These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

sick of plex prices

Author
Red Templar
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#41 - 2011-10-31 13:49:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Red Templar
LacLongQuan wrote:
inflation

Seriously?

inflation is a rise in the general level of prices of goods and services in an economy over a period of time

Do you see a rise for everything in eve? Modules? Services? No? Only for 1 type of trade goods? Then its not inflation.

Ofc inflation exists in eve in some form, but its very slow and marginal. The rise of general prices 5% per year - a lot of real countries would kill for such rates.

But increase in price 100kk in 1 month. its not inflation. Its market manipulation, decrease of supply, growth of demand, market speculation, whatever.

PLEXes do not grow on trees. Players have to buy them and then sell them on market. And i think the amount of players who do that do not grow as rapidly as amount of players who uses plexes.

More and more players use plex for everything. Paying for their acc and multiple alts, for character transfers, for buying tickets to fanfests, whatever else they can be used for.

And how do you want CCP to limit the price of plex? Tell players that they cannot sell their plexes for more than 300kk?
Again - Seriously?
Players who buy plexes from CCP are most legit players in eve. They do not buy isk from some chinese websites. They use the right way to do it. They are 100% not bots. Because hey, bots have enough isk, they are bots after all, they dont need to sell plexes.

And so im glad that plex prices grow. That mean that players can get more isk the right way, legit way, and not buy them from some shadowy bot shop. maybe more will follow their steps because of higher prices and bot shops will find themself out of business.

Hmmm its hard decision. Whom should CCP support... those players who buy plexes for real money and follow the rules. Or those players who wanna play for free and buy plexes for isk. Very hard choice.

[b]For Love. For Peace. For Honor.

For None of the Above.

For Pony![/b]

Red Templar
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#42 - 2011-10-31 13:51:34 UTC
. double post

[b]For Love. For Peace. For Honor.

For None of the Above.

For Pony![/b]

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#43 - 2011-10-31 13:53:59 UTC
Big Bad Mofo wrote:
Twisted Alice wrote:
Levija Saplina wrote:
this is ridiculous.

so i am going to let two of my accounts go unsubed.

do something CCP.




If CCP interfere they're ruining the so called sandbox.


It's just market forces at work, let them work.


I dont understand the sandbox thing here, they are not player made items. All it takes is one person to stop being greedy sell them a bit cheaper and the prices will come down.


I buy the plexes that one non-greedy guy sells and relist them at the market rate. The current prices are my fault Oops

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

De'Veldrin
The Suicide Kings
Dreadbomb.
#44 - 2011-10-31 13:57:33 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
I buy the plexes that one non-greedy guy sells and relist them at the market rate. The current prices are my fault Oops


Hey Mal, can you tick your buy order prices up just a little?

I need some spare cash for the new BCs when they come out.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#45 - 2011-10-31 14:00:52 UTC
Big Bad Mofo wrote:
I dont understand the sandbox thing here, they are not player made items. All it takes is one person to stop being greedy sell them a bit cheaper and the prices will come down.
Yes they are. Without the players creating them, none would exist on the market. Likewise, the price is entirely player-created — hell, your own comment says as much.
Thorn Galen
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#46 - 2011-10-31 14:18:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Thorn Galen
Nyla Skin wrote:
Thorn Galen wrote:

Is it so hard to understand that the players with plenty of ISK are subbing additional accounts, which generate even more ISK, and these players are not paying CCP a dime to play ?


You fail at math. I draw a picture: SOMEBODY pays for their accounts. As long as each account is paid for with money, thats all CCP wants.
Thats the whole point of the plex system. The person who buys plex with money and sells it for isk, is the one who pays for the buyers gametime.


.. I hope I wasnt trolled.


You fail at mathematics and you fail at economics.
The system as it currently stands = diminishing returns.
Even using your own flawed example, "SOMEBODY" grows less and less, pray tell, what then ?
At the moment you are playing but not paying.
You are generating mountains of ISK and using that to pay for your accounts, you open new accounts with ISK you are making ingame (and making even more ISK to buy more PLEX which as you see now, has become more expensive) - You do the maths on that one. The "SOMEBODY" who buy Plex are lessening, hence CCP making it more attractive to the paying "SOMEBODY" to buy more Plex with special offers. The "SOMEBODY" are only willing to pay cash for (x) amount of PLEX they can sell for ISK ingame. The increased price of PLEX ingame is no accident. Open your eyes and mind.

It's all diminishing returns. You do the maths properly, you and others in this thread who blithly say I fail at maths. Clearly you have no foresight as to what is happening in terms of CCP getting hard cash from players.

Your flawed argument is that someone else has already paid for that account. Your omission is the fact that your new, freely-subbed account you bought with ISK is now generating even more ISK. So the wheel turns. People with free and ready real life cash to pay for PLEX to sell ingame are growing less by the day.

Your new, freely-subbed account (because you make so much ISK) is money CCP is never going to see as real, hard cash. There is no "1 for 1" here. My buying a PLEX and selling it ingame does not equal "your account has already been paid for". If that is as far as you can work it, then you truly "fail at math". Very short-term thinking.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#47 - 2011-10-31 14:24:24 UTC
Thorn Galen wrote:
Your new, freely-subbed account (because you make so much ISK) is money CCP is never going to see as real, hard cash.
…except that you will at some point need to start paying for it or it will no longer be subbed, which means CCP does indeed see real, hard cash for that “free” account.
Naran Eto
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#48 - 2011-10-31 14:24:40 UTC
Thorn Galen wrote:
The fact is that ISK should not be able to buy ingame PLEX.



This is the biggest flaw in your whole argument, here let me simplify it for you ...


PLEX ARE MEANT TO BE SOLD FOR ISK SO OTHERS CAN USE THEM TO PAY FOR THE GAME THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE FOR, STOPPING PLEX FROM BEING TURNED INTO GAME TIME DEFEATS THEIR WHOLE PURPOSE.
Sir HappyPants
Caldari Innovations and Research
Vicious Circle.
#49 - 2011-10-31 14:27:55 UTC
The more people use PLEX as subs, the more money CCP makes since PLEX is a bit more per month than the normal monthly fee.

Look at it this way. You purchase a key to access the game servers every month by forking out $15.99. You can buy more keys for $19.99 which you can then sell to people on the game servers for XXX ISK. People who do not want to buy a key with real money use XXX ISK to buy a $19.99 key from you.

Either way CCP gets paid. And with people nuking PLEX for game time, they make more money.

Also, the higher PLEX prices go, the more people will be willing to part with real world cash to sell.

All that said, I sub all my accounts with PLEX. If they go much higher, my accounts will lapse. The more PLEX accounts lapse, the demand for PLEX will fall and thus the prices. It's basic economics.

TL;DR: No matter how you sub to Eve $$ or ISK, CCP still gets paid.
Member of the #TweetFleet   @thisurlnotfound
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#50 - 2011-10-31 14:30:54 UTC
Thorn Galen wrote:
Your flawed argument is that someone else has already paid for that account. Your omission is the fact that your new, freely-subbed account you bought with ISK is now generating even more ISK. So the wheel turns. People with free and ready real life cash to pay for PLEX to sell ingame are growing less by the day.

Your new, freely-subbed account (because you make so much ISK) is money CCP is never going to see as real, hard cash. There is no "1 for 1" here. My buying a PLEX and selling it ingame does not equal "your account has already been paid for". If that is as far as you can work it, then you truly "fail at math". Very short-term thinking.

That PLEX came from real, hard cash from another player. There is no way around that. The only way to get PLEX into the game is via players buying them for real, hard cash. The total number of game months paid via PLEX cannot be higher than the amount of PLEX sold by CCP. So I don't see your point.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644

Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#51 - 2011-10-31 14:34:16 UTC
Sir HappyPants wrote:
Also, the higher PLEX prices go, the more people will be willing to part with real world cash to sell.

All that said, I sub all my accounts with PLEX. If they go much higher, my accounts will lapse. The more PLEX accounts lapse, the demand for PLEX will fall and thus the prices. It's basic economics.


This. A new equilibrium will be reached. With the economy such as it is, and the state of EVE post-Incarna, it's logical the equilibrium price will be higher than before. How much higher, we'll have to see.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644

Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#52 - 2011-10-31 14:34:20 UTC
I hope you all realize this is exactly what CCP wanted. A increase in Plex price means more people will be willing to buy Plexs for $$, this helps with curbing illegal RMT as well as increase profit for CCP since Plex > Sub cost . Its just a shame all those who play just to pay will get screwed, but all of us who are ballin really don't care.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden

Generals4
#53 - 2011-10-31 14:38:07 UTC
Thorn Galen wrote:
I am saying - Stop allowing ingame PLEX to be used to pay for Subs. Those extra, "free" accounts just generate more ISK, way more than the incoming real money spent to buy PLEX. There's your equations Sirs, think it through.

You sub (x) accounts by using ingame ISK to by ingame PLEX.
Those (x) account generate even more ISK
There's your ISK flood, blame that, stop trying to allocate blame on mission runners/incursions etc.
The fact is that ISK should not be able to buy ingame PLEX.
Will that upset people Hell yes it will.
Will accounts "unsubscribe" Hell yes they will - Unpaying accounts.
Most of you who are playing for more than a year do not even pay real cash to play Eve. You think this is cool and it is right - It is not cool nor right, you are undermining CCP, the very company struggling finacially, the company who run this game.

Stop the ISK faucet ? Easy, disallow the subbing of accounts using ingame PLEX. This will force those who want to play, to pay. All those thousands of free accounts that are ingame generating trillions of ISK can go away over time, because they are just using easily-earned ISK to buy ingame PLEX.

PLEX prices should be 10x their current amount in ISK - discourage all those free accounts churning out more ISK.




What you still don't get is that there is no such thing as "unpaying accounts" those accounts have been payed for, by someone else. Yes plex's may be the cause of the isk flood but how will removing them make CCP financially stronger? They would lose subs that have been payed at a higher price than the normal sub price ! Unless you go by the assumption the isk inflation is causing so many people to leave that it overcompensates the extra income generated by the PLEX system.

_-Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily. _

Shirah Yuri
Tonic Empire
#54 - 2011-10-31 14:39:38 UTC
Thorn Galen wrote:
You fail at mathematics and you fail at economics.
The system as it currently stands = diminishing returns.
Even using your own flawed example, "SOMEBODY" grows less and less, pray tell, what then ?
At the moment you are playing but not paying.
You are generating mountains of ISK and using that to pay for your accounts, you open new accounts with ISK you are making ingame (and making even more ISK to buy more PLEX which as you see now, has become more expensive) - You do the maths on that one. The "SOMEBODY" who buy Plex are lessening, hence CCP making it more attractive to the paying "SOMEBODY" to buy more Plex with special offers. The "SOMEBODY" are only willing to pay cash for (x) amount of PLEX they can sell for ISK ingame. The increased price of PLEX ingame is no accident. Open your eyes and mind.

It's all diminishing returns. You do the maths properly, you and others in this thread who blithly say I fail at maths. Clearly you have no foresight as to what is happening in terms of CCP getting hard cash from players.

Your flawed argument is that someone else has already paid for that account. Your omission is the fact that your new, freely-subbed account you bought with ISK is now generating even more ISK. So the wheel turns. People with free and ready real life cash to pay for PLEX to sell ingame are growing less by the day.

Your new, freely-subbed account (because you make so much ISK) is money CCP is never going to see as real, hard cash. There is no "1 for 1" here. My buying a PLEX and selling it ingame does not equal "your account has already been paid for". If that is as far as you can work it, then you truly "fail at math". Very short-term thinking.


I'll not chime in into trolling and failure accuses. However, I think you should respect one thing:

The PLEX price is determined by supply and demand, as is everything else in this game.

The very transaction of a PLEX does not add ISK to the game, nor drain them (other than the taxes involved in the transfer). Also, it does not grant free gametime. It's simply a trade between two players where one player gives the other player gametime (or an ingame object that is an abstract manifestation of that) that he paid for, getting ISK from another player.

What does that mean for economy?

At first glance, nothing, because no values are created, and no ISK are created or removed (in sizeable quantities). As a second-order term, liquidity in the game might be increased. The player who purchased the PLEX might or might not have had too much ISK to spend. The player who SOLD the plex is usually intending to spend the money rightaway or invest it, hence making it available for the market. So, a small increase in "liquid" ISK but hardly enough to have any gamebreaking effects, rather helping in keeping the markets going.

Does the PLEX price influence the number of GTC's bought?

If the plex price is any indication, then PLEXes are more desireable than before. Also, their price is rising, therefore the motivation to sell PLEX might even be increased. Hey, now you get more ISK for your money.
Only /IF/ the only motivation to buy GTC and sell it as PLEX is a fixed number of players wanting to get a fixed amount of ISK, then the number of PLEX created in game would decrease and prices would rise even further. But... as prices get even bigger, I am sure more players are lured into spending a quick 10 bucks into their game to get LOTS of ISK for that.

The sad thing about highly increasing PLEX prices is that you can easier P2W (pay to win) this game, because purchasing a titan with USD has never been cheaper. Also, new players might have a harder time financing their PLEX with in-game-work since it takes some time until you're able enough to fly incursions.

But that's about it.




Thorn Galen
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#55 - 2011-10-31 14:53:27 UTC
Shirah Yuri wrote:

I'll not chime in into trolling and failure accuses. However, I think you should respect one thing:

The PLEX price is determined by supply and demand, as is everything else in this game.

The very transaction of a PLEX does not add ISK to the game, nor drain them (other than the taxes involved in the transfer). Also, it does not grant free gametime. It's simply a trade between two players where one player gives the other player gametime (or an ingame object that is an abstract manifestation of that) that he paid for, getting ISK from another player.

What does that mean for economy?

At first glance, nothing, because no values are created, and no ISK are created or removed (in sizeable quantities). As a second-order term, liquidity in the game might be increased. The player who purchased the PLEX might or might not have had too much ISK to spend. The player who SOLD the plex is usually intending to spend the money rightaway or invest it, hence making it available for the market. So, a small increase in "liquid" ISK but hardly enough to have any gamebreaking effects, rather helping in keeping the markets going.

Does the PLEX price influence the number of GTC's bought?

If the plex price is any indication, then PLEXes are more desireable than before. Also, their price is rising, therefore the motivation to sell PLEX might even be increased. Hey, now you get more ISK for your money.
Only /IF/ the only motivation to buy GTC and sell it as PLEX is a fixed number of players wanting to get a fixed amount of ISK, then the number of PLEX created in game would decrease and prices would rise even further. But... as prices get even bigger, I am sure more players are lured into spending a quick 10 bucks into their game to get LOTS of ISK for that.

The sad thing about highly increasing PLEX prices is that you can easier P2W (pay to win) this game, because purchasing a titan with USD has never been cheaper. Also, new players might have a harder time financing their PLEX with in-game-work since it takes some time until you're able enough to fly incursions.

But that's about it.


Thank you, a decent, sensible response. Although I do not agree 100% with what you are saying, I find it more in line with the reality of the situation. I would just stress that the people doing the hard-cash buying of PLEX are diminishing. The rest of your analysis is pretty much along my lines of thought.


Dbars Grinding
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#56 - 2011-10-31 15:02:17 UTC
I agree these prices are bull. Where the hell is the ccp economy guy when you need him.

I have more space likes than you. 

I Accidentally YourShip
How Now Brown Cow
#57 - 2011-10-31 15:03:00 UTC  |  Edited by: I Accidentally YourShip
Thorn Galen wrote:

Thank you, a decent, sensible response. Although I do not agree 100% with what you are saying, I find it more in line with the reality of the situation. I would just stress that the people doing the hard-cash buying of PLEX are diminishing. The rest of your analysis is pretty much along my lines of thought.




The only way the PLEX gets into the market in the first place is if people pay CCP the 17-20 USD for first. CCP has already been paid for every single PLEX in game. Once it's in the game it can be used in whatever way possible, CCP has still already been paid for it, so CCP is not losing any money from the playerbase in general due to PLEX use but it does mean that some players effectively pay for others to play, in exchange for in game wealth.

Also to the people thinking this guy is trolling, this is what this guy is: http://lol.i.trollyou.com/



Also an amusing fact of PLEX; in North America it is not (legally) possible to earn an amount of money per hour at a job that would take more hours to put together a month of subscription in comparison to the hours it takes to farm for a PLEX for the average user. Before the mass manufacturers and station monkeys who "make a bil per week" chime in, you are not part of this group. These are the mission runners, the miners, the incursion runners, null sec ratters, etc. In Canada it takes less than two hours at minimum wage to pay for a month of subscription, it's not possible to earn 400 million isk in less than two hours on average from the typical sources of ISK. I'm aware this fact is painfully obvious, but I find it amusing anyway. People will slave away doing ISK farming missions for hours instead of not eating out a couple times a month.

Good for people with tight budgets who still want to play EVE though.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#58 - 2011-10-31 15:07:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Dbars Grinding wrote:
I agree these prices are bull. Where the hell is the ccp economy guy when you need him.
He's off having a hard time figuring out how to explain to mission runners, explorers and incursionists that they're going to have to take a pay cut…

…or possibly, he's just laughing at the PR people since it's up to them to entice people to keep paying for PLEX.
Tore Vest
#59 - 2011-10-31 15:16:19 UTC
Levija Saplina wrote:
this is ridiculous.

so i am going to let two of my accounts go unsubed.

do something CCP.

They have done something...
Supercap nerf Cool

No troll.

Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#60 - 2011-10-31 15:56:35 UTC
A few observations:

Paying for an account with cash costs $12 to $13 a month. A PLEX costs $17.50. Every account CCP can get switched to being funded via the PLEX market is more money for CCP.

A higher PLEX price (in ISK) doe not increase supply as much as you might think. Consider if I want to buy a 1.2 billion isk ship, funded via PLEX. If the PLEX is at 300 million I get 4 of them. If the PLEX is at 400 million I only need get 3. So in this case increasing PLEX prices REDUCES supply. Not everyone acts this way, but many do, so the result is higher PLEX prices do not increase supply that much.

PLEX price rises: I think its going up simply because more and more people are learning how to make bucket-loads of ISK. As the price works its way up, they keep stepping up their game to match. I know my present operations could keep my 3 accounts funded up to a PLEX price of 700 million, and I could step it up.

Why use ISK rather than working far less real time in a RL job? First, I enjoy the activities that make ISK. Next, over my eve career I have saved myself $1000, not a small amount. Finally, Im salaried, which means I cannot get extra pay for overtime, Im paid per week, not per hour. To work extra hours to pay for eve would require getting a second job, and jobs that allow you to work 2 hours a month to pay for computer games are few and far between.

What can CCP do to reduce the PLEX price? So far it looks like the only thing is PLEX special offers. Game changes to reduce player income would lose subscribers. The ones that go are those just on the edge of being able to fund their subscription with PLEX. The ones like me who can deal with the high price would remain, so some upward pressure on the PLEX price would remain.

ISK sinks: The biggest sink in the game is the Loyalty Store. Many items require ISK along with the LP. A while ago a Dev posted this:

"A freebie, last 24hrs transaction stats for a selection of faucets and sinks -
as you can see, Concord is a very generous organization!

Trade Total

* Market Transaction 5,848,221,406,963

Faucets
* Bounty Prizes 876,039,478,466
* Agent Mission Reward 68,923,141,163
* Agent Mission Time Bonus 63,450,447,585
* Insurance Payouts 111,942,877,603

Sinks
* Sales Tax 6,227,911,218
* Brokers fee 6,733,818,276
* PI Construction Costs 7,575,185,000
* PI Import Tax 290,289,843
* PI Export Tax 3,355,153,925
* Insurance Cost 43,021,823,156
* Clone Activation 20,197,210,000
* Sovereignty Bill 59,332,000,000
* LP Store 135,343,150,000 "

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction