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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Gallente

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Vivien Sureflight
The Artists
#741 - 2013-04-09 14:53:07 UTC
I really dislike what you're proposing for the Dominix. Its strength is in its versatility, and part of that versatility comes from being able to use blasters for more than just the laughs. As is, the Dominix occupies some of the highest potential DPS in the game, while also maintaining the ability to be fit in a variety of ways. I would much rather it stay the same than be turned into a tougher, slower, uglier Ishtar.

It's been previously stated that CCP wants to keep the T1 ships more "open" as far as roles are concerned, and leave the specialization to T2 ships. With that in mind, does it make sense to forcibly push a useful and versatile ship into the role of pure combat utility/sniping? If you want to snipe with sentries, Ishtars already do it better -- all this change is doing is making it a weaker ship in small encounters with the ability to hit some frigates with heavy drones. Who cares? That just means the ship takes less skill to fly. And I don't mean skill points; it would turn into, "apply tackle. Drop ogres. Sit there". That's already the role of the Hyperion, so I don't see a need to fill it again.

BOTTOM LINE: Leave the Domi completely untouched, unless you want to give it some more HP to bring it in line with the others.

monkfish2345
Comply Or Die
Pandemic Horde
#742 - 2013-04-09 14:55:02 UTC
Pelea Ming wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
Seems you have been answersign only this thread. Are you guys covering the other threads equaly?


I've been watching the other threads as well, there just doesn't seem to be as much to comment on in the others. I'll go do a lap through them now to make sure I haven't missed anything big.

(Yes, at this point I'm abit angry and that is going to be shown in my choice of words and phraseology)
Of course, your keeping an eye on the other threads, and the amarr one is what, so blase you can't be bothered to post any responses to it? Despite that several of us have now specifically directed questions and such directly to you, asking for more elaboration on one thing or another, or even just what you might think about what we have to say?



as much as i'm sure he'd love to just sit here and debate the merits of changes and suggestions all day i'm fairly sure his job is slightly more involved that just trawling the forums all day.

Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#743 - 2013-04-09 14:55:57 UTC
Why do people keep mentioning battleship sniping like it was actually something you can do in this game

.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#744 - 2013-04-09 14:56:20 UTC
Suicide Smith wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Red Teufel wrote:
hyp is so bad ccp. drop the active rep for a falloff bonus or something.

Yeah, turn the Hyperion into a minmatar ship, cool idea...

Well it's a blaster boat.. so give it optimal range.. Not as good as the Rokh, but every little bit helps with Blasters.

Oh yeah, make it worse than the Rokh !

So many great ideas around there !

To me, gallente always have been pure firepower with high utility. Pure firepower mean blasters. High utility mean armor tank with fair amount of mid slots.

Unfortunately, people don't like this idea and prefer Amarr or Caldari ships. The problem with gallente ships is that they are not straightforward compared to amarr or caldari ships. With amarr/caldari ship, you know what your ship can do, it's clear, and that translate directly into eft stats. With gallente ships, that's not the case. Gallente ships share a lot more with minmatar ships than with amarr and caldari ones. Yet, the problem is less apparent with minmatar ships, because of arties in one hand, which make huge fleet afficionados happy, and speed/cap warfare/shield preference on the other hand which make small gang people happy.

Gallente are left with a weapon system shared with caldari (they are pretty fine with drones though, and the mild acceptance of the Dominix show it), and to top it off, the weapon system don't distinguish a lot from amarr weapon system. Hence, whatever you do, people will try to compare them to amarr or caldari ships, and because they understand amarr and caldari doctrine better, they will compare them in these doctrines point of view : static huge fleet fights. But this is a dead end. Gallente ships will forever be worse than caldari and amarr ship at being amarr or caldari ships.

And the last problem then arise : lots of people don't believe in battleship at small scale, hence completely reprove armor rep bonus for this ship. And for those people left, there is the competition with minmatar ships (and of course with amarr/caldari ships which can be used in small scale situation).

Hence, the competition is high, and the niche left are small. And IMO, the proposed changes were fairly good, but maybe too drastic to be accepted. The margin for modification is not that large : you need 7 or 8 highs for weapons, you need 6 or 7 lows for armor tank, and you need 4 or 5 mids for enough utility -- but considering the number of 4 mid slots BS, I think 5 is preferable. You also need those two hull to be different, one filling an attack role, and the other one a combat role (but still without turing it into a caldari/amarr ship).

That is the whole picture.
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#745 - 2013-04-09 14:56:28 UTC
monkfish2345 wrote:
Pelea Ming wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
Seems you have been answersign only this thread. Are you guys covering the other threads equaly?


I've been watching the other threads as well, there just doesn't seem to be as much to comment on in the others. I'll go do a lap through them now to make sure I haven't missed anything big.

(Yes, at this point I'm abit angry and that is going to be shown in my choice of words and phraseology)
Of course, your keeping an eye on the other threads, and the amarr one is what, so blase you can't be bothered to post any responses to it? Despite that several of us have now specifically directed questions and such directly to you, asking for more elaboration on one thing or another, or even just what you might think about what we have to say?



as much as i'm sure he'd love to just sit here and debate the merits of changes and suggestions all day i'm fairly sure his job is slightly more involved that just trawling the forums all day.


Ahh, yes, yet he had the time yesterday to post approx 3 times to both the Cald and Minnie threads, and approx 15 times to the Gallente one, yet has shown no attention to the amarr thread?
Rukhsana Uxor
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#746 - 2013-04-09 14:57:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Rukhsana Uxor
BayneNothos wrote:

This. They're pretty close to good, just a few minor tweaks and the 3 Gallente BS's should be pretty sweet.

Good for what? Fleet fights? Atm gallent have no fleet BS. In massive pvp sentry domi bad, because of smarts and bombs. If slowcat have extrimely sets of sentry domi have only 3.
And all gallent problem in their weapon. They NEED speed OR optimal\falloff to deal damage. Gallent's BS havnt both of this attributes. Problem not in slots (but 6 low for mega pretty odd).

CCP need to decide what BS will fleet ship and just give falloff or optimal bonus (optimal is better because caldari have their rail-platform with falloff) to mega or hyper instead of tracking bonus on mega or rep bonus on hyper. Mega need tracking bonus in small-scale pvp where u need tracking to get down crus-size. But in fleet pvp? For what tracking if im shooting other BS. About hyper... Well armor rep bonus totaly bad in fleet pvp and we all know why.

There is 3-rd option. Make drones be useful in fleet pvp (drones need some countermeasure for hard aoe attack). But its another thread.
Burseg Sardaukar
Free State Project
#747 - 2013-04-09 14:58:07 UTC
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
Burseg Sardaukar wrote:
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
Askulf Joringer wrote:
As for your comment about only seeing a Domi once fit with guns since 2006, you are either lying or again going full ******.

Please start linking me fits people use, outside of gank setups, that effectively utilize the large gun bonus on the Dominix Roll
The new drone bonus is not only better for PVE+PVP, but you aren't losing the turret hardpoints. So you can have your cake and eat it too.


When flying a Battleship for the last 5 years or so, I have exclusively used a blaster Dominix setup, to great success. On small occasions I rock a neut Domi, but 9/10 it's blaster fit.

It's usually rocking:

Electron Blaster Cannon II x 5
Solace RR x1 (spidertank w/mah boys)

Microwarp, web, disruptor, cap booster, and a sebo/eccm/damp depending on its utilization

4x 1600 plates, 2x eanm, 1x dc

3x trimarks


So... you lost 100 turret dps for an additional 20k ehp on your setup, and better drone damage application.
Why is this a bad thing again?


Because that extra turret DPS gives it the unique flair that would make a player possibly pick it over the Armageddon.

If CCP is doing this tiericide project for the reasons they claim (making every ship a viable choice) they will fail with the Dominix.

As I've been saying, the bonus change is a problem, but not as much as the Armageddon being the new top dog drone boat. It's like being presented with a choice between Myrm and Proph, but at least there the Myrm has more bandwidth...

Can't wait to dual box my Dust toon and EVE toon on the same machine!
Rukhsana Uxor
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#748 - 2013-04-09 15:00:22 UTC
doublepost.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#749 - 2013-04-09 15:02:05 UTC
Burseg Sardaukar wrote:
So... you lost 100 turret dps for an additional 20k ehp on your setup, and better drone damage application.
Why is this a bad thing again?


Because that extra turret DPS gives it the unique flair that would make a player possibly pick it over the Armageddon.

If CCP is doing this tiericide project for the reasons they claim (making every ship a viable choice) they will fail with the Dominix.

As I've been saying, the bonus change is a problem, but not as much as the Armageddon being the new top dog drone boat. It's like being presented with a choice between Myrm and Proph, but at least there the Myrm has more bandwidth...[/quote]
The ******* mid slot !! The Dominix still have one more fuckin' mid slot ! As does the Myrm over the Prophecy BTW... But the thing with the Prophecy is more related to the insane-and-probably-OP tank more than anything else.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#750 - 2013-04-09 15:05:34 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
After sleeping on it:
1. Hey how about giving the Mega it's 8th turret slot so that it can be the fleet ship we all want?
2. CCP is just screwed with the active repping Hyperion. So, do what you want with it. Give the 8th turret slot to the Mega, and keep this ship in its tiny little niche of "I active rep until I get nueted out or blobbed" so that legion boosting, drug addicts can have fun while playing station games.
3. Nerf the proposed Armageddon so it doesn't completely overlap the Dominix in 95% of realistic pvp scenarios. Otherwise it's fine.
Edit: I take it back. Buff the Dominix power grid to be on par with the proposed Armageddon. That way we'll be able to fit a great tank and great guns in the high slots and conceptually the Dominix will be able to out dps the Armageddon.
Marxzo Andoun
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#751 - 2013-04-09 15:05:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Marxzo Andoun
Vivien Sureflight wrote:
I really dislike what you're proposing for the Dominix. Its strength is in its versatility, and part of that versatility comes from being able to use blasters for more than just the laughs. As is, the Dominix occupies some of the highest potential DPS in the game, while also maintaining the ability to be fit in a variety of ways. I would much rather it stay the same than be turned into a tougher, slower, uglier Ishtar.



Something people need to be clear on from CCP Rise's post earlier in this thread:

"It won't be capable of the highest damage numbers of any battleship now, but it can still fit blasters across the top and run mag stabs along with drone damage amps and heavy drones."

This is a clearcut nerf to Domi's dps. I'd be ok with a nerf provided the proposed alternative was appealing. People who are saying this is a boost to the Domi did not read this thread fully.

I don't understand why people find it exciting that Domi will have the tracking to zap smaller ships now. It was always fine at hitting ships it's own size and could deploy smaller drones (at a dps loss) to chase around really annoying smaller ships.

Do people really get excited about killboards that show a BS taking out a frig?

I also don't understand why people would want to use a bigger, tankier ship solely as a sniper when tier 3 BCs will fill this role just as well but with more mobility.

I may be missing something here so I am open to hearing more.
Tennessee Jack
Doomheim
#752 - 2013-04-09 15:08:42 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Burseg Sardaukar wrote:
So... you lost 100 turret dps for an additional 20k ehp on your setup, and better drone damage application.
Why is this a bad thing again?


Because that extra turret DPS gives it the unique flair that would make a player possibly pick it over the Armageddon.

If CCP is doing this tiericide project for the reasons they claim (making every ship a viable choice) they will fail with the Dominix.

As I've been saying, the bonus change is a problem, but not as much as the Armageddon being the new top dog drone boat. It's like being presented with a choice between Myrm and Proph, but at least there the Myrm has more bandwidth...

The ******* mid slot !! The Dominix still have one more fuckin' mid slot ! As does the Myrm over the Prophecy BTW... But the thing with the Prophecy is more related to the insane-and-probably-OP tank more than anything else.[/quote]

Overhaul the megathron and the Hyperion. They need to make it viable and possible for the Hyperion to be a blaster boat. The mega... Only god knows....
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#753 - 2013-04-09 15:09:52 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

I saw some Hyperion work with only one cap booster. What should I believe ? What I saw, or what narrow-minded children here complain about ?

As you said, it's not that simple, but the biggest problem, looking at all the complaints, is that people only look at their tiny niche with a very narrow point of view, blinkers and absolutely zero openmindness about the possibilities these changes open. Reactions to the Dominix and the Megathron say quite a lot about this in fact.

Lookinng at the changes, Hyperion and Megathron kind of swap their original roles, but people don't care : Hyperion does not exists to them because of "useless" armor rep bonus, and their beloved Megathron supposedly died, whereas none of these assesrtion hold any bit of truth, and if you actually read the comments, yould see it.


Getting a little defense there eh? Try running a Dual rep Hyperion with a single cap booster bro, it's not stable. You want a dual rep setup to work with a single injector then the cap consumption of Large reppers is going to have to be reduced.

There is plenty of "openmindness" in this thread however many of these charges are simply terrible. The changes to the megathron are far less sever than the changes to the Hyperion btw. Failure to understand that is a simple admittance of self imposed ignorance, I'd suggest stopping that asap.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#754 - 2013-04-09 15:15:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
Askulf Joringer wrote:
Getting a little defense there eh? Try running a Dual rep Hyperion with a single cap booster bro, it's not stable. You want a dual rep setup to work with a single injector then the cap consumption of Large reppers is going to have to be reduced.

There is plenty of "openmindness" in this thread however many of these charges are simply terrible. The changes to the megathron are far less sever than the changes to the Hyperion btw. Failure to understand that is a simple admittance of self imposed ignorance, I'd suggest stopping that asap.

Oh dear ! The holy cap stability !

But how many time will it take to your ennemies to bring back up ? Because whatever the time you can run your repper, your lifespan is limited to the time cavalry arrive, and 5 minutes is a lot of time already for this to happen.

Not talking about triple rep setup though, these are indeed screwed, unless you drop the web.
Rukhsana Uxor
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#755 - 2013-04-09 15:16:58 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
After sleeping on it:
1. Hey how about giving the Mega it's 8th turret slot so that it can be the fleet ship we all want?[
2. CCP is just screwed with the active repping Hyperion. So, do what you want with it. Give the 8th turret slot to the Mega, and keep this ship in its tiny little niche of "I active rep until I get nueted out or blobbed" so that legion boosting, drug addicts can have fun while playing station games.

Its not a solution. Nobody care about how many dps u have if u cant deal it. How u will be able to damage somthing what that range?
BayneNothos
United Electro-Magnetic Federation
Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
#756 - 2013-04-09 15:17:41 UTC
Askulf Joringer wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

I saw some Hyperion work with only one cap booster. What should I believe ? What I saw, or what narrow-minded children here complain about ?

As you said, it's not that simple, but the biggest problem, looking at all the complaints, is that people only look at their tiny niche with a very narrow point of view, blinkers and absolutely zero openmindness about the possibilities these changes open. Reactions to the Dominix and the Megathron say quite a lot about this in fact.

Lookinng at the changes, Hyperion and Megathron kind of swap their original roles, but people don't care : Hyperion does not exists to them because of "useless" armor rep bonus, and their beloved Megathron supposedly died, whereas none of these assesrtion hold any bit of truth, and if you actually read the comments, yould see it.


Getting a little defense there eh? Try running a Dual rep Hyperion with a single cap booster bro, it's not stable. You want a dual rep setup to work with a single injector then the cap consumption of Large reppers is going to have to be reduced.

There is plenty of "openmindness" in this thread however many of these charges are simply terrible. The changes to the megathron are far less sever than the changes to the Hyperion btw. Failure to understand that is a simple admittance of self imposed ignorance, I'd suggest stopping that asap.


Single Heavy Cap Booster 2 is saying 4mins for me before heat etc. Seems pretty standard amount of cap to me. And that assuming you need to run both reppers full time...
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#757 - 2013-04-09 15:18:59 UTC
Rukhsana Uxor wrote:
Its not a solution. Nobody care about how many dps u have if u cant deal it. How u will be able to damage somthing what that range?
Please, look at minmatar, caldari or amarr line up if you want godlike damage projection.
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#758 - 2013-04-09 15:19:05 UTC
People asking for 7 turret hyperions and 8 turret megathrons.... Lol

Round pegs in square holes indeed.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Rukhsana Uxor
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#759 - 2013-04-09 15:27:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Rukhsana Uxor
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Rukhsana Uxor wrote:
Its not a solution. Nobody care about how many dps u have if u cant deal it. How u will be able to damage somthing what that range?
Please, look at minmatar, caldari or amarr line up if you want godlike damage projection.

And ill ask again. What fleet format could form gallent's BS (useful format)? Could you answer? :)
Its not a balance that gallent's BS is for small\solo scale pvp only.
Lina Theist
Rosendal Research and Development
#760 - 2013-04-09 15:28:25 UTC
Remove two turrets from the dominix and give it 20% damage bonus to drones. It's still pretty much the same dominix as it stands now.