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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Caldari

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Author
Sinigr Shadowsong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2013-04-08 16:18:24 UTC
The only thing that bothers me with these changes is that Raven will now be weaker missile ship that Typhoon.
Taritura
Perkone
Caldari State
#22 - 2013-04-08 16:18:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Taritura
CCP Do you know, the balancing team, That missiles need time to travel to it's target ???? so weakening the tank of raven is just like taking 2 more volleys from other BS ....
And by the way do you now what is the best tank against caldari???? you only need to move a little bit puf 70% of dps is gone ...
Major Killz
Tr0pa de elite.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#23 - 2013-04-08 16:22:52 UTC
Sh!t is still sh!t other than the Rokh.

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ![/u]

Shahai Shintaro
Caldari Manufacturing and Design
#24 - 2013-04-08 16:39:47 UTC
I'll echo what others have said. It makes no sense to me that the Caldari, the missile race, has less damage application with missiles than the typhoon. The typhoon with an explosion velocity bonus will deal more of its damage to its targets. I'm having a hard time seeing why I would fly a raven over a typhoon.
chuckfinleyrocks
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2013-04-08 16:39:52 UTC
stop pretending and tell us the truth, you want to nerf all ships so that more of them are destroyed and we have to purchase more of them leaving no isk for GTCs. Why even have races any more. Gone are the treaning skills difference between races, now each race is going to have the exact same ships. If your going to screw up the game, just get rid of 3 races. Glad I already purchased Star Citizen. Will be the only space game worth playing soon.
Ivan Tukachev
The 1st Regiment
Brave Collective
#26 - 2013-04-08 16:41:38 UTC
In my opinion the Scorpion is still very much disappointing, and requires a lot of changing and rethinking to be useful once again.

The problems as I see:

1. ECM Strenght: The weak ECM ability of the scorpion is one of the biggest flaws of the ship. And the low bonus amount isn't really helping here. Considering good ECM and level 5 caldari battleship skill the jammers strenght remains terrible. This causes the ship class not to be useful in battles except in very large numbers, where the number of jammers fitted adds up on the chances of successfully jamming limited numbers of targets. (e.g. logistic ships)

2. Weak tank and "bad" locking range: Condisering that the Scorpion is a jammer ship there aren't really good choices tanking the vessel. Should you shield tank it, you are losing precious slots for already weak ecm jammers, not to mention that you will need prop mods too! Going down on this road, if you go for a compromise between some shield and the 4 racial jammers + 1 speed mod, it means that you will hardly be able to lock targets above 100km. While you have a very good optimal on ECM, and also a very healthy falloff you most likely will never be able to put that to good use, because you won't have the spare slots for sensor boosters or signal amplifiers.

In my opinion if the scorp had a much longer locking range, around +50% or +100% more the ship could be used as a truly long range e-war platform. A micro jump drive kiting setup, from long range, could possibly survive and thus do its job better than being right now, being too close to just too many things with its present weak tank. The weak ecm would still be trouble.

3. The ECM burst bonus is mostly useless. It is used quite rarely for one ship class to be devoted to this, as this type of disruption isn't really useful for fighting, and when you have to resort to this tactic to escape you can consider yourself as good as dead.
This stuff is just too circumstantial to be useful. While it may come handy once or twice making a single ship get away, in a fleet combat it hurts team efforts just too much.

In my opinon the ship could benefit here from: a) better overall sensor capabilities b)better tanking possibilities or c) getting some weapon bonuses.

4. Weak weapon systems: As it currently stands the scorpion with its low number of bonusless weapons slots means you can really add any weapon systems to your liking. On the other hand it also means that mounting any weapon systems on the ship makes virtually no difference.
This is a problem. As it is currently the ship doesn't really excel in its disruption role, and without and meaningful capabilities for even self-defense its uselessness factor is just bumped up by one.

Some argue that fitting neutralizers is the way to go, but considering that neuts are quite close range for fleet battles, and you being squishy this doesn't seem to make a good combination, other than being able to flee.

But as I said, creating a ship build entirely focusing on being able to flee when things not work out as intended, is just terrible and wrong on the base concept.
If you want to win battles you will want to use designs which are meant to try to win, and not use designs which are useful for fleeing.
Turelus
Utassi Security
#27 - 2013-04-08 16:57:39 UTC
Rokh - Nothing has changed, will still be used as a sniper platform with mediocre DPS.

Raven - Became more worthless? might as well fly the Typhoon.

Scorp - Only reason it's useful is because it's ECM, it's also turned into an armour tank for this reason.

Caldari ships are way over due for some love in general, the passes of the sub BS have had some loving changes and a few more ships have stepped up to be viable but over all they're still the worst PVP ships in EVE. (Exceptions for a few roles)
They're slow as hell even though they're shield tankers, missiles are worthless outside of PVE... if we didn't have the most broken EWAR in the game and a shield Logistics ship you wouldn't see as many people training Caldari.

As others have said if you read any kind of EVE lore you will see that Caldari are meant to have some of the strongest ships in EVE yet when was the last time you saw the Raven even considered a serious PVP ship?

Turelus CEO Utassi Security

Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#28 - 2013-04-08 17:03:22 UTC
Unforgiven Storm wrote:
Raven, unless you make some drastic changes to the torps or cruises this ship continues to be bad


they need to nerf down rockets and HAMs before they look at buffing them

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Bereza Mia
Trade Federation of EVE
#29 - 2013-04-08 17:07:05 UTC
Shahai Shintaro wrote:
I'll echo what others have said. It makes no sense to me that the Caldari, the missile race, has less damage application with missiles than the typhoon. The typhoon with an explosion velocity bonus will deal more of its damage to its targets. I'm having a hard time seeing why I would fly a raven over a typhoon.


And Typhoon have 100 drones bandwidth, Raven - only 50.
BarryBonez
Viper Sovereign
#30 - 2013-04-08 17:16:58 UTC
Rokh is pretty cool. Haven't gone on one of our fabulous Rokh fleets however due to its 300mil price tag however.

Raven is still just a PvE beginner ship as far as most are concerned.

The scorpion is still the scorpion. Hopefully it will be much less squishy from here on out. This might be too drastic, but perhaps switching some hi slots for lows would allow it to survive a bit longer on the battlefield. I know its dishing out ECM punishment, but I feel that a battleship class ship simply shouldn't melt as fast as it always seems to when it gets shot at by anything decent. More lows would allow a much better armor tank, at least buffer wise, to be fit, which would be more befitting of a battleship. Now a pilot can focus on projecting ECM pain instead of wondering how many mids to dedicate to a wimpy shield tank at the cost of less ECM mods.
BABARR
Lowlife.
Snuffed Out
#31 - 2013-04-08 17:27:21 UTC
Raven is good, a bit late, but good :)
Rokh : once again, like abaddon, why nerf it? if the problem is spider tank, nerf the logi, not the resist of a big ass battleship who are boring to manoeuvred, die 100% of time when trapped, ect, when you can see everywhere uberepictanked tech3 or T2 ship whith speed and small signature.

Scorpion still need love. A little damage bonus could be fun. Like :
- 15% ew strenght and range and failloff per lvl
- 10% hybrid turrets range (whith 6 gun harpoint) OR 5% cruise and torp launcher ROF (whith 5 or 6 launcher hardpoint, short powergrid to be able to fit torp launcher only if you sacrifice low slot and rig slot for powergrid mod)
And remove a med for a lowslot,to have more a BATTLEship whith offensive abilities, and not just an ECM plateform usless cause falcon and rook make the job better and blackbird cheaper.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#32 - 2013-04-08 17:28:32 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

Raven:

Caldari Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+5% bonus to Cruise and Torpedo Launcher rate of fire
+10% bonus to Cruise Missile Torpedo Velocity

Slot layout: 7H(-1), 7M(+1), 5L; 0 turrets , 6 launchers
Fittings: 11000 PWG(+1500), 750(+50) CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6800(-700) / 5800(-841) / 6400(-241)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / recharge per second) : 5500(+187.5) / 1160s / 4.74
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 113(+19) / .12(-.008) / 99300000 / 16.52s (-1.1s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(-25) / 75
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 75km / 85 / 7
Sensor strength: 22 Gravimetric
Signature radius: 420(-50)


The Raven was already hilariously light on EHP, so I'm not so sold on the giant smack to shield HP. The change to sig radius is pretty powerful and may offset the EHP loss, but it was sooooo light on EHP already...

At any rate, I also really appreciated the ability to fit 2 utility highs, but the trade for an extra mid is pretty acceptable. The drone bandwidth nerf is unnoticeable from my perspective. The mobility change seems pretty light for an attack BS, but maybe the nano Raven was better than I ever gave it credit for.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Ager Agemo
Rainbow Ponies Incorporated
#33 - 2013-04-08 17:31:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Ager Agemo
I like that raven, looks much more adequate now for both PVP and PVE, could like a change from missile speed to damage to make it look like a super heavy damage dealer on close quarters.

however with the Rokh I feel sort of uneasy, we have no ship with 8 hybrids and a damage bonus, though the rokh would lose its optimal bonus and get a ROF or damage bonus to its turrets.
Xiaodown
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#34 - 2013-04-08 17:38:59 UTC
BarryBonez wrote:
Rokh is pretty cool. Haven't gone on one of our fabulous Rokh fleets however due to its 300mil price tag however.

Raven is still just a PvE beginner ship as far as most are concerned.

The scorpion is still the scorpion. Hopefully it will be much less squishy from here on out. This might be too drastic, but perhaps switching some hi slots for lows would allow it to survive a bit longer on the battlefield. I know its dishing out ECM punishment, but I feel that a battleship class ship simply shouldn't melt as fast as it always seems to when it gets shot at by anything decent. More lows would allow a much better armor tank, at least buffer wise, to be fit, which would be more befitting of a battleship. Now a pilot can focus on projecting ECM pain instead of wondering how many mids to dedicate to a wimpy shield tank at the cost of less ECM mods.


If it's going to retain its ECM focus, then the 15% strength bonus needs to be more like 30% per level. Seriously, everyone will eventually be training (racial) sensor compensation to at least IV, and leet PVPers will train it to V. Combine this to the several ECM nerfs over the years, and ECM is essentially viable only in smaller gangs - none of which have scorpions as part of their composition, because a rook, or a falcon, or a blackbird is more desirable because it's actually maneuverable.

As it stands now, in order to be viable in an ECM world, you're going to spend 6 mids on jammers, 2 on tank+prop mod, 3 low slots on signal dispersion amps with maybe one on a PDU, and two or three rig slots on Jamming mods.

If you want the scorp to still be desirable in fleet combat, I would say at least 25% ECM jammer strength per level, up the shield recharge rate and cap recharge rate, up the sensor strength and lock range.

That way, you can spend your 5 mids on ECM, sport a MWD, invuln II, and LSE, and then deck the lows out with SPRs and signal amps. The increased cap recharge will mean hopefully you can skip having to have a cap booster, which wastes a mid; likewise the sensor strength and lock range prevent you from having to waste midslots on sensor boosters.

Basically, compensate for the fact that your mids are occupied by buffing the things that need midslots, or at least buff enough that you can use the comparatively "worse" low slot mods and rigs. This can be done by giving ECM enough strength that you don't have to fit a full rack of Signal Dispersion Amps.
Rek Esket
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2013-04-08 17:40:44 UTC
Shahai Shintaro wrote:
I'll echo what others have said. It makes no sense to me that the Caldari, the missile race, has less damage application with missiles than the typhoon. The typhoon with an explosion velocity bonus will deal more of its damage to its targets. I'm having a hard time seeing why I would fly a raven over a typhoon.


Caldari aren't really the 'missile race', they're if anything the 'ranged sniper' race.
Xiaodown
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#36 - 2013-04-08 17:42:15 UTC
Or, alternatively, take a cue from the Geddon changes and the Rattlesnake, and turn the Scorpion into a drone platform...
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#37 - 2013-04-08 17:45:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Warde Guildencrantz
scorpion...
It needs a high switched to a low. Everyone has said this...also, fix its split weapons, give it 5 of one of them...it should be able to fight well if shield fit with less ECM but mount a pretty decent tank with low DPS if armor fit with full ECM. These things would constitute switching a high to a 5th low slot and giving a 5th turret/missile slot.

the raven, if you are going to reduce it's tank, needs even more speed than that. megathron is going 120, so how about making the raven 118? 7 launchers would do it well to draw a difference between the raven and the typhoon as well...



also,

I really don't see the need to reduce resist bonuses...it's like saying "screw you!" to fleet fights expecting them to ever use active tanked ships...

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us

Fredric Wolf
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#38 - 2013-04-08 17:45:58 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:

Raven:

Caldari Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+5% bonus to Cruise and Torpedo Launcher rate of fire
+10% bonus to Cruise Missile Torpedo Velocity

Slot layout: 7H(-1), 7M(+1), 5L; 0 turrets , 6 launchers
Fittings: 11000 PWG(+1500), 750(+50) CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6800(-700) / 5800(-841) / 6400(-241)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / recharge per second) : 5500(+187.5) / 1160s / 4.74
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 113(+19) / .12(-.008) / 99300000 / 16.52s (-1.1s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(-25) / 75
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 75km / 85 / 7
Sensor strength: 22 Gravimetric
Signature radius: 420(-50)


The Raven was already hilariously light on EHP, so I'm not so sold on the giant smack to shield HP. The change to sig radius is pretty powerful and may offset the EHP loss, but it was sooooo light on EHP already...

At any rate, I also really appreciated the ability to fit 2 utility highs, but the trade for an extra mid is pretty acceptable. The drone bandwidth nerf is unnoticeable from my perspective. The mobility change seems pretty light for an attack BS, but maybe the nano Raven was better than I ever gave it credit for.

-Liang


It is really hard to give constuctive feedback on ships where the weapon system changes have not been released yet. The Raven really has not made me want to fly these but maybe after the Large Missile changes it will come out in the end.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#39 - 2013-04-08 17:59:47 UTC
Fredric Wolf wrote:
It is really hard to give constuctive feedback on ships where the weapon system changes have not been released yet. The Raven really has not made me want to fly these but maybe after the Large Missile changes it will come out in the end.


Yeah, I wrote a long post comparing the Raven and Typhoon, then realised that it was worthless since it was based on weapon systems that are known to be changing, so I just deleted it. Lol
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#40 - 2013-04-08 18:03:40 UTC
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
scorpion needs more scan resolution.

It needs a high switched to a low. Everyone has said this...also, fix its split weapons, give it 5 of one of them...it should be able to fight well if shield fit with less ECM but mount a pretty decent tank with low DPS if armor fit with full ECM. These things would constitute switching a high to a 5th low slot and giving a 5th turret/missile slot.

the raven, if you are going to reduce it's tank, needs even more speed than that. megathron is going 120, so how about making the raven 118?



also,

I really don't see the need to reduce resist bonuses...it's like saying "screw you!" to fleet fights expecting them to ever use active tanked ships...


It needs less scan res, not more