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New blog: Further EVE Launcher Changes: Coming To a Test Server Near You

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CCP Atropos
C C P
C C P Alliance
#21 - 2013-04-08 17:35:33 UTC
Dalilus wrote:
Why not add singularity to the launcher menu?

This is something we want to do. When it gets done is a matter of prioritization and we want to get the current changes out and working before doing further things like test server installation/management and multi-account performance
CCP Atropos
C C P
C C P Alliance
#22 - 2013-04-08 17:38:33 UTC
Toramt wrote:
Please beware making incompatible tweaks to HTTP 1.1 least an intermediate transparent proxy cause breakage.

We wont be changing the HTTP protocol if that's what you're referring to.
CCP Atropos
C C P
C C P Alliance
#23 - 2013-04-08 17:48:52 UTC
l0rd carlos wrote:
I want torrent, is it still an option for the future?


Daedra Blue wrote:
We in EVE love Options, so if you can keep doing what you want but also provide the Option to use P2P please do so.
I'm pretty sure they can run in parallel.

So feel free to provide both ways to download patches/content, trough your HTTP and P2P.


Kasuko wrote:
DO NOT APPROVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Go back to BT!

Screw all the stupid people with their weird Salem Witch Hunt issues!


Chribba wrote:
Prepare to be launched?

Seriously, how about just doing bt+web peers, works wonders even behind firewalls (most of the time anyway)

/c

Whilst we're not using peer to peer in this release, we may choose to deploy it down the line. It may make our lives easier to say "screw those guys, lets just use peer to peer!" but we have to live with the reality that not every one can make use of it, and subsequently we must find some way to accommodate them; they're just as much customers as everyone else.
Clara Valentine
Doomheim
#24 - 2013-04-08 19:30:42 UTC
CCP Atropos wrote:

Whilst we're not using peer to peer in this release, we may choose to deploy it down the line. It may make our lives easier to say "screw those guys, lets just use peer to peer!" but we have to live with the reality that not every one can make use of it, and subsequently we must find some way to accommodate them; they're just as much customers as everyone else.


Why can't we use both? BitTorrent in the options would be great.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#25 - 2013-04-09 00:02:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
For what it is worth, I have been providing a torrent for the Windows client.

Most of the downloaders from me seem to be from China or Australia.

CCP really should offer the client via torrent as an alternative. My bandwidth is limited.
Karbowiak
Sacred Templars
Fraternity.
#26 - 2013-04-09 02:06:44 UTC
CCP Atropos wrote:
l0rd carlos wrote:
I want torrent, is it still an option for the future?


Daedra Blue wrote:
We in EVE love Options, so if you can keep doing what you want but also provide the Option to use P2P please do so.
I'm pretty sure they can run in parallel.

So feel free to provide both ways to download patches/content, trough your HTTP and P2P.


Kasuko wrote:
DO NOT APPROVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Go back to BT!

Screw all the stupid people with their weird Salem Witch Hunt issues!


Chribba wrote:
Prepare to be launched?

Seriously, how about just doing bt+web peers, works wonders even behind firewalls (most of the time anyway)

/c

Whilst we're not using peer to peer in this release, we may choose to deploy it down the line. It may make our lives easier to say "screw those guys, lets just use peer to peer!" but we have to live with the reality that not every one can make use of it, and subsequently we must find some way to accommodate them; they're just as much customers as everyone else.


I swear, sometimes the "devs" at CCP doesn't deserve to call themselves developers Roll

Atropos, you do realize that almost every bittorrent client + library out there can use a regular http server as a peer, aslong as you add it in the torrent as a default peer.

If you need help, i'm sure you can get Chribba to help you out.
Terje Teinturier
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2013-04-09 06:16:35 UTC
Clara Valentine wrote:
CCP Atropos wrote:

Whilst we're not using peer to peer in this release, we may choose to deploy it down the line. It may make our lives easier to say "screw those guys, lets just use peer to peer!" but we have to live with the reality that not every one can make use of it, and subsequently we must find some way to accommodate them; they're just as much customers as everyone else.


Why can't we use both? BitTorrent in the options would be great.

+1 Giving HTTP as an option should be enough.
Shish Tukay
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#28 - 2013-04-09 07:43:19 UTC
Quote:
I swear, sometimes the "devs" at CCP doesn't deserve to call themselves developers Roll


Unfortunately there's much more to professional software development than software development :P

(Open sourcing the launcher would also free it from political / social / business constraints, as third parties could add the controversial features to their own builds and not get CCP involved ^_~ (Still not actually expecting that to happen, but I can dream :P))
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2013-04-09 09:19:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Why not just make the test server accessible through the tranquility launcher?

i'm sick of asking for a feature like a combat arena only for people to turn around and say "that's what the test server is for"... No it isn't but whatever.

Edit: i see my comment has already been addressed.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Athena Maldoran
Doomheim
#30 - 2013-04-09 09:37:39 UTC
what is the significant diffrence between the two? Bittorrent and 1.1..
Karbowiak
Sacred Templars
Fraternity.
#31 - 2013-04-09 11:41:22 UTC
Athena Maldoran wrote:
what is the significant diffrence between the two? Bittorrent and 1.1..


BitTorrent and HTTP operate on somewhat the same principle.

HTTP is a single stream of data going from the server to you, some servers allow you to resume a transfer, and also initiate a transfer from a certain point in the file to a certain point - which allows you to open multiple streams.

But it's all coming from the same server.

BitTorrent downloads the file from multiple sources (Peers) in the swarm, where each individual has either the entire file or a part of the file. The more people in the swarm seeding (Who has the full file), the higher the speed available to those who don't have the entire file, is.

Basically you can get part 22 of a file from Person A, and part 1 from Person B, and part 2 to 21 from Person C at different speeds, and the torrent client will still be able to piece together the file in proper order.

What CCP apparently didn't realize, was that BiTorrent can use webpeers (HTTP servers) as peers in the swarm.
Which means you could use a torrent library in the EVE launcher, if you can't use P2P/BitTorrent you simply don't connect to the swarm, but you'd still connect to the one/two/many webpeers in the swarm, and get data from them, just like if it was regular HTTP.
If you suddenly became able to connect to the swarm, it'd automatically figure that out, connect and fine more peers to get data from (and also send data to)

Make sense? or am i rambling?
Shish Tukay
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#32 - 2013-04-09 12:56:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Shish Tukay
Athena Maldoran wrote:
what is the significant diffrence between the two? Bittorrent and 1.1..


TL;DR: Bittorrent is faster and more reliable when it works, but some people's ISPs block it, and some people's routers can't handle it. Most torrent tools can use Bittorrent and HTTP at the same time, so we could have the best of both worlds, but that's still a load more effort than only supporting HTTP. Since HTTP alone solves ~90% of the problems, CCP aren't sure that it's worth putting in 20% more effort for 10% more awesomeness.

Also, looking at the last thread, a fairly large number of people are scared of Bittorrent because it's (wrongly) associated with piracy, which is (wrongly) associated with viruses; and some are outright offended that they be asked to take part in making downloads better for everyone, because win/win scenarios are communism, and we can't let the russians win.

(A random other misconception while I'm here -- bittorrent slowing down near the end isn't a secret evil plan to force people to share; it happens because when you're in the middle of the download, you're downloading 10 chunks of the file from 10 peers, and if one is slow then the other 9 can fill the space; but when you're on the final block, then you're only downloading one block from one peer, and if it's slow you just have to wait)
Qjuwert III
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#33 - 2013-04-09 13:32:16 UTC
Callic Veratar wrote:
I'm a little disappointed that bittorrent is being pulled, but I understand as there are so many groups fighting against it. Hopefully it can still be implemented as a secondary/backup/efficient method that's not enforced or required, but available for anyone who wants it.


I agree.
1) Make bittorrent an optional, non-default option. With the choice whether to help distribute packages P2P whilst downloading.
2) Regularly promote these options through statistic focused Dev Blogs to highlight the advantages in download speed.
3) The internet becomes a better place!
CCP Atropos
C C P
C C P Alliance
#34 - 2013-04-09 13:51:55 UTC
Karbowiak wrote:

What CCP apparently didn't realize, was that BiTorrent can use webpeers (HTTP servers) as peers in the swarm.
Which means you could use a torrent library in the EVE launcher, if you can't use P2P/BitTorrent you simply don't connect to the swarm, but you'd still connect to the one/two/many webpeers in the swarm, and get data from them, just like if it was regular HTTP.
If you suddenly became able to connect to the swarm, it'd automatically figure that out, connect and fine more peers to get data from (and also send data to)


Actually, this is exactly what we're doing. The current EVE Launcher uses an custom implementation of rsync over HTTP, commonly known as zsync. This uses HTTP/1.1 to do range requests on a payload we place on our CDN.

In the new EVE Launcher, we're changing the library to libtorrent, but we are only using the webseed component. We opted to go with just webseeds for several reasons; for example, allowing us to use an almost identical technology (so we understand it) but from a more robust source (not custom in-house code). Once we've got an understanding of the capabilities of the people using the EVE Launcher, as well as their inclination towards using peer-to-peer we can decide to go that route.
l0rd carlos
the king asked me to guard the mountain
#35 - 2013-04-09 14:47:42 UTC
CCP Atropos wrote:


Actually, this is exactly what we're doing. The current EVE Launcher uses an custom implementation of rsync over HTTP, commonly known as zsync. This uses HTTP/1.1 to do range requests on a payload we place on our CDN.

In the new EVE Launcher, we're changing the library to libtorrent, but we are only using the webseed component. We opted to go with just webseeds for several reasons; for example, allowing us to use an almost identical technology (so we understand it) but from a more robust source (not custom in-house code). Once we've got an understanding of the capabilities of the people using the EVE Launcher, as well as their inclination towards using peer-to-peer we can decide to go that route.

Ah, that should have bin in the devblog.
Thanks for sharing.

Youtube Channel about Micro and Small scale PvP with commentary: Fleet Commentary by l0rd carlos
Korgan Nailo
5ER3NITY INC
The Gorram Shiney Alliance
#36 - 2013-04-09 16:43:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Korgan Nailo
I guess I'll be the black sheep here, but I'm kind of disappointed with the changes away from BitTorrent.

Yes, there is a lot of people who wouldn't like to use it, yes there might be firewall issues (mostly for those playing at work... **trollface**), and it goes.

But one of the great things I like about the BitTorrent idea is the ability to hash files and the help to push great patches or things like that.

I've played other games that used the technology, and really it doesn't bother me at all.

Perhaps still implement it as an "option" for those who would like to use it?

But my main concern is the hash. I hoped that with the new launcher, in a way, you could use the protocol to keep the client running smoothly without the need of a repair tool.

Oh well, perhaps another time. =)

Looking forward to the new launcher nonetheless.


--==EDIT==--
CCP Atropos wrote:
Karbowiak wrote:

What CCP apparently didn't realize, was that BiTorrent can use webpeers (HTTP servers) as peers in the swarm.
Which means you could use a torrent library in the EVE launcher, if you can't use P2P/BitTorrent you simply don't connect to the swarm, but you'd still connect to the one/two/many webpeers in the swarm, and get data from them, just like if it was regular HTTP.
If you suddenly became able to connect to the swarm, it'd automatically figure that out, connect and fine more peers to get data from (and also send data to)


Actually, this is exactly what we're doing. The current EVE Launcher uses an custom implementation of rsync over HTTP, commonly known as zsync. This uses HTTP/1.1 to do range requests on a payload we place on our CDN.

In the new EVE Launcher, we're changing the library to libtorrent, but we are only using the webseed component. We opted to go with just webseeds for several reasons; for example, allowing us to use an almost identical technology (so we understand it) but from a more robust source (not custom in-house code). Once we've got an understanding of the capabilities of the people using the EVE Launcher, as well as their inclination towards using peer-to-peer we can decide to go that route.

YES!!! =D

--== EvE Online Quick Reference Sheet: E-Uni Forums Link / EvE Forums Link ==--
Karbowiak
Sacred Templars
Fraternity.
#37 - 2013-04-09 16:55:37 UTC
CCP Atropos wrote:
Karbowiak wrote:

What CCP apparently didn't realize, was that BiTorrent can use webpeers (HTTP servers) as peers in the swarm.
Which means you could use a torrent library in the EVE launcher, if you can't use P2P/BitTorrent you simply don't connect to the swarm, but you'd still connect to the one/two/many webpeers in the swarm, and get data from them, just like if it was regular HTTP.
If you suddenly became able to connect to the swarm, it'd automatically figure that out, connect and fine more peers to get data from (and also send data to)


Actually, this is exactly what we're doing. The current EVE Launcher uses an custom implementation of rsync over HTTP, commonly known as zsync. This uses HTTP/1.1 to do range requests on a payload we place on our CDN.

In the new EVE Launcher, we're changing the library to libtorrent, but we are only using the webseed component. We opted to go with just webseeds for several reasons; for example, allowing us to use an almost identical technology (so we understand it) but from a more robust source (not custom in-house code). Once we've got an understanding of the capabilities of the people using the EVE Launcher, as well as their inclination towards using peer-to-peer we can decide to go that route.


In this case, i take back what i said earlier, and appoligize if i came off as a brash ******** fuckwit. Keep on trucking! Cool
Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
#38 - 2013-04-10 07:13:41 UTC
Karbowiak wrote:
CCP Atropos wrote:
Karbowiak wrote:

What CCP apparently didn't realize, was that BiTorrent can use webpeers (HTTP servers) as peers in the swarm.
Which means you could use a torrent library in the EVE launcher, if you can't use P2P/BitTorrent you simply don't connect to the swarm, but you'd still connect to the one/two/many webpeers in the swarm, and get data from them, just like if it was regular HTTP.
If you suddenly became able to connect to the swarm, it'd automatically figure that out, connect and fine more peers to get data from (and also send data to)


Actually, this is exactly what we're doing. The current EVE Launcher uses an custom implementation of rsync over HTTP, commonly known as zsync. This uses HTTP/1.1 to do range requests on a payload we place on our CDN.

In the new EVE Launcher, we're changing the library to libtorrent, but we are only using the webseed component. We opted to go with just webseeds for several reasons; for example, allowing us to use an almost identical technology (so we understand it) but from a more robust source (not custom in-house code). Once we've got an understanding of the capabilities of the people using the EVE Launcher, as well as their inclination towards using peer-to-peer we can decide to go that route.


In this case, i take back what i said earlier, and appoligize if i came off as a brash ******** fuckwit. Keep on trucking! Cool

This is good news and a good explanation that should have been in the blog to begin with, would have changed the picture from the start.

The implementation I believe will benefit you greatly. You can even take it further to optimization how I handle it on EVE-Files (having used torrent for a long time), my CDN automatically takes the requested file offline as long as there is X number of seeders available on the file, if the number drops below X it automatically takes the file online via the CDN again.

That way it is always ensured that a file will be available, but at the same time optimizing traffic (and costs) for files that need it more rather than shuffle out bandwidth where there isn't a big need.

/c

★★★ Secure 3rd party service ★★★

Visit my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar'

Twitter @ChribbaVeldspar
Kasuko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#39 - 2013-04-16 14:18:35 UTC
CCP Atropos wrote:


Actually, this is exactly what we're doing. The current EVE Launcher uses an custom implementation of rsync over HTTP, commonly known as zsync. This uses HTTP/1.1 to do range requests on a payload we place on our CDN.

In the new EVE Launcher, we're changing the library to libtorrent, but we are only using the webseed component. We opted to go with just webseeds for several reasons; for example, allowing us to use an almost identical technology (so we understand it) but from a more robust source (not custom in-house code). Once we've got an understanding of the capabilities of the people using the EVE Launcher, as well as their inclination towards using peer-to-peer we can decide to go that route.


I am with the others now. This is important information that should have been in the devblog. I take back my earlier comment WITH the requirement be that you are actively thinking (maybe not doing) bittorrent in the future.
Malus Sentio
Subsidy H.R.S.
Xagenic Freymvork
#40 - 2013-05-21 21:55:50 UTC
CCP Atropos wrote:
This is something we want to do. When it gets done is a matter of prioritization and we want to get the current changes out and working before doing further things like test server installation/management and multi-account performance


Whilst pretty, the current launcher should allow an optional number of user/pass entry panels down the lefthand side. It should remember the last account names entered. It should also remember the last character used for each of those accounts and have a checkbox that allows you to skip the character selection screen.

When clicking 'Log In' it should launch n number of clients and log them all in.
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