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Farmatar: Or why fw is totally broken

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X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#301 - 2013-04-08 22:03:06 UTC
Cearain wrote:
....
Just look at this thread and start counting how much support your proposal has and compare it to any number of other suggestions.
ALUCARD 1208
Digital Ghosts
Sedition.
#302 - 2013-04-08 22:14:43 UTC  |  Edited by: ALUCARD 1208
Cearain wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:

All I ask is that we have just one quality pvp mechanic.

Look into FW plexes lately? Great quality pvp mechanic. In fact, you yourself use them all the time to get fights.

Great debate. Thanks everybody for participating. We're done here! Let's move on to another topic.

Would you like to restate your request?



Thats like saying ccp developed top astroid belts as a pvp mechanic.

Edit: sorry XG but threads like this will continue to pop up as long as fw sov is a carebear race. CCP might as well fix it.



threads like this? its you who keeps sh!tting them up and only you making them pop up.... also were are all these people that upvoted you on your proposal i dont see any of them defending it here or in the other 20 threads youve sh!tted up

BEBOPS ODE TO PERUNGA
ALUCARD 1208
Digital Ghosts
Sedition.
#303 - 2013-04-08 22:16:36 UTC
Cearain wrote:


Look at my sig for the proposal with 13 and then in that you will see the link with the proposal before the forums changed. There will you see the 12 upvotes from the people posting.




that was 3 years ago things was different why dont you get that?

BEBOPS ODE TO PERUNGA
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#304 - 2013-04-08 22:17:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Cearain wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:
The rest of your post is not really intelligible, but thats ok. I don't care how popular you think the proposal is.
I'll make it easy for you. Your notifications proposal has received less support than almost every other proposal out there.


Then it should be easy to provide links to 5 other specific assembly hall fw proposals in the last 3 years that had/have over 25 upvotes.

Until you post them, I think I will believe my own eyes, rather than your posts.

BTW: I am only asking for 5 so you can use your fingers to help you count.



X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:
....
Just look at this thread and start counting how much support your proposal has and compare it to any number of other suggestions.



There seems to be 2 patterns here.

1) I make a claim. You ask for links to back it up. I give the links.

2) You make a claim. I ask for links to back it up. You just keep talking with no links to back up what you claim.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#305 - 2013-04-08 22:26:50 UTC
Cearain wrote:
...
The pattern is clear in this thread. Timer rollbacks have near universal support. Proposed notifications are nearly universally rejected.
Gorski Car
#306 - 2013-04-08 22:55:35 UTC
raven666wings wrote:
http://frabz.com/3lq3


The hero FW needs now. Keep farming farmer pigs.

Collect this post
2manno Asp
Death By Design
#307 - 2013-04-08 23:02:19 UTC  |  Edited by: 2manno Asp
Cearain wrote:

There seems to be 2 patterns here.

1) I make a claim. You ask for links to back it up. I give the links.

2) You make a claim. I ask for links to back it up. You just keep talking with no links to back up what you claim.


well, at least he's got alts to like his unsupported claims. sort of like ogb for forums.

nerf alt likes!

PS - i'd like to see a notification system of sorts.
Ak'athra J'ador
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#308 - 2013-04-08 23:07:57 UTC
I'm in FW space, but not in FW and I think a notification system makes sense. In fact, it may make sense elsewhere in EVE as part of the solution for that SOV system overhaul...
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#309 - 2013-04-08 23:10:45 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
2manno Asp wrote:
well, at least he's got alts to like his unsupported claims. sort of like ogb for forums.
nerf alt likes!
PS - i'd like to see a notification system of sorts.

That's one. Who's next? Big smile

Seriously, I (quickly, could have missed somebody) went through this thread and didn't find anybody else in support of notifications. There was universal support for timer rollbacks and many more posters agreeing with other suggestions than the notifications.

Edit: Two now.
Taoist Dragon
Okata Syndicate
#310 - 2013-04-09 00:35:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Taoist Dragon
We already have a notification system in FW.

The FW page tells you if a system is contected.
Also the outpost themselves shout for help thats why they appear on your overview for easy warpage.....

Timer roll backs just make sense.


oh bugger! I just realised I agreed with a frog Shocked I need to go scrub those nasty thoughts out of my head now!!

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#311 - 2013-04-09 02:14:26 UTC
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:



cearain wrote:
That would change if we had notifications. The best pvpers in eve would be the most sought after for each militia.


hahaha and the roads are paved with gold and houses are made of candy..... stop dreaming mate




Again we think different. I think that fw already has many of the best small gang pvpers in eve.

Unfortunately, their pvp abilities don't really contribute to the sov war effort under these mechanics. A 2 day alt can, and usually will, capture more plexes than the best pvpers.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
#312 - 2013-04-09 08:43:41 UTC
Cearain wrote:
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:



cearain wrote:
That would change if we had notifications. The best pvpers in eve would be the most sought after for each militia.


hahaha and the roads are paved with gold and houses are made of candy..... stop dreaming mate




Again we think different. I think that fw already has many of the best small gang pvpers in eve.

Unfortunately, their pvp abilities don't really contribute to the sov war effort under these mechanics. A 2 day alt can, and usually will, capture more plexes than the best pvpers.



Cearain - notifications won't change that.

Lets say we had your system:
I get a notification saying 'X Gal is in a T1 derp Atron in the Novice Outpost in Enaluri'

2 min later a [PLEX] blob hits that plex. (Pretending we blob for the example) Big smile

PvP is now all blob warfare.

So what does X Gal need to do next time ??? He has no choice but to form up and bring the blob as well.

and guess what....

After we drive him out or if lucky kill him, we all leave for the next 'notification'

The PvPers still have not and will not run the plex.

WHY?? Cause we now have a system feeding us intel and we can just pew pew 23/7 and never need to sit in a plex running it down waiting for a fight.

Your system will provide the opposite effect of what you intend.


https://soundcloud.com/ibanezlaney
ALUCARD 1208
Digital Ghosts
Sedition.
#313 - 2013-04-09 11:23:57 UTC  |  Edited by: ALUCARD 1208
The huge blob is not the problem i see, this is were im at with the notification idea :-

Say for instance im running a plex solo, in the surrounding systems theres 3-4 pilots all solo and in no communication with each other with the notification system set to say 4 jumps, now all of these pilots get the same notification and rush there for a nice fight (in the perfect counter ship) and unintentionally theyve all turned up in system together and turned into a mini blob, Now i know in my t1 frig/dessie/cruiser i cant fight all 4 at once maybe 1-2 and id try and fight but not 4 therefore id fly away and safe up.

So Cearain ur proposal that makes it a pvp mechanic could actually be flawedLol Forcing someone out is not PvP or having a fun time its just boring for all and even more time wasted than if theyd stumbled across me on there own

BEBOPS ODE TO PERUNGA
ALUCARD 1208
Digital Ghosts
Sedition.
#314 - 2013-04-09 11:31:17 UTC  |  Edited by: ALUCARD 1208
Cearain wrote:
A 2 day alt can, and usually will, capture more plexes than the best pvpers.



Maybe just maybe the pvper isnt bothered about the LP from a plex and just uses it for fights and then just moves on after hes had his fight, he would be active in pvp but not have high VP..

BEBOPS ODE TO PERUNGA
Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#315 - 2013-04-09 12:41:22 UTC
IbanezLaney wrote:

Lets say we had your system:
I get a notification saying 'X Gal is in a T1 derp Atron in the Novice Outpost in Enaluri'

2 min later a [PLEX] blob hits that plex. (Pretending we blob for the example) Big smile

PvP is now all blob warfare.

So what does X Gal need to do next time ??? He has no choice but to form up and bring the blob as well.


Not just the other militias, you have to remember any tom dique or harry can roll an alt and plop it into FW, which means any random active gang in low sec (or even from anywhere) can just look on their alt and be lead directly to the FW gang - this would be a terrible TERRIBLE situation - esp for bunker busting!

Definitely a chance to break FW even more, need to be careful with this people!

Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.
kraiklyn Asatru
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#316 - 2013-04-09 12:59:25 UTC
In case of Muad, that would mean everyone in lowsec would come running, hoping to catch something shiny ;)
Andre Vauban
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#317 - 2013-04-09 13:34:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Andre Vauban
IbanezLaney wrote:
Cearain wrote:
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:



cearain wrote:
That would change if we had notifications. The best pvpers in eve would be the most sought after for each militia.


hahaha and the roads are paved with gold and houses are made of candy..... stop dreaming mate




Again we think different. I think that fw already has many of the best small gang pvpers in eve.

Unfortunately, their pvp abilities don't really contribute to the sov war effort under these mechanics. A 2 day alt can, and usually will, capture more plexes than the best pvpers.



Cearain - notifications won't change that.

Lets say we had your system:
I get a notification saying 'X Gal is in a T1 derp Atron in the Novice Outpost in Enaluri'

2 min later a [PLEX] blob hits that plex. (Pretending we blob for the example) Big smile

PvP is now all blob warfare.

So what does X Gal need to do next time ??? He has no choice but to form up and bring the blob as well.

and guess what....

After we drive him out or if lucky kill him, we all leave for the next 'notification'

The PvPers still have not and will not run the plex.

WHY?? Cause we now have a system feeding us intel and we can just pew pew 23/7 and never need to sit in a plex running it down waiting for a fight.

Your system will provide the opposite effect of what you intend.




Everybody is missing the point. The current sov system is decided by PVPers. This is a fact. If I want to take a plex and the other sides wants to defend it, there will be a fight. The problem is people don't care about defending 95% of the systems. This PVP only happens in home systems where the incentive to defend exists because the defenders want to continue to dock there.

If I learn about a plexer in a system I don't care about, why should I care? I know he's probably a cloaky/stabbed plexer, so there won't be a fight. Why bother? Even if I do chase him out of the plex and "win", I now have to spend up to 2x more time running the button and then will most likely get crap LP. The problem is there is no point to defend meaningless systems.

This FW sov system is actually almost the perfect sov system. It is so much better than 0.0. If nobody defends the system for more than 12 hours a day, it will easily fall. This is perfect, we should not be asking for this to change. What we should be asking for is a reason to defend systems that we don't care if we can dock in or not. Oh yeah, we also need to make sure we don't break the never ending concept of FW such that we create a natural pendulum that swings back and forth such that the winning side cannot ever truly win. I don't see how we can both ensure the winner never truly wins and provide an incentive for defending every system, as these two ideas seem to be mutually exclusive.

.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#318 - 2013-04-09 13:59:51 UTC
IbanezLaney wrote:
Cearain wrote:
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:



cearain wrote:
That would change if we had notifications. The best pvpers in eve would be the most sought after for each militia.


hahaha and the roads are paved with gold and houses are made of candy..... stop dreaming mate




Again we think different. I think that fw already has many of the best small gang pvpers in eve.

Unfortunately, their pvp abilities don't really contribute to the sov war effort under these mechanics. A 2 day alt can, and usually will, capture more plexes than the best pvpers.



Cearain - notifications won't change that.

Lets say we had your system:
I get a notification saying 'X Gal is in a T1 derp Atron in the Novice Outpost in Enaluri'

2 min later a [PLEX] blob hits that plex. (Pretending we blob for the example) Big smile

PvP is now all blob warfare.

So what does X Gal need to do next time ??? He has no choice but to form up and bring the blob as well.


Ok I would just ask that you at least acknowledge that you have a directly contradictory position from many others that object to the proposal.

You are claiming too many people will respond to the notifications. While many others are claiming no one will respond.

But lets look at your scenario. XG is in an atron. You said he was in a novice plex and a blob comes. Is the entire blob in t1 frigates so they can enter the plex? If not XG may get a fight right there in his atron.

Now lets say that they are all in frigates that can enter the plex. Well then XG can ship up to something like a dessie or cruiser and run a larger plex. (I know this may be tough with the bad station lockout mechanic, but even with them he should have a non-fw ssytem within a few jumps that he can keep ships in) He will then get a fight.

The other thing he can do is communicate with others and instead of blobbing up spread out. Is the entire group following him? If so then others in his miltia can run plexes right next door. If they don't spread out and keep several pilots on one pilot they will lose the plexing war. But now when they lose it will be because they do not have good enough pvpers to match up even odds with the enemy. In other words the best pvpers win.


IbanezLaney wrote:
[
and guess what....

After we drive him out or if lucky kill him, we all leave for the next 'notification'

The PvPers still have not and will not run the plex.

WHY?? Cause we now have a system feeding us intel and we can just pew pew 23/7 and never need to sit in a plex running it down waiting for a fight.



Actually that intel is a reason why pvpers will stay in the plex and run them. They know that the enemy will be notified of their whereabouts and will likely respond. All the militias have people who like to pvp. As much as people like to think their own miltia is the only one with pvpers that view is simply not true.

The best sov militias will be the ones that can best spread out and use use their pilots. And have the best pvpers. If every pilot in one militia requires a blob to come and dislodge him from a plex then either the other militia will need to have several times the number of active pilots or they will lose.

At first there will be somewhat of an exodus from militia as the plex farmers leave. But over time I think the number of pvpers will keep growing. In fact this will be such a great pvp venue the number of people playing eve as a whole will grow. Eve will no longer be the boring game where it takes forever to get a bit of pvp action.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#319 - 2013-04-09 14:17:36 UTC
Andre Vauban wrote:



Everybody is missing the point. The current sov system is decided by PVPers. This is a fact. If I want to take a plex and the other sides wants to defend it, there will be a fight. The problem is people don't care about defending 95% of the systems.


We agree on the bolded part. But we disagree as to why they don't care. I think they don't care because the game is no fun and horrible. If the game was fun and involved pvp then people woudl care. But if you go in these systems and plex there are very few enemies that will even know you are there let alone fight you. Since they don't know you are there you are looking at a boring night of orbitting buttons. So my view is to make the game a good game and fun and people will care.

You on the other hand seem to focus on consequences. You take the approach that well if we give or take something then they will do it even if it is boring. Station lockouts is a good example. They are why corps are requiring people to waste their eve time orbitting a button everyday. If a game is so boring people don't want to play it, then forcing people to play the boring game will not improve it.

After inferno the isk consequences where huge. But many pvpers still didn't want to get their alts all orbiting buttons. Why? Because eve is just a game and people have better things to do with their time than play a boring game like that.

Make it a game where you sign on and get tons of exciting pvp action, instead of rabbit alt plexing. And then people will care about winning.




Andre Vauban wrote:

This PVP only happens in home systems where the incentive to defend exists because the defenders want to continue to dock there.

If I learn about a plexer in a system I don't care about, why should I care? I know he's probably a cloaky/stabbed plexer, so there won't be a fight. Why bother? Even if I do chase him out of the plex and "win", I now have to spend up to 2x more time running the button and then will most likely get crap LP. The problem is there is no point to defend meaningless systems.

This FW sov system is actually almost the perfect sov system. It is so much better than 0.0. If nobody defends the system for more than 12 hours a day, it will easily fall. This is perfect, we should not be asking for this to change. What we should be asking for is a reason to defend systems that we don't care if we can dock in or not. Oh yeah, we also need to make sure we don't break the never ending concept of FW such that we create a natural pendulum that swings back and forth such that the winning side cannot ever truly win. I don't see how we can both ensure the winner never truly wins and provide an incentive for defending every system, as these two ideas seem to be mutually exclusive.



No its not perfect. In fact fw sov is so bad most people don't care about it. Its allot like null sec sov where people get in blobs in a select few systems and the rest of zone is just farmed. FW can offer an alternative to blob null sec, where people are spread out fighting throughout the warzone. But ccp has to decide to implement the changes.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#320 - 2013-04-09 14:34:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Muad 'dib
Funny how all the benefits of FW seem to be enjoyed by those not in it, or those that farm with a low skilled alt and all the bad things and downsides are avoided while the serious FW players that want to play and enjoy a balanced feature have to deal with them!

addicted to failure?

JOIN THE ARMY FACTION WAR

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