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L4 shield hurricane vs inties?

Author
Groen Burleigh
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2011-10-31 03:05:51 UTC
I've read lots of rabid comments about how stupid anyone who runs an armour-tanked Hurricane is, and how a passive shield-tanked cane is the l33t for missions.

But with no ewar slots, how do you deal with the scrambling interceptors? Even with web + target painter, my t1 drones + assault launchers have a tough time against these, especially the Spider Drone IIs in Duo Of Death. So what am I missing? Are t2 drones really that much better that they don't need the ewar support? Or are the shield-nuts just looking at raw dps without actually flying the things?

And yes, i know i could probably earn ISK quicker in L3s, but they were getting a bit boring. Warp in, shoot everything, leave, salvage. L4s are definitely a challenge.

Sphit Ker
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2011-10-31 03:31:11 UTC
Groen Burleigh wrote:
I've read lots of rabid comments about how stupid anyone who runs an armour-tanked Hurricane is, and how a passive shield-tanked cane is the l33t for missions.



Yea what about that? I also hear people laughing at shield tanked Harbingers. The joke is, both ships shares the exact same slot layout and neither of them enjoy any bonus to tanking whatsoever.



Now, these Spider Drone IIs are notoriously over the top and yes, tech 2 drones really are better. Compare warrior 1 to warrior 2 just for the hell of it.

2.7 rad/sec vs 3.24 rad/sec
4,200 m/s vs 5,040 m/s
1.3x damage modifier vs 1.56x
.. and so on.

It knows what you think.

mxzf
Shovel Bros
#3 - 2011-10-31 03:40:09 UTC
It boils down to the fact that an armor tanked cane has more issues fitting damage mods than a shield-gank fit. A shield-gank Cane can dedicate 3-5 slots to gank, an armor one can usually only spare 1-2 slots. More DPS == killing rats faster == quicker mission times.

And T2 Goblins/Warriors will eat up hostile frigs if you have decent drone support skills. You've got Drone Interfacing to atleast 4, right? That's essential for anyone using any drones (AKA, anyone playing Eve)
Flakey Foont
#4 - 2011-10-31 03:58:45 UTC
Get T2 drones stat.
Lili Lu
#5 - 2011-10-31 04:06:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
It is sorta apples and oranges. A shield buffer cane has no tackle. It is meant to be used in a fleet. Especially in 0.0 where you can have a bubbler as tackle. In that situation your cane is fit to inflict lots of damage and fast. That is why you see people trumpeting shield buffer canes. They are decent killers when massed together in a fleet.

If you are in a small gang or solo then you are more likely to go with an armor tank, because you need a point. your tank gets even thinner by only having one LSE and an invuln to go with your mwd and warp scram or disrupter. Whereas having a point, web, mwd, and cap injector, means plates adn armor resist(s) in the lows to allow the tackle.

In missions it depends on the rats. A passive regen shield cane can work because of the out of balance regen on a BC's shields and the damage type being inflicted. A BC has the shield hp close to a BS but the regen time is closer to a cruiser's. Then against Angels you are mostly receiving explo and kinetic which are a shields top resists. So combine the op shield regen and the favorable resist profile and a passive shield regen cane can work for angel level 3s. The shield tank makes it much easier to fit 3 damage mods in the 6 lows on the cane. Obviously, if your cane is looking at blood raider and sansha you won't want purger rigs, SPRs and LSEs, you will want MAR and ANP rigs.

Against inties in either configuration you will probably end up relying on warrior IIs.

The Harbinger does not lend itself to shield tanking. In missions or pvp if you try to construct a passive regen or shield buffer tank, despite the same slot layout, you will run into serious cap problems. Lasers use cap, so having SPRs in lows is a killer, and SPR(s) are necessary to build an adequate passive regen. For pvp again even without any SPR there is still potential cap problems. Fitting a mwd in a mid hurts your cap and not having a mid for a cap injector becomes problematic.

edit- and anyone doing level 4s in a tech I BC is not doing them well. Some people say they can run level 4s in a Harby or Cane or Myrm. Maybe they can but they are probably fitting pimped mods (and on a tech I BC just why) or they are taking forever because their tank and damage projection are not good to say the least. The Myrm only has 75m3 bandwidth, so damage is anemic even if it can be fit to adequately tank a level 4. With the cane and harby if you fit for adequate level 4 damage you will lack in tank and if you fit for adequate tank you will lack in gank.

The Drake is easiest to level 4 tank, and you still have lows to fit damage mods for increased damage. Add to it that heavy missiles get better range than any weapons on a Harb or Cane. Now the Drake is a rather slow level 4 ship, but of all the tier 2 BCs it is far and away the most able. Maybe the new balancing patch will bring it more in line with the other BCs. We will see.
Whiteknight03
Trilon Industries and Exploration
#6 - 2011-10-31 08:26:41 UTC
T2 Lights are essential for taking out spiderdrones. Annoying as hell when you get webbed.

I mostly use the Apoc or Domi for level 4's, depending on mission type, but there is one Lvl 4 mission where I absolutely always use the Drake. Damsel in Distress 4. The BS in that mission hit very hard to BS size targets, but a drake can tank it quite adequately and still deal enough damage for a decent completion time.
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2011-10-31 11:26:41 UTC
Groen Burleigh wrote:
I've read lots of rabid comments about how stupid anyone who runs an armour-tanked Hurricane is, and how a passive shield-tanked cane is the l33t for missions.

But with no ewar slots, how do you deal with the scrambling interceptors? Even with web + target painter, my t1 drones + assault launchers have a tough time against these, especially the Spider Drone IIs in Duo Of Death. So what am I missing? Are t2 drones really that much better that they don't need the ewar support? Or are the shield-nuts just looking at raw dps without actually flying the things?

And yes, i know i could probably earn ISK quicker in L3s, but they were getting a bit boring. Warp in, shoot everything, leave, salvage. L4s are definitely a challenge.



+1 for a man who doesn't want to run lvl4s in easy mode.
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2011-10-31 11:29:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Solstice Project
Lili Lu wrote:
and anyone doing level 4s in a tech I BC is not doing them well. Some people say they can run level 4s in a Harby or Cane or Myrm. Maybe they can but they are probably fitting pimped mods (and on a tech I BC just why) or they are taking forever because their tank and damage projection are not good to say the least. The Myrm only has 75m3 bandwidth, so damage is anemic even if it can be fit to adequately tank a level 4. With the cane and harby if you fit for adequate level 4 damage you will lack in tank and if you fit for adequate tank you will lack in gank.



Nope, no pimped mods necessary on a cane to run lvl4s.
Definitly possible to run them in a passive shield cane or nano'd (altough not necessary) artillery cane, t2 fitted.

At least all that i've tried, which were quite a few.

And for the myrmidon and drake ...
With a myrmidon it's pure masochism, because it takes ages to do them.
Drake is the one easy-mode-lvl4 b/c, though ... and pretty boring to use.
JitaJane
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#9 - 2011-10-31 11:46:07 UTC
Bought my first Mael running 4s in the 'Cane. they take a lot longer than 3s but the bounties and LP are a lot higher. As to the intys yes for those spiders you will likely need TII drones, check that. Don't get into a BS without having trained T2 drones because they are even more of a pain then. That and the larger drone bays make the DPS difference significant. For most other inti rats with an AB 'Cane you can kite them and then pop them with your guns as they try to align with you. this only works if you do it right after jumping in in that second or two before they aggress. As tot he preference for Passive shield it comes down to the inherent regen rates of ship class. Generally the smaller the hull the higher the proportion of total passive to total shield size. So at that point where you have the fitting and PG/CPU of a Teir2 BC everything gets better passive than any tank you can fit to it. The Drake is notorious for it, the 'Cane does well and returns with extra DPS and the slot heavy Myrm can make a monstrous tank. i don't fly Amarr so I can't say for them. My guess is that the cap-hungry nature of lazors makes the cap drain of SPRs nonviable. Damn. Think I'm going to put together a L4 Cane and have at some now. What's in the parts box......

90% of of the time my posts are about something I actually find interesting and want to learn more about. Do not be alarmed.

Domyn
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2011-10-31 14:46:03 UTC
To the OP: Yes you will probably need the tech 2 drones to deal with the frigates. It will probably take a week or 2 to get into them, but you wont regret it. And by tech 2 drones i mean lights and mediums, the others aren't worth training for early on unless you go for the drone ships.

As for the myrmidon, i believe its damage is more or less comparable to the other BCs. It has by far the largest fitting options though, so a lot depends on how you fit it (armor or shield, lasers, autocannons or hybrids, etc.)
theres absolutely zero reason to use it in pve though (looking at you dominix!)
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2011-11-04 09:39:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Solstice Project
Domyn wrote:
As for the myrmidon, i believe its damage is more or less comparable to the other BCs. It has by far the largest fitting options though, so a lot depends on how you fit it (armor or shield, lasers, autocannons or hybrids, etc.)
theres absolutely zero reason to use it in pve though (looking at you dominix!)



Congratulations,
you show a great lack of intelligence.

The damage output of a myrmidon is in no way even close to the other battlecruisers.

Not "more or less". Nope. No way.
It's low. It doesn't even have a gun bonus.
Did you know that ? Doesn't look like it.

There are plenty of reasons to use the myrmidon for PvE,
for example the fact that it costs much less than a dominix
and can be awesomely shield- or armor-tanked,
whatever one prefers or depending on the enemies.

Only downside is, most PvE-content will take a great amount of time compared to other b/c.


Battleships for lvl4s is for weaklings.
Onictus
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#12 - 2011-11-04 11:24:29 UTC
Solstice Project wrote:
Domyn wrote:
As for the myrmidon, i believe its damage is more or less comparable to the other BCs. It has by far the largest fitting options though, so a lot depends on how you fit it (armor or shield, lasers, autocannons or hybrids, etc.)
theres absolutely zero reason to use it in pve though (looking at you dominix!)



Congratulations,
you show a great lack of intelligence.

The damage output of a myrmidon is in no way even close to the other battlecruisers.

Not "more or less". Nope. No way.
It's low. It doesn't even have a gun bonus.
Did you know that ? Doesn't look like it.

There are plenty of reasons to use the myrmidon for PvE,
for example the fact that it costs much less than a dominix
and can be awesomely shield- or armor-tanked,
whatever one prefers or depending on the enemies.

Only downside is, most PvE-content will take a great amount of time compared to other b/c.


Battleships for lvl4s is for weaklings.



Dominix is only costs about 20 million more than a myrm rigged and does considerably better DPS.
Cyniac
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2011-11-04 11:31:19 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Dominix is only costs about 20 million more than a myrm rigged and does considerably better DPS.


Let me guess... you are thinking CCC rigs?
Captain Nares
O3 Corporation
#14 - 2011-11-04 11:31:36 UTC
T2 hobs.
Onictus
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#15 - 2011-11-04 11:36:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Cyniac wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Dominix is only costs about 20 million more than a myrm rigged and does considerably better DPS.


Let me guess... you are thinking CCC rigs?



Yeah since the domi can tank pretty much anything in level 4 without armor rigs....why blow the isk
You can do the same thing with a myrm if you must, but it will always be slower.
Cyniac
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2011-11-04 14:34:58 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Yeah since the domi can tank pretty much anything in level 4 without armor rigs....why blow the isk
You can do the same thing with a myrm if you must, but it will always be slower.


Why? To increase DPS - CCC rigs are more or less the norm in dual repper Domis.

A single repper though is more than enough if you know what you are doing and have good tanking skills. You can get your DPS high enough by longer using CCC rigs but either 2 sentry damage augmentor rigs or a sentry damage augmentor rig and nanobot accelators / auxiliary nanopumps

This gives the Domi much more firepower because it also fills up midslots for a rack of omnidirectionals - but it does mean a fully rigged Domi ends up being significantly more expensive than a Myrm.