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Is creating my own POS worth it?
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Darryn Lowe
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2013-04-08 02:05:36 UTC
I know you need fuel and all but I was wondering if creating my own POS for refining, researching, and manufacturing was worth it?

I'm finding I have to travel long distance to research and sometimes I get the same issue with manufacturing due to slots being filled, so is a POS viable or should I just grin and bear it?

I'm currently based in 0.5 space.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#2 - 2013-04-08 02:25:29 UTC
Pretty critical if you're doing lots of research, maybe useful for manufacturing, not at all worth it for refining.

I honestly have no idea how I got by before I put up a POS to support my invention habit.
Darryn Lowe
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2013-04-08 02:28:52 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Pretty critical if you're doing lots of research, maybe useful for manufacturing, not at all worth it for refining.

I honestly have no idea how I got by before I put up a POS to support my invention habit.

So with refining is it not doable or is there too much wastage?

I'd kind of like to do it all at one location if I could.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#4 - 2013-04-08 02:36:43 UTC
Darryn Lowe wrote:
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Pretty critical if you're doing lots of research, maybe useful for manufacturing, not at all worth it for refining.

I honestly have no idea how I got by before I put up a POS to support my invention habit.

So with refining is it not doable or is there too much wastage?

I'd kind of like to do it all at one location if I could.


There's too much waste to be worthwhile in high sec. And last I checked you couldn't refine modules either: just ore and ice.
Darryn Lowe
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2013-04-08 02:52:05 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Darryn Lowe wrote:
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Pretty critical if you're doing lots of research, maybe useful for manufacturing, not at all worth it for refining.

I honestly have no idea how I got by before I put up a POS to support my invention habit.

So with refining is it not doable or is there too much wastage?

I'd kind of like to do it all at one location if I could.


There's too much waste to be worthwhile in high sec. And last I checked you couldn't refine modules either: just ore and ice.

Thanks for your help.
Thur Barbek
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2013-04-08 03:44:14 UTC
If your asking whether its worth it, your not ready for one. A pos requires a lot of work and isk to get set up and if you don't know what you'd use it for, its not worth it.

When you need one to advance your plans, then get one.

Also in highsec the only real reason you need a pos is for research and maybe manufacture slots if you have several alts filling up the station slots.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#7 - 2013-04-08 04:24:08 UTC
Darryn Lowe wrote:
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Pretty critical if you're doing lots of research, maybe useful for manufacturing, not at all worth it for refining.

I honestly have no idea how I got by before I put up a POS to support my invention habit.

So with refining is it not doable or is there too much wastage?

I'd kind of like to do it all at one location if I could.


75% yield unaffected by skills. And it's a multiple hour job rather than instant, and it can only do one ore at a time.

Besides, you want your POS to be in a station system so you can have a Corp Office.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Darryn Lowe
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2013-04-08 04:36:38 UTC
Thur Barbek wrote:
If your asking whether its worth it, your not ready for one. A pos requires a lot of work and isk to get set up and if you don't know what you'd use it for, its not worth it.

When you need one to advance your plans, then get one.

Also in highsec the only real reason you need a pos is for research and maybe manufacture slots if you have several alts filling up the station slots.

Oh I know what I'd use it for. I'm just wanting to know if it would be more advantageous to build one to do my refining and manufacturing and research.

If the only benefit I'll get is with research then it's not worth it to me to build one.

I was hoping that I could build one to do all of my industrial stuff but it sounds like I'm not going to get the benefit of the station which is what I was really just trying to find out.
Officer Nyota Uhura
#9 - 2013-04-08 04:41:46 UTC
Darryn Lowe wrote:
If the only benefit I'll get is with research then it's not worth it to me to build one.

Well, you're not gonna do research then. ME queues in empire are 30+ days.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#10 - 2013-04-08 05:28:15 UTC
Officer Nyota Uhura wrote:
Darryn Lowe wrote:
If the only benefit I'll get is with research then it's not worth it to me to build one.

Well, you're not gonna do research then. ME queues in empire are 30+ days.



ME queues in lowsec can be a lot lower. I'm considering a POS but at the moment I run ME jobs in lowsec stations in Sinq Laison (Dodixie's region) and can usually find one that's 13-17 days. My copying centre has 36-96 hour queues at different times and my invention centre and production centre are both in highsec and usually have no wait except on Saturdays when there can be a short one.

If you are confident in flying BPOs around in lowsec you can move them yourself - if not, courier contracts with high collateral get the job done. Don't use collateral as insurance (e.g. paying 80% of the BPO NPC cost to soften the blow of a loss), instead set the collateral high enough (~120-130% of the market value of the researched BPO) that you WANT them to fail. If they succeed, well at least you got your BPO moved.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Styth spiting
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2013-04-08 07:38:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Styth spiting
POS's like freighters are items you only get once you truly need them. They are a pain in every way but they do have value one you surpass the need for one and no other options are available.

Ignoring the starting cost for a POS you will have about roughly 300M isk / month cost in fuel. This means you need to get 10M isk profit out of your POS per day. Sure having your own POS is great if you do some ME research, but unless you are continually using the POS to pay for itself you are better off simply buying a pre-researched BPO.

For example, on average 24 hours of research has a value of about 2.5M (some times more with longer run BPOs like capitals, sometimes less with things like ammo). This means if you had 1 character doing 1 ME research job for 30 days you would get out of it 75M isk worth of research. You would need to have 4 research slots running non-stop to pay for the POS fuel, but realistically assume 6 for lost time (job completes while sleeping, run out of BPO's, waiting to sell BPO's, whatever). After this point the POS then pays for its self, and anything past this point can be profitable.

So unless you are willing to manage this many BPO's and keep them running non-stopped, and then selling the, you would auctually spend less buying pre-researched BPO's then running a POS yourself.

Also refining at a POS has a 25% waste to it (can be decreased with implants) for ore, while ice has 0%. You cannot reprocesses items
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#12 - 2013-04-08 09:24:08 UTC
Manufacturing out of a POS can be a bit of a pain,mostly from making sure each array is stocked. Though this will become /less/ painful come Odyssey, with the ability to move stuff around, without needing to be within 3km of the arrays.

The hourly cost for slots will, in general, be higher than that of a station. But they're yours, no-one else can cut in on them, and they're 33% faster (more if it's a rapid array, but those have a wastage associated with them)

So if the market can absorb the volume, you can make significantly more on them.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#13 - 2013-04-08 09:41:48 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Steve Ronuken wrote:
So if the market can absorb the volume, you can make significantly more on them.


Of course, the per slot PLEX cost of an account with 30 manufacturing slots on it is generally less than the value that that 33% increase in yield gets you, so ymmv there.

Baseline for comparison is 1 Account with 3 characters and 10 Manufacturing slots each (this is the best case scenario for a manufacturing POS).

POS:
30 Slots*168*4*.33 = 6652.8 Extra Slot/hrs per month from the POS.
Cost: 200m/month (being nice and assuming you can do all your manufacturing with a Medium POS).
Cost per extra slot/hr: 30,062 ISK

Second Account:
30 Slots*168*4*1 = 20160 Extra Slot/hrs per month from the Account.
Cost 500m/month
Cost per extra slot/hr: 24801 ISK (+300-700 ISK from station fees)

The second account also comes with ancillary benefits (character research slots, etc), and station manufacturing is generally easier to deal with. The downside is that you need more BPOs to fill up those slots (that ceases to be a significant one pretty quickly.)

The POS also has lower startup costs (it costs 1.5b to get 3 characters doing T1 manufacturing, and only around 500m to get a standings corp, get a medium POS, and get some arrays).

And, again, a flipside, Characters are assets that appreciate as you pay into them, fuel is simply burned. So that 25k ISK/slot PLEX cost is like paying a mortgage, while the 30k ISK/slot is like paying rent.


Anyway, a pure manufacturing POS rarely (if ever) makes economic sense. Manufacturing when you have CPU left over from an Invention or Research POS that happens to have excess CPU can be quite handy though.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Dasola
New Edens Freeports
#14 - 2013-04-08 09:51:41 UTC
For refining: No
For research: Yes
For manufacturing: Maybe

If your planning doing seriously level of research, you pretty much need your own pos. If your worried about cost, try small caldari tower in high-sec first. Can fit 3 labs easy. If they're mobile labs that's. 9 ME slots, 9 Pe slots, 15 invention slots and 3 copy slots.

For light invention stuff i favor 1 mobile lab and 2 advanced labs, but thats my persoanl preference and im not doing serious industry...

Manufacturing at pos is worth it if you really need that extra boost (0.75 time multiplier), i usually just use npc slots. Plenty of those available in high-sec.


We are Minmatar, Our ship are made of scraps, but look what our scraps can do...
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#15 - 2013-04-08 10:34:26 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
So if the market can absorb the volume, you can make significantly more on them.


Of course, the per slot PLEX cost of an account with 30 manufacturing slots on it is generally less than the value that that 33% increase in yield gets you, so ymmv there.

Baseline for comparison is 1 Account with 3 characters and 10 Manufacturing slots each (this is the best case scenario for a manufacturing POS).

POS:
30 Slots*168*4*.33 = 6652.8 Extra Slot/hrs per month from the POS.
Cost: 200m/month (being nice and assuming you can do all your manufacturing with a Medium POS).
Cost per extra slot/hr: 30,062 ISK

Second Account:
30 Slots*168*4*1 = 20160 Extra Slot/hrs per month from the Account.
Cost 500m/month
Cost per extra slot/hr: 24801 ISK (+300-700 ISK from a station)

The second account also comes with ancillary benefits (character research slots, etc), and station manufacturing is generally easier to deal with. The downside is that you need more BPOs to fill up those slots (that ceases to be a significant one pretty quickly.)

The POS also has lower startup costs (it costs 1.5b to get 3 characters doing T1 manufacturing, and only around 500m to get a standings corp, get a medium POS, and get some arrays).

And, again, a flipside, Characters are assets that appreciate as you pay into them, fuel is simply burned. So that 25k ISK/slot PLEX cost is like paying a mortgage, while the 30k ISK/slot is like paying rent.


Anyway, a pure manufacturing POS rarely (if ever) makes economic sense. Manufacturing when you have CPU left over from an Invention or Research POS that happens to have excess CPU can be quite handy though.



The way I looked at it was more to do with the cost per hour, per slot, being easily absorbed by the increased isk/hr; with only a minor increase in clicks.

All the manufacturing I do in POS is wrapped round the labs for copying and invention. (Mostly copying. Though the reduction in time for copy slots is handy, for days with limited play time.)

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#16 - 2013-04-08 11:34:42 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Steve Ronuken wrote:
The way I looked at it was more to do with the cost per hour, per slot, being easily absorbed by the increased isk/hr; with only a minor increase in clicks.

All the manufacturing I do in POS is wrapped round the labs for copying and invention. (Mostly copying. Though the reduction in time for copy slots is handy, for days with limited play time.)


Sure it is. Lots of costs are smaller than the benefits that paying them provide. That doesn't mean you can ignore them or that you shouldn't attempt to minimize them.

The cost per slot/hr on a manufacturing POS is significantly higher than the alternative, and that alternative provides significant additional benefits (adding a manufacturing POS doesn't expand your research capabilities the same way more characters does).


I do the same thing you do with my POS. I have spare CPU, so I have Comp and Equip assembly arrays to fill it. As characters develop, I will no longer have that spare CPU, so I'll end up manufacturing in nearby stations, because I can't see an economic reason to put up a dedicated manufacturing POS when I can just use stations. My point is not: "don't manufacture at a POS," it's "don't set up a POS for the manufacturing."



With copying and (especially ME) research, the paucity of station slots results in a much larger benefit to using a POS and the POS comes out way ahead.

Assume a 2 week average lead time in station (totally lowballing it)(using 6 weeks because that's how long a 4 week job takes with lead time):

POS:
600m Cost (Now it's a large. Why not.)
30*168*6*1.33 = 40,219.2 Slot/hrs per 6 weeks.
14,918 ISK per slot/hr

Second Account:
750m Cost
60*168*(6-2) = 40,320 Slot/hrs per 6 weeks.
18,600 ISK per slot/hr

Best case scenario (for an additional account), a research POS is some 25% cheaper than expanding capacity via character slots.


Invention (assume no wait in stations):
POS
400m Cost:
30*168*4*2 = 40,320 slot/hrs per month
9920 ISK per slot/hr

Second Account:
500m Cost
60*168*4 = 40,320 slot/hrs per month
12400 ISK per slot/hr

It's closer, but the POS still wins out (so long as POS fuel is lower than a PLEX a month) due to that nifty 50% time multiplier (Also, finding that many invention slots in stations is not super easy).

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon