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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Gallente

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Ashaton
Veiled Industries.
#461 - 2013-04-09 01:26:42 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:


Please think in the RACES before the quite silly and without purpose artificial roles of attack and combat.


This! Like I said. If CCP is just going to abandon the idea that races have specific identities and tactics then you might as well make the Megathron an armor tanked, long range missile boat at this point.. cause you know why the hell not?!
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#462 - 2013-04-09 01:27:13 UTC
Akirei Scytale wrote:
I suppose the percentage of gallente ships in my hangar will go from 10% to 0% now.



Same feeling about what's happening to Gallente BS lineup, and specially my Megas.
Think I'm gonna have to reprocess those and build golden lady toys, no more awkward builds: it's armor, fits armor mods, has a TANK and actually DPS is quite good.

Guess you guys will be changing Matar BS fleets for Amarr ones?

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#463 - 2013-04-09 01:34:48 UTC
Mariner6 wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Mariner6 wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Maximus Andendare wrote:
Dominix is losing 1/2 of its dps.

False, it loses 25% and that is it, the choice to not fit turrets is on you.


Its more than that due to heat. And even if its not, 25% is pretty big considering what you have left are slow and destructible.

Heat is balanced within the module and not around the ships, and nor are the ships balanced around using heat as it is a last ditch thing and not to be use for the full combat operation.



Heat is not a last ditch thing. It is the single most powerful addition to the fight and should always be used as much as you can all the time. And overheating bonused guns is a big deal because it can often be the difference between winning and losing. Particularly when you drones have been smart bombed or blapped. Yes you can still overheat your unbonused guns but it is not going to push you over that edge particularly against the extra bit of enemy logi. It is a big deal and one of the reasons why the Vexor is such an awesome boat. It simply would not be the same without its bonus guns blasting away, heated. There is simply no equivalent for pure drone damage. NONE. Now if you could overheat your drones....well that would change my tune.

So when you have lost your drones is the perfect time to over heat huh? That sounds like you are loosing and need a wild card to try to pull out a win, a last ditch effort to make it or break it.

And BTW
With regards to the Dominix fit presented above
Old Dominix turrets with out heat 586 DPS
New Dominix turrets with out heat 469 DPS

Old Dominix turrets with heat 674 DPS
New Dominix turrets with heat 539 DPS

That breaks down to a 25% reduction (539*1.25=673.75) (647/1.25=539.2)

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#464 - 2013-04-09 01:35:25 UTC
Maximus Andendare wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Maximus Andendare wrote:
Dominix is losing 1/2 of its dps.

False, it loses 25% and that is it, the choice to not fit turrets is on you.
I'm not really sure what Dominix you fly, but a fairly typically fit Dominix, just playing with EFT, gives me 655 dps from Ions (with Void) or 587 dps with CNAM and 554 from Sentries or 584 from Heavies. In either case, 655/587 > 584, which--magically--amounts to HALF.

In case you're wondering:

Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L

100MN Afterburner II
Cap Recharger II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
Warp Disruptor II

Damage Control II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Large Anti-Explosive Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I

Dps (Ogre IIs) with CNAM: 1171 and Void: 1239.

- - -

And if you're going to ask: the damage numbers with 2x DDAs: 1234, 2x MFS: 1258, 1 MFS 1 DDA: 1239[/i]. So if anything, the Domi does MORE damage with its blasters than it does with the drones--FAR more than the 25% number you mentioned and that's not even considering overheated or using Neutrons.

tl;dr The point: the Domi is losing [i]far more than 25% of its damage by losing its hybrid bonus, and its not being compensated for it.



Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II

Those are built into the hull now - don't need to fit them at all - its an almost redundant module as far as the domi is concerned.

Also the combination of hull/armor/shield hps being raised (see original notes) should raise your ehp sufficiently to drop 1 plate, and add an extra DDA II.
Mariner6
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#465 - 2013-04-09 01:42:56 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
[quote=Mariner6][quote=Omnathious Deninard][quote=Mariner6][quote=Omnathious Deninard]
That breaks down to a 25% reduction (539*1.25=673.75) (647/1.25=539.2)


Yep, your right. I stand corrected.

I'd still have to go with the Geddon I think. I mean, that fit seems pretty weak, try ABing into the target to apply dps with no scram or web? Can't really see using that set up though I know that's not your point, and your are correct. And normally when using guns and the kind of tank you have there you use electrons which are further limited by range/fitting issues.
Ashaton
Veiled Industries.
#466 - 2013-04-09 01:43:21 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:


And BTW
With regards to the Dominix fit presented above
Old Dominix turrets with out heat 586 DPS
New Dominix turrets with out heat 469 DPS

Old Dominix turrets with heat 674 DPS
New Dominix turrets with heat 539 DPS

That breaks down to a 25% reduction (539*1.25=673.75) (647/1.25=539.2)


Whoa 25% dps nerf - that's pretty aggressive. Not sure why CCP considers the Dominix so overpowered.
Tuxedo Catfish
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#467 - 2013-04-09 01:44:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Tuxedo Catfish
Rysis Vyvorant wrote:
Tuxedo Catfish wrote:
Rysis Vyvorant wrote:

I want you to think about something. What boat is there left for Gallente for PVE? With this change to the Domi not only is it full of meh for PvP but it is completely out classed by the Gedden for PVE. There is zero reason to fly any Gallente boat in PVE.


Actually, the drone tracking and optimal bonus is great for sentry-based anomaly ratting and one of the only good things about the proposed Dominix change is that there might be a reason to fly one instead of an Ishtar now.


I disagree. In a few days I will be hitting out past 120km with drones. I already hit to 110km and have very good damage application along with decent gun dps. I just feel that the new Domi has a lot of wasted slots now. If there were high or mids that added DPS to the drones then fine, but there is nothing. I really have no reason to fly the Domi.


If you're hitting out to 120km then I very much doubt you're using Gardes, and thus are nowhere near "very good damage application."

To clarify my point: a drone tracking bonus means an increase in real-world DPS. The optimal range bonus is just gravy and means that you can use whatever number of Omnidirectional Tracking Links you want (compromising between range/tracking and tank) instead of effecitvely requiring two of them to get your Garde IIs' optimal out past the rats' preferred orbit.

My opinion is mostly rooted in Guristas ratting where drone boats were already excellent, but if anything I expect this will also make using Gardes viable against longer-range rats where it simply wasn't before.
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#468 - 2013-04-09 01:46:32 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
And BTW
With regards to the Dominix fit presented above
Old Dominix turrets with out heat 586 DPS
New Dominix turrets with out heat 469 DPS

Old Dominix turrets with heat 674 DPS
New Dominix turrets with heat 539 DPS

That breaks down to a 25% reduction (539*1.25=673.75) (647/1.25=539.2)
Yeah, sorry had a derp moment there. Obviously the loss is 25% (loss of the 25% hybrid damage bonus) with the same fittings post-patch. heh :)

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La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#469 - 2013-04-09 01:46:51 UTC
fukier wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:


Dominix:

With the Dominix we've abandoned the split weapon bonus (hybrids and drones) and moved it to a fully dedicated drone ship by adding a drone optimal and tracking bonus. We hope that this new bonus will provide a very strong Gallente fleet option in the Dominix, via sentry drones. It will of course also be stronger at short range using heavy drones. As a combat battleship, its received increased hitpoints across the board, increased mass (it got its mass lowered during the hybrid buff), increased cap pool, and increased sig.

We believe this is a very exciting direction for the Dominix, and hope you will too!

I also want to mention here that while the drone system overall needs looking at, we here on the balance team have some short term ideas for helping the usability of sentry drones – no timeframe on them as of yet, but its something we have in mind.



Slot layout: 6H, 5M, 7L; 6 turrets , 0 launchers
Fittings: 9000 PWG, 600 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7200(+1731) / 8000(+1789) / 8500(+1859)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6000(+1000) / 1087s / 5.51
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 109 / .1254 / 100250000(+3150000) / 16.88s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 375
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km / 90 / 7
Sensor strength: 22 Magnetometric Sensor Strength
Signature radius: 465(+45)


Those bonuses are a little lackluster, how about combining the two and adding a control range bonus like the Ishtar?


what somethinglike this?

Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+10% Drone Damage, Drone hitpoints, Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed
+5% to drone activation range and sentry damage per level


I like that but I'm not sure everyone will buy that the double damage bonus for sentry drones is "fair." To handle those objections it should be a flat KM bonus because the only sort of mods we have for increasing drone range are DLAs and a % based bonus won't do much. Pretty much structure it so at level 5 with a DLA or two you'll be able to cover sniping range.

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Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#470 - 2013-04-09 01:47:00 UTC
Mariner6 wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

That breaks down to a 25% reduction (539*1.25=673.75) (647/1.25=539.2)


Yep, your right. I stand corrected.

I'd still have to go with the Geddon I think. I mean, that fit seems pretty weak, try ABing into the target to apply dps with no scram or web? Can't really see using that set up though I know that's not your point, and your are correct. And normally when using guns and the kind of tank you have there you use electrons which are further limited by range/fitting issues.

don't get me wrong in the drone ship vs drone ship the geddon wins, this is the same problem the algos had with the dagroon

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
are34
daddys little fslur
boo hoo fslur i don't care
#471 - 2013-04-09 01:48:14 UTC
-1

not happy with these changes, really like the megathron and hyperion where they were at, taking away a lowslot on the mega seems like a big blow, however with the damage bonus if you can live with 1 mag stab and get similer dps then it becomes usefull with that extra mid slot.

the Hyperion was already quite good where it was, if you want to fix active armor tanking simply introduce an armor version of crystal implants, for serious, the AAR wasn't really needed imo, also the 5th mid on the hype is a big aprt of what makes it a viable option, beign able to fit a scram+ web instead of just scram dual cap booster and prop mod

domi changes make sense, but i probably wouldnt use the new one for a very long time if ever...
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#472 - 2013-04-09 01:50:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Alx Warlord
Is it asking too much that you guys take 1 high slot from dominix and trow it in the low? or in the Mid?

5/5/8?

5/6/7?

Dominix don't have much more utility for hi-slots as it had before. now that it lost the neut-boat role and lost the gun bonuses.

I think tha this would be enough to make the change positive for dominix.

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S0NFANNA
Cause For Concern
#473 - 2013-04-09 01:55:08 UTC
STOP nerfing battleship drone bays. If a navy vexor can launch 5 heavies a battleship should be able to as well. With these proposed changes there are almost no t1 hulls that can field a full set of heavies.

Battleships with a bay/bandwidth of less than at least 125/125 should be a minority not the majority!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BayneNothos
United Electro-Magnetic Federation
Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
#474 - 2013-04-09 02:01:28 UTC
I'm way late to this party but as I put some of damage down on that total damage done by Hyperions in the last little while I think I should throw my thoughts in.

My current fit is:
[Hyperion, Hyperion fit]

Damage Control II
Large Armor Repairer II
Large Armor Repairer II
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Reactive Armor Hardener
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Large Micro Jump Drive
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 800
Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 800

Electron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Ion Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Ion Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Ion Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Ion Blaster Cannon II, Void L

Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Large Nanobot Accelerator I

Now out here in the land of the great crazies known as W-Space, I find it a good substitution when I don't want to risk a T3 or need to do something risky solo. It deals out 800dps on Void and reps 800 before heat or Pill. It works alright and I'ma fan of it.
With the new changes it looks like I'l be dropping the web for another IN EANM, which will most certainly amp up that tank, but I really worry that unless it's my size or bigger, I won't be able to take on anything. There's no tracking bonus so it's already hard to hit small fast movers even with a web.

Since it'll only really be able to hunt big stuff, I say embrace that. Make it the battleship hunter. Someone else mentioned making it the attack battleship instead of the combat one. That's a great idea, kick up it's speed so it can run down the other battleships, latch on via scram and beat them into a pulp.
Being able to run a full rack of Neutrons or even split Neutron / Ion would help so a grid bump would be great. That or an increase in the damage bonus. I'd be willing to go down to 75m3 drone bay for that. Running heavies feels weird, the Hyperion should be handling things personally, not delegating the role to a pack of drones.

I'm a game developer myself and when in doubt, always go back to the lore for inspiration.
Recognizing the necessity for a blaster platform to round out their high-end arsenal, the Federation Navy brought in top-level talent to work on the Hyperion. The result: one of the most lethal and versatile gunboats ever to take to the dark skies.
That's the description. The Hyperion will never be versatile, that's the Domi, always has been (Love those changes fyi) but it can be lethal. You want a fleet ship, go grab the Mega or Domi, you want a boat that can chase down and deliver a savage beating on one specific ship, make it the Hyperion.
Blaster Platform, Lethal Gunboat. It's been written
XjimbobX
Free Mining Alliance
#475 - 2013-04-09 02:01:54 UTC
Honestly in my opinion (I'm no expert) take away the active tank bonus of the hypo and the new drone bonus on the dom. Now you replace them with ANY other bonus in the game, and I mean any (Insert a very small amount of sarcasm). People would probably be happier lol. Having an active tank bonus kind of pigeon holes you into one fit. Also, having double bonuses probably scares people into thinking they have limited options in fitting a ship as well. I know I personally have never cared for the active tank bonus. That is just my 2 cents. Also put the mega back plz and Thanks.
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#476 - 2013-04-09 02:02:37 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Mariner6 wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

That breaks down to a 25% reduction (539*1.25=673.75) (647/1.25=539.2)


Yep, your right. I stand corrected.

I'd still have to go with the Geddon I think. I mean, that fit seems pretty weak, try ABing into the target to apply dps with no scram or web? Can't really see using that set up though I know that's not your point, and your are correct. And normally when using guns and the kind of tank you have there you use electrons which are further limited by range/fitting issues.

don't get me wrong in the drone ship vs drone ship the geddon wins, this is the same problem the algos had with the dagroon
Just give Domi +1 drone controlled per level and remove +10% damage/level and replace with +10% hp and tracking (or optimal)/level. This would give Domi a net +2.5 drones worth of damage and keep it as unique to the Geddon as the Geddon is to the Domi with its neut range bonus.

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Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#477 - 2013-04-09 02:05:19 UTC
I really don't get it with these changes.

One day you guys change Cane because "omg too many neuts kill neuts" and say "we want less neut-cap warfare- tràlàlà".

The day after you throw at our face an Amarr Drone boat, better than Gallente one, that WILL be better at neuting stuff than Bhaalgorn (atm and as it stands), then on top you change the +5% dmg on Mega for +5% ROF which indeed on paper means a bit plus dps but, welp no, not if you need to use lower dmg ammo because you want to shoot more than 5 rounds.

Gallente was already very fragile vs neuts but with these changes you just don't undock at the sight of a golden dildo 2 regions around, because who will be idiot enough to not have at least one dedicated cap neut ship on his BS gang/small fleet (larger fleets it's even worst, capitals will now die really really fast if you keep those changes)?

Ho yeah, you can always undock a shield Mega in shield fleet for lols/snowflakes and a mocking link on GD, but that's all.

So is this all about Gallente? -you guys really hate this race at this point?

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Noslen Nosilla
Federal Logistics Initiative Conglomerate
United Interests
#478 - 2013-04-09 02:11:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Noslen Nosilla
CCP Rise wrote:
[quote]

First the tank - I showed you the armor tank that people are most likely to use, 2 plate, 2eanm, 1 dcu - this is the standard mega armor tank and its still completely viable. Now, you have the same tank, similar damage, but your ship goes faster and you have an extra mid. Seems like a fair trade.




so great I have the slots for a tank but no slots left for mag stabs? armour reps? active hardeners??? WTF?

Don''t forget the mission runners who can't have fracking logi following them everywhere.

Oh and the loss of Bandwidth means the ability to launch a full flight of heavy drones is gone..

First you killed the Tristan...next?

Be polite.

Be professional.

But have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#479 - 2013-04-09 02:15:27 UTC
Akirei Scytale wrote:
It is when the ship's biggest flaw on live is its lack of respectable tank.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the complaint then. The solution for the mega you responded to basically built the missing magstab into the bonus to make up for the relocated low slot, so unless you were fitting a 7 low slot tank how is the ship really missing out in that case?
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#480 - 2013-04-09 02:17:02 UTC
Why in gods name did you remove the hyperions 5th mid?

"Well this ship is barely viable with 5 mids so lets take one away."

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