speed and he warped out in structure, then I warped. We talked and I vowed to never again fly without a point.

I've spent hours teaching new players about dscan, docking mechanics, the map and why warp stabs kill your fun. Many of them lost ships, some didn't. I have, well had, hate mails from people that were mad about the gate camp, and glorious fights with small gangs that decided to rise to the same challenge.

People telling new players to avoid low sec are doing themselves and the game a disservice. They perpetuate the myths that sp are more important than player skill and that more isk equals winning at pvp, or the worst of all, that any ship exploding is a tragedy.

Pew pew isn't for everyone, to those who don't want to fight I wish you well, you build my stuff and buy the random odds and ends I find. However be honest, you may not like pew pew but that does not makeit bad or those who do evil.
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