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carebears are scaring off noobs with boredom.

First post
Author
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#341 - 2013-04-08 17:28:57 UTC
Esteban Dragonovic wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:



But the Low Sec Pirates always blast away the newbies and warn them that they are 'not ready' for Low sec yet. And they indeed are not.



Dying as a newbie is fairly painless, they can just have him quickly respawn at a nearby station. As for the whole "not ready" part, the tutorial is suppost teach you and make you ready. Going through an experance of running and fighting through lowsec as well as a live crash course in combat tactics is the best way of doing that.



The newbs in this new 'program' taking them through Low Sec will all be victims without fail.

Don't get me wrong, it's a great idea in theory, but it would just be a camped-out gank fest in the systems involved in the 'newbs doing the tutorial', and they will learn nothing

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882

Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#342 - 2013-04-08 17:30:11 UTC
Esteban Dragonovic wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:



But the Low Sec Pirates always blast away the newbies and warn them that they are 'not ready' for Low sec yet. And they indeed are not.



Dying as a newbie is fairly painless, they can just have him quickly respawn at a nearby station. As for the whole "not ready" part, the tutorial is suppost teach you and make you ready. Going through an experance of running and fighting through lowsec as well as a live crash course in combat tactics is the best way of doing that.


Painless as in "It was quite painless for me to lose my crappy pinto car, because I have no income to replace it" kind of painless. Sure newbie ships are cheap, but when you start out 1 million isk is a lot of money. If 3 day old player lost his venture, he wouldn't have much to get bank on his feet with other than say begging.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#343 - 2013-04-08 17:34:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
Ah now you've moved the goal posts again.
Not really, no. You're probably only now understanding where they've stood all along.
Progress! \o/

Quote:
You were comparing a group (ignoramus) with a tactic (no X until Y), and telling me, not to confuse a group with a tactic.
No. I was comparing one group (ignoramuses) with another group (elitist) and telling you not to confuse the two.

Now I've said that some of them may have the same roots — it's not hard to imagine that the roots of elitism lies in people having a poor understanding of what makes it possible to compete, and that their initial (mis)understanding of the profession made them not want to jump in until they thought they were ready… so they assume that this is a systematic thing rather than a personal choice and preference: it's not the game that dictates that they must have PE V to make a profit, but their own view of what counts as a reasonable profit. That means that there might be some overlap and that there is a root cause to the two, but they're not the same thing and the effects they have on their environment differs too.

Quote:
You CANNOT deduce whether someone saying no X until Y is either ignorant or a griefer, and it would be impossible to ban them.
It's often quite easy. Just ask them why they're saying it.
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
SONS of BANE
#344 - 2013-04-08 17:41:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Seven Koskanaiken
Tippia wrote:
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
Ah now you've moved the goal posts again.
Not really, no. You're probably only now understanding where they've stood all along.
Progress! \o/

Quote:
You were comparing a group (ignoramus) with a tactic (no X until Y), and telling me, not to confuse a group with a tactic.
No. I was comparing one group (ignoramuses) with another group (elitist) and telling you not to confuse the two.

Now I've said that some of them may have the same roots — it's not hard to imagine that the roots of elitism lies in people having a poor understanding of what makes it possible to compete, and that their initial (mis)understanding of the profession made them not want to jump in until they thought they were ready… so they assume that this is a systematic thing rather than a personal choice and preference: it's not the game that dictates that they must have PE V to make a profit, but their own view of what counts as a reasonable profit. That means that there might be some overlap and that there is a root cause to the two, but they're not the same thing and the effects they have on their environment differs too.

Quote:
You CANNOT deduce whether someone saying no X until Y is either ignorant or a griefer, and it would be impossible to ban them.
It's often quite easy. Just ask them why they're saying it.


And CCP now need a team to go around asking every single person giving out advice the reason for it.Shocked

Fucks sake now I remember why I don't come this this ******* forum.Shocked
Esteban Dragonovic
Saidusairos Nebula Concern
#345 - 2013-04-08 17:41:44 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Esteban Dragonovic wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:



But the Low Sec Pirates always blast away the newbies and warn them that they are 'not ready' for Low sec yet. And they indeed are not.



Dying as a newbie is fairly painless, they can just have him quickly respawn at a nearby station. As for the whole "not ready" part, the tutorial is suppost teach you and make you ready. Going through an experance of running and fighting through lowsec as well as a live crash course in combat tactics is the best way of doing that.


Painless as in "It was quite painless for me to lose my crappy pinto car, because I have no income to replace it" kind of painless. Sure newbie ships are cheap, but when you start out 1 million isk is a lot of money. If 3 day old player lost his venture, he wouldn't have much to get bank on his feet with other than say begging.


I'm talking about the tutorial, not mining in a venture after 3 days of investing isk. Dying in a free newb ship is a painless experiance and even getting podded isn't really damaging at that point either. The idea is to teach a newbie how to survive and thrive in a hostile enviornment, an invaluble skill that new players only start learning generally months into the game in its current state. Besides, this helps him to not lose that venture that hes invested 3 days of time in.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#346 - 2013-04-08 17:55:27 UTC
Esteban Dragonovic wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Esteban Dragonovic wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:



But the Low Sec Pirates always blast away the newbies and warn them that they are 'not ready' for Low sec yet. And they indeed are not.



Dying as a newbie is fairly painless, they can just have him quickly respawn at a nearby station. As for the whole "not ready" part, the tutorial is suppost teach you and make you ready. Going through an experance of running and fighting through lowsec as well as a live crash course in combat tactics is the best way of doing that.


Painless as in "It was quite painless for me to lose my crappy pinto car, because I have no income to replace it" kind of painless. Sure newbie ships are cheap, but when you start out 1 million isk is a lot of money. If 3 day old player lost his venture, he wouldn't have much to get bank on his feet with other than say begging.


I'm talking about the tutorial, not mining in a venture after 3 days of investing isk. Dying in a free newb ship is a painless experiance and even getting podded isn't really damaging at that point either. The idea is to teach a newbie how to survive and thrive in a hostile enviornment, an invaluble skill that new players only start learning generally months into the game in its current state. Besides, this helps him to not lose that venture that hes invested 3 days of time in.



To any sane-minded business person, this is an excellent idea for chasing away customers.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882

MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#347 - 2013-04-08 18:05:57 UTC  |  Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Tippia wrote:
The same goes for you. I never said any of that is grief play — I said that those are items that carbear corps habitually fail to teach their members properly. And no, again, it's not a matter of opinion but of facts and mechanics, and about “truths” that have been proven false over and over again throughout the history of the game, e.g. that low is permacamped, or that there is no place for the little guy or the newbie in null.

As for what you can and cannot do, again, I'm talking about mechanics. Things like outlaws being allowed in highsec; such as suicide ganking; such as salvaging; such as probing mission runners.

I have no idea where you get the idea that I'm dictating anything. If anything, it's what these corps do (see the example provided earlier in the thread). That last point is about design decisions such as highsec being a PvP zone; that it's your task to chase outlaws; that it's up to players to protect themselves, not the game; that you don't inherently own anything beyond what you can actually keep to yourself. All of these are points that carebear players have a tendency to completely have misunderstood, and I've seen many cases where these misapprehensions are being taught though corp chats.

Well, it seems you are attempting to dictate what corp members should and should not say to other corp members. You've gone as far as advocating for a ban because you consider their teachings "grief play". You obviously have a huge problem with this. But instead of explaining your problem with facts you leap around with your own opinions and claim them to be facts.

Quote:
Yes. See my newbie skill plan, which shows that you can get a workable PvP skill set in a matter of weeks, not years. See the myth about the permacamped/insta-death lowsec, which is as solid as a wire-mesh sieve and just as full of pirates as the sieve is of water.

Ok, this is an example of you leaping around. You state that:

"The things I'm talking about are not a matter of experience, and they're speaking from nothing but elitism or (at best) assumptions based on others telling them the same some time in the past."

YOU state that:

1) They're speaking from nothing but elitism, or
2) At best, they are assumptions based on what they've heard elsewhere.

I asked if you can back this claim up, as in these corps are spreading misinformation due to "elitism" or because they've heard this elsewhere. I even gave you an example of a corp member advising another corp member on the dangers of lo sec because of his own experiences there (you listed "anything to do with lo sec"). Which of your two "factual" statements does this fall under? Instead, you've directed me to a newbie skill plan as proof of the above.

Quote:
Bluffing is not the same thing as lying about how the game works, no. One is a legitimate gameplay move; the other is cheating. The ganker is doing the former; the unwitting carebear does the latter and the newbie is far worse off for it. Neither the intent nor the outcome is the same.

I didn't say the pirate was bluffing. You did. In my example above I explicitly said both are lying (as in neither is telling the truth). It feels like you're attempting to minimize the pirate's actions by deliberately changing the word from lying to simply "bluffing". And the pirate's outcome may have the same effect, as in it may lead his victim to quit the game altogether.

Incidentally, I am of the opinion that a player lying to another player in order to score a cheap gank or laugh will lead this player to quit sooner than if it were a corp spreading misinformation to him. I would love to see numbers from CCP showing reasons why people quit.

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.

Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#348 - 2013-04-08 18:07:24 UTC
I just returned to pondering the thread title, and the full impact of it's ridiculousness finally hit me across the face.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882

Esteban Dragonovic
Saidusairos Nebula Concern
#349 - 2013-04-08 19:03:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Esteban Dragonovic
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Esteban Dragonovic wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Esteban Dragonovic wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:



But the Low Sec Pirates always blast away the newbies and warn them that they are 'not ready' for Low sec yet. And they indeed are not.



Dying as a newbie is fairly painless, they can just have him quickly respawn at a nearby station. As for the whole "not ready" part, the tutorial is suppost teach you and make you ready. Going through an experance of running and fighting through lowsec as well as a live crash course in combat tactics is the best way of doing that.


Painless as in "It was quite painless for me to lose my crappy pinto car, because I have no income to replace it" kind of painless. Sure newbie ships are cheap, but when you start out 1 million isk is a lot of money. If 3 day old player lost his venture, he wouldn't have much to get bank on his feet with other than say begging.


I'm talking about the tutorial, not mining in a venture after 3 days of investing isk. Dying in a free newb ship is a painless experiance and even getting podded isn't really damaging at that point either. The idea is to teach a newbie how to survive and thrive in a hostile enviornment, an invaluble skill that new players only start learning generally months into the game in its current state. Besides, this helps him to not lose that venture that hes invested 3 days of time in.



To any sane-minded business person, this is an excellent idea for chasing away customers.


So teaching your customer how make good and optimal use of your product is a terrible idea? Good to know your the go-to guy on business advice.
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#350 - 2013-04-08 19:03:52 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
I just returned to pondering the thread title, and the full impact of it's ridiculousness finally hit me across the face.

The title may not be entirely accurate and true to the point of the post, although i do agree with it.

Carebears teach noobs eve is boring and so they quit.


Maybe ill change it to bore then.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.

Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#351 - 2013-04-08 19:05:42 UTC
Commander Ted wrote:

Carebears teach noobs eve is boring and so they quit.




I obviously didn't.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882

Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#352 - 2013-04-08 19:06:50 UTC
Esteban Dragonovic wrote:

So teaching your customer how make good and optimal use of your product is a terrible idea? Good to know your the go-to guy on business advice.



As EVE is a Sandbox, I don't think even CCP can define 'optimal use'.

Such arrogance........

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882

Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#353 - 2013-04-08 19:07:42 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:


I obviously didn't.

maybe your a boring person.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.

Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#354 - 2013-04-08 19:10:22 UTC
Commander Ted wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:


I obviously didn't.

maybe your a boring person.



This is exactly why nobody takes threads such as yours seriously.

Credibility......out the window.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882

motgus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#355 - 2013-04-08 19:19:39 UTC
Original post could not have been more true. This was my experience with the game 5 years ago. I quit, because everyone said mining was "OMG THE ONLY WAY TO MAKE MONEY YOU HAVE TO DO IT". Biggest pile of **** I ever heard.

Talk to pvpers, they will tell you the same story. People told them to do carebear bullshit which drives people from the game, mining, mission running etc. Quite possibly some of the worst ways to make money, both in isk per hour and just sheer boardem.

Obviously there are those people out there who just live to sit around all day and play the worst aspects of the game. Eve is all about freedom, power to them. Newbies should just be aware of the full range of options out there and not always get pulled into the boring pit of high sec.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#356 - 2013-04-08 19:22:33 UTC
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Well, it seems you are attempting to dictate what corp members should and should not say to other corp members. You've gone as far as advocating for a ban because you consider their teachings "grief play".
Nope.

Quote:
I asked if you can back this claim up, as in these corps are spreading misinformation due to "elitism" or because they've heard this elsewhere. I even gave you an example of a corp member advising another corp member on the dangers of lo sec because of his own experiences there (you listed "anything to do with lo sec"). Which of your two "factual" statements does this fall under? Instead, you've directed me to a newbie skill plan as proof of the above.
I directed you to the newbie skill plan as proof that it's not a matter of experience, but of making incorrect assumptions about what you need to do to play the game.

Quote:
I didn't say the pirate was bluffing. You did. In my example above I explicitly said both are lying (as in neither is telling the truth).
…and I transposed that example to the clear-cut example of bluffing vs. cheating in poker. It's that distinction between in-game and meta-game that many people have problems understanding. Lying comes in many forms, and some of them are simply part of the game.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#357 - 2013-04-08 19:24:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Krixtal Icefluxor
motgus wrote:

Talk to pvpers, they will tell you the same story. People told them to do carebear bullshit which drives people from the game, mining, mission running etc. Quite possibly some of the worst ways to make money, both in isk per hour and just sheer boardem.



It failed to drive me away. Obviously.

And tell the 'worst ISK/HR' info to my 6 Bill ISK a month Wallet.


Edit: And yes, I play in Low sec too. Just way to many generalizations made in these trash threads.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882

motgus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#358 - 2013-04-08 19:30:59 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
motgus wrote:

Talk to pvpers, they will tell you the same story. People told them to do carebear bullshit which drives people from the game, mining, mission running etc. Quite possibly some of the worst ways to make money, both in isk per hour and just sheer boardem.



It failed to drive me away. Obviously.

And tell the 'worst ISK/HR' info to my 6 Bill ISK a month Wallet.


Edit: And yes, I play in Low sec too. Just way to many generalizations made in these trash threads.



Like I said, some people love to do it. Never did i say EVERYONE. I am just saying it drives a significant number of people away because its just such a boring game style.
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#359 - 2013-04-08 19:35:40 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Commander Ted wrote:

Carebears teach noobs eve is boring and so they quit.




I obviously didn't.

according to your many, many posts on the subject not only did you quit forever you quit forever many times
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#360 - 2013-04-08 19:36:42 UTC
motgus wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
motgus wrote:

Talk to pvpers, they will tell you the same story. People told them to do carebear bullshit which drives people from the game, mining, mission running etc. Quite possibly some of the worst ways to make money, both in isk per hour and just sheer boardem.



It failed to drive me away. Obviously.

And tell the 'worst ISK/HR' info to my 6 Bill ISK a month Wallet.


Edit: And yes, I play in Low sec too. Just way to many generalizations made in these trash threads.



Like I said, some people love to do it. Never did i say EVERYONE. I am just saying it drives a significant number of people away because its just such a boring game style.



Then it just was not their game.

With the highest number of subscribers in EVE's history, is there a problem or something ??

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882