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Increased opportunities for PvP - Jump drives work only in nulsec

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Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#61 - 2013-04-09 15:19:27 UTC
Fatbear wrote:
What do you jokers think happened before Jump Freighters were put in?

You actually had convoys, with escorts, and interdictions/commerce raiding. Hell, convoy runs from Tenal down to Taisy 'back in the day' were some of the best fleets I've been on.


You did the whole route via gates or did you use titan bridges or jump bridges? And what kind of support did you have on standby for the low sec portion?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Velicitia
XS Tech
#62 - 2013-04-09 15:29:45 UTC
Fatbear wrote:
What do you jokers think happened before Jump Freighters were put in?

You actually had convoys, with escorts, and interdictions/commerce raiding. Hell, convoy runs from Tenal down to Taisy 'back in the day' were some of the best fleets I've been on.


Freighters in hisec ... maybe 1 jump into a controlled lowsec. Then carriers (or the Rorqual) from there to where ever. Prior to that, I imagine that it was all industrials and the like (IIRC, caps and freighters came out at the same time -- but I could be wrong).

HOWEVER -- the proposed change here is "no more jumpdrive activation anywhere in empire". Jump Freighters aside, this breaks every other capship in the game.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Jacid
The Upside Down
Forfeiture
#63 - 2013-04-09 16:08:46 UTC
I think the OP is wrong on this, in order to make null sec industry more popular you have to do one of two things either make null industry more profitable or make high sec industry less. If you want more people in null sec you have to make the content in null sec more profitable/fun or make high sec less profitable/fun. If you stop jump drives from working in low sec you will have less people then you do already running industry in null and less people in null in general because its more of a pain to move ships supplies etc.

As for the big blue donut i don't know entirely the solution for this. I know that because of passive income (moon goo) big blocks of power are getting more isk doing less every single day. I agree with many of the posts on the forums that alliance funding needs to be from the bottom up not the top down (ring mining and alliance wide taxes). This at least would stop passive income and would force alliances to compete with each other for the lowest tax or the best resource. I know that sov based off usage of a system might be a help to open new space up for new alliances.

I digress though, the short answer to the OP is no it won't work and you will have the opposite effect on null sec with what your trying to.

My 2 Cents
Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#64 - 2013-04-10 02:20:32 UTC
Jacid wrote:


As for the big blue donut i don't know entirely the solution for this. I know that because of passive income (moon goo) big blocks of power are getting more isk doing less every single day.


Actually no. They do pretty much the same thing day in and day out. And some alliances like PL spend just about as much isk as they make.

Quote:
I agree with many of the posts on the forums that alliance funding needs to be from the bottom up not the top down (ring mining and alliance wide taxes). This at least would stop passive income and would force alliances to compete with each other for the lowest tax or the best resource. I know that sov based off usage of a system might be a help to open new space up for new alliances.


You wont get this in null without some changes. Mining in null sucks relative to the ease of empire. Building, aside from caps and super caps, sucks too.

Quote:
I digress though, the short answer to the OP is no it won't work and you will have the opposite effect on null sec with what your trying to.

My 2 Cents


I like the cut of your jib young man!

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Acac Sunflyier
The Dysfunctionals
Goonswarm Federation
#65 - 2013-04-10 02:26:20 UTC
really really really dumb ideas.

For one that'd decrease it cause you're limiting the total number of places a cap fight can happen. Did the OP really forget the CFC/HBC cap fight that just happened in lowsec?

For 2, you kill all chance of fw cap warfare.
Acac Sunflyier
The Dysfunctionals
Goonswarm Federation
#66 - 2013-04-10 02:26:44 UTC
For three, caps are bought and sold in lowsec you dummie
Mikhael Taron
Four Winds Industry
Roadhouse Regulars
#67 - 2013-04-10 13:59:52 UTC
Velicitia wrote:

IIRC, that's 80% of the characters, not 80% of the players living in empire. So, you have to factor out the nullsec alts, and the lowsec pirate hauler alts too.

Fact of the matter is though, lowsec is a "semi-safe" place for new corps and alliances to get their feet wet with capships.

Though -- I don't follow your reasoning that "getting rid of JD usage in empire" will help hisec industrialists. I mean, if it's that much harder to move crap from empire to nullsec; the nullsec alliances will just turn to their internal sources for everything, and that'll (for a while anyway) gut the empire markets, until all the oversupply is finally bled off.


Not so much help them in terms of isk profit, but they will have an advantage in terms of armaments and resupply. The antipathy shown by the sov-holders to this idea makes me believe they will not be so good at the industrial side of things. This translates into an advantage for anyone, not just empire, who have built up a manufacturing base capable of supporting the alliance of which its a part.

You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.
Mikhael Taron
Four Winds Industry
Roadhouse Regulars
#68 - 2013-04-10 14:03:11 UTC
Acac Sunflyier wrote:
For three, caps are bought and sold in lowsec you dummie


Dummy... if you insist on name-calling at least get right the spelling.

As for your comment: not after this change.

You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#69 - 2013-04-10 14:14:42 UTC
Mikhael Taron wrote:
Acac Sunflyier wrote:
For three, caps are bought and sold in lowsec you dummie


Dummy... if you insist on name-calling at least get right the spelling.

As for your comment: not after this change.

So what will happen to those caps now since they need a cyno to move? Do you not see that this destroys so many opportunities in already barren low sec? And like another poster said what about caps in faction warfare?
(I meant to post a reply centered around this a few days ago but when it wouldn't post, then deleted, I gave up)

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--
Velicitia
XS Tech
#70 - 2013-04-10 14:42:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
Mikhael Taron wrote:
Velicitia wrote:

IIRC, that's 80% of the characters, not 80% of the players living in empire. So, you have to factor out the nullsec alts, and the lowsec pirate hauler alts too.

Fact of the matter is though, lowsec is a "semi-safe" place for new corps and alliances to get their feet wet with capships.

Though -- I don't follow your reasoning that "getting rid of JD usage in empire" will help hisec industrialists. I mean, if it's that much harder to move crap from empire to nullsec; the nullsec alliances will just turn to their internal sources for everything, and that'll (for a while anyway) gut the empire markets, until all the oversupply is finally bled off.


Not so much help them in terms of isk profit, but they will have an advantage in terms of armaments and resupply. The antipathy shown by the sov-holders to this idea makes me believe they will not be so good at the industrial side of things. This translates into an advantage for anyone, not just empire, who have built up a manufacturing base capable of supporting the alliance of which its a part.


[sarcasm]
you're absolutely right, nullsec alliances have zero mining capacity. It's not like they wouldn't bring down their (currently residing in hisec) mining alts, and tear through constellations like locusts.
[/sarcasm]

First problem right now today with nullsec is that it has less than 5% of the industrial capacity of hisec (i.e. available slots, not players with the skills).

Fix this part, and the "problem" will take care of itself.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Mikhael Taron
Four Winds Industry
Roadhouse Regulars
#71 - 2013-04-10 19:01:40 UTC
Velicitia wrote:

[sarcasm]
you're absolutely right, nullsec alliances have zero mining capacity. It's not like they wouldn't bring down their (currently residing in hisec) mining alts, and tear through constellations like locusts.
[/sarcasm]

First problem right now today with nullsec is that it has less than 5% of the industrial capacity of hisec (i.e. available slots, not players with the skills).

Fix this part, and the "problem" will take care of itself.

That's not what I want. Disruption of supplylines between empire and sov space is what I want. More opportunities for PvP as it becomes more dangerous for the freighting of goods. This accomplishes that in a very simple fashion.

You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.
Mikhael Taron
Four Winds Industry
Roadhouse Regulars
#72 - 2013-04-10 19:03:59 UTC
Drake Doe wrote:
Mikhael Taron wrote:
Acac Sunflyier wrote:
For three, caps are bought and sold in lowsec you dummie


Dummy... if you insist on name-calling at least get right the spelling.

As for your comment: not after this change.

So what will happen to those caps now since they need a cyno to move? Do you not see that this destroys so many opportunities in already barren low sec? And like another poster said what about caps in faction warfare?
(I meant to post a reply centered around this a few days ago but when it wouldn't post, then deleted, I gave up)

Caps in FW? I have an alt in FW and it's all frigates to BC, and BC is rare. As for losec being barren: losing the risk of hot drops would promote more activity in losec, not less.

You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.
Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#73 - 2013-04-10 20:06:05 UTC
Mikhael Taron wrote:
Velicitia wrote:

[sarcasm]
you're absolutely right, nullsec alliances have zero mining capacity. It's not like they wouldn't bring down their (currently residing in hisec) mining alts, and tear through constellations like locusts.
[/sarcasm]

First problem right now today with nullsec is that it has less than 5% of the industrial capacity of hisec (i.e. available slots, not players with the skills).

Fix this part, and the "problem" will take care of itself.

That's not what I want. Disruption of supplylines between empire and sov space is what I want. More opportunities for PvP as it becomes more dangerous for the freighting of goods. This accomplishes that in a very simple fashion.


Unless you are an alliance like Goonswarm with a high sec/null sec entry. Then you can enjoy the benefits of both null and high sec with almost zero disruption.

Yeah...lets buff Goonswarm!

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Mikhael Taron
Four Winds Industry
Roadhouse Regulars
#74 - 2013-04-11 08:47:23 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Mikhael Taron wrote:
Velicitia wrote:

[sarcasm]
you're absolutely right, nullsec alliances have zero mining capacity. It's not like they wouldn't bring down their (currently residing in hisec) mining alts, and tear through constellations like locusts.
[/sarcasm]

First problem right now today with nullsec is that it has less than 5% of the industrial capacity of hisec (i.e. available slots, not players with the skills).

Fix this part, and the "problem" will take care of itself.

That's not what I want. Disruption of supplylines between empire and sov space is what I want. More opportunities for PvP as it becomes more dangerous for the freighting of goods. This accomplishes that in a very simple fashion.


Unless you are an alliance like Goonswarm with a high sec/null sec entry. Then you can enjoy the benefits of both null and high sec with almost zero disruption.

Yeah...lets buff Goonswarm!

The industry in that hisec system must be formidable to be able to replace the journey from Jita.

You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#75 - 2013-04-11 11:40:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
Mikhael Taron wrote:
Velicitia wrote:

[sarcasm]
you're absolutely right, nullsec alliances have zero mining capacity. It's not like they wouldn't bring down their (currently residing in hisec) mining alts, and tear through constellations like locusts.
[/sarcasm]

First problem right now today with nullsec is that it has less than 5% of the industrial capacity of hisec (i.e. available slots, not players with the skills).

Fix this part, and the "problem" will take care of itself.

That's not what I want. Disruption of supplylines between empire and sov space is what I want. More opportunities for PvP as it becomes more dangerous for the freighting of goods. This accomplishes that in a very simple fashion.


You're going about it the wrong way though.

If you break supply from empire -> null (and obviously null -> empire), null will turn their resources internal. You'll see a lot of the current holders turtle up on their important systems, and probably move "important" systems around a bit. edit -- not to mention T2 supplies will dwindle in empire.

That sounds great -- more unused space for new alliances, right?

Well, how are the little guys gonna get stuff? I mean, they have 1 system of SOV. It's probably something crap like -0.1, and has no station, so EVERYTHING is made in a POS. They have no caps yet, because they've only just set up, and it's gonna take 2-3 weeks to build one, ignoring any time needed to mine & refine the minerals (oh, and they have a hard 75% cap on refining).

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Fatbear
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#76 - 2013-04-11 14:51:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Fatbear
Teckos Pech wrote:

You did the whole route via gates or did you use titan bridges or jump bridges? And what kind of support did you have on standby for the low sec portion?


At that stage in the game there was only one Titan in existance, ASCN's Avatar.

We're talking half a dozen Freighters, flown conventionally, all the way down from S-EVIQ to Taisy.

Our escort fleet was around 150, of all shapes and sizes.

Velicitia wrote:
Freighters in hisec ... maybe 1 jump into a controlled lowsec. Then carriers (or the Rorqual) from there to where ever. Prior to that, I imagine that it was all industrials and the like (IIRC, caps and freighters came out at the same time -- but I could be wrong).


See above. Carriers? What, you think we stopped and fitted every ship so we could use Maintenance Bays? No. Freighters all the way, across three regions of nullsec, and then some lowsec too.



This stuff actually happened people. No bridges, no JFs, just long long fleets guarding lots and lots of freighters. It's clear that so many players are so used to the toys and gimmicks that are available in Eve now that the very idea of commerce raiding simply doesn't exist in your minds.
Mikhael Taron
Four Winds Industry
Roadhouse Regulars
#77 - 2013-04-11 16:38:25 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
You're going about it the wrong way though.

If you break supply from empire -> null (and obviously null -> empire), null will turn their resources internal. You'll see a lot of the current holders turtle up on their important systems, and probably move "important" systems around a bit. edit -- not to mention T2 supplies will dwindle in empire.

That sounds great -- more unused space for new alliances, right?

Well, how are the little guys gonna get stuff? I mean, they have 1 system of SOV. It's probably something crap like -0.1, and has no station, so EVERYTHING is made in a POS. They have no caps yet, because they've only just set up, and it's gonna take 2-3 weeks to build one, ignoring any time needed to mine & refine the minerals (oh, and they have a hard 75% cap on refining).

It becomes more obvious why CCP implemented NPC nulsec, complete with NPC stations where capitals can be manufactured. Certainly if an alliance wanted to jump from empire straight into sov it would be a bloody hard few weeks (months?). Using NPC nul as a staging post would be an obvious step.

You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#78 - 2013-04-11 16:50:17 UTC
Fatbear wrote:

Velicitia wrote:
Freighters in hisec ... maybe 1 jump into a controlled lowsec. Then carriers (or the Rorqual) from there to where ever. Prior to that, I imagine that it was all industrials and the like (IIRC, caps and freighters came out at the same time -- but I could be wrong).


See above. Carriers? What, you think we stopped and fitted every ship so we could use Maintenance Bays? No. Freighters all the way, across three regions of nullsec, and then some lowsec too.



This stuff actually happened people. No bridges, no JFs, just long long fleets guarding lots and lots of freighters. It's clear that so many players are so used to the toys and gimmicks that are available in Eve now that the very idea of commerce raiding simply doesn't exist in your minds.


Freighters -> carriers/rorq was personal experience for smaller goods (i.e. a ship here and there, but mostly other low volume/unit goods), though I was very low in the ranks at the time (2009), and could very well have just not been aware of the alliance-level logistics trains.

I know I had done trips of several jumps through null (7-10 before empire) in a scouted freighter.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Velicitia
XS Tech
#79 - 2013-04-11 17:07:19 UTC
Mikhael Taron wrote:

It becomes more obvious why CCP implemented NPC nulsec, complete with NPC stations where capitals can be manufactured. Certainly if an alliance wanted to jump from empire straight into sov it would be a bloody hard few weeks (months?). Using NPC nul as a staging post would be an obvious step.


right, because a non-capital-owning empire alliance looking to move into nullsec will be able to get enough assets and security to

1. take over a station system to build in
2. provide enough security to actually obtain the material necessary to build caps.


Curse - 50 systems, 35 systems with stations, 27 systems with mfg lines.
Great Wildlands - 101 systems, 3 systems with stations, 2 systems with mfg lines
Outer Ring - 59 systems, 3 systems with stations, 2 systems with mfg lines
Stain - 132 systems, 49 systems with stations, 28 systems with mfg lines
Syndicate - 106 systems, 64 with stations, 28 systems with mfg lines
Venal - 95 systems, 7 systems with stations, 5 systems with mfg lines.


good luck.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#80 - 2013-04-11 17:32:15 UTC
Mikhael Taron wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Mikhael Taron wrote:
Velicitia wrote:

[sarcasm]
you're absolutely right, nullsec alliances have zero mining capacity. It's not like they wouldn't bring down their (currently residing in hisec) mining alts, and tear through constellations like locusts.
[/sarcasm]

First problem right now today with nullsec is that it has less than 5% of the industrial capacity of hisec (i.e. available slots, not players with the skills).

Fix this part, and the "problem" will take care of itself.

That's not what I want. Disruption of supplylines between empire and sov space is what I want. More opportunities for PvP as it becomes more dangerous for the freighting of goods. This accomplishes that in a very simple fashion.


Unless you are an alliance like Goonswarm with a high sec/null sec entry. Then you can enjoy the benefits of both null and high sec with almost zero disruption.

Yeah...lets buff Goonswarm!

The industry in that hisec system must be formidable to be able to replace the journey from Jita.


Okay, that went right over your head. Goons wont have to replace the journey from Jita. EC- is null. Torrinos is high sec. So they can jump stuff out to Dekelin very easyily, unlike say Fountain.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online