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Caldari Prime now a DMZ
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Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#101 - 2013-04-05 15:19:52 UTC
It's a step forward. A small step and by no means a perfect one but we don't live in a perfect world.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#102 - 2013-04-05 15:33:18 UTC
My guess is that these borders otherwise line up with the territories held by ground forces when a cease fire was declared. As such, I suspect this is the best we could really hope for, given the circumstances.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#103 - 2013-04-05 15:47:45 UTC
Svetlana Scarlet wrote:
Xindi Kraid wrote:
So some additional details.

Fifty-Four percent of Caldari Prime will be administered by Ishukone with the citizens there retaining their corporate citizenship and subject to Ishukone law and taxes. THe other fourty-six percent will be Gallente territory administrated by Material Aquisition, a subsidiary of Quafe with everyone living in those districts being considered Federation citizens and subject to their law. Neither side are to be racially segregated which, assuming it holds up, will be different from both the past five years as well as former Gaallente occupation. Modrus Legion will provide security and policing from a joint fund operated equally by the CEP and the Federation.


I can't say I agree with the move to have nearly half of the planet owned by the Gallente. I do hope it is just a transitional step on the road to Caldari Prime being fully returned to the Caldari people. I have no issues with Gallente still living on the planet if they so choose, but they would become Caldari Citizens if the planet were to be fully returned to our control.

To be fair, Quafe is the only non-Caldari corporation fully recognized by the CEP as having corporate sovereignty within the borders of the State. While there should, no doubt, be some remuneration paid by Quafe and its subsidiaries for the territory under their administration, Quafe enclaves elsewhere in the State retain similar rights and privileges.

Yes, but they are administering it for the Gallente and the people living in those districts are citizens of the Gallente Federation.
While I am glad the killing has stopped for the moment and the focus has been on providing aid, I feel the split ownership of Caldari Prime is sub-optimal, so I hope the long term plan is a restructuring that leaves the entirety of Caldari Prime under Caldari Control.
James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#104 - 2013-04-06 00:30:47 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
James Syagrius wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
James Syagrius wrote:

I don't think I ever calmed to be a humanitarian Msr. Tuulinen.
But you may rest assured my contributions to conditions on Caldari Prime do have... effects.


Yes, I remember. You shipped arms and explosives to terrorists. Let's hope that they're able to find all those arms and explosives now the planet is being demilled, eh? It would be a shame if the only thing of lasting worth that you'd accomplished would be to fund and equip criminals, wouldn't it?

Pieter, those "terrorist" were Gallenteans civilians fighting a repressive foreign occupation.

I know and understand that most Caldari view Caldari Prime as "Home", but so do those you call terrorists.

My position on the disposition of Caldari Prime is common knowledge. But any government that hopes to stand a chance of bringing peace and stability to Caldari Prime is going to have to acknowledge the non-Caldari who have called it home for generations.

The ethnically pure planet of your collective cultural fantasy no longer exists.

Those "Gallentean civilians" were hired mercs dropped by Federation earlier to provoke response by orbiting fleet.
Besides, it is OUR planet, and it is GALLENTE scumdogs who were occupying it. You can't place occupation on occupants. This is like... I dunno, maybe gallenteans could, their wicked ideals of freedom and liberty can call this things like occupation.
But it won't change the fact that it is our home, not their, and it is gallenteans on Caldari Prime who are aliens and must be get rid of. They were occupants.

Thanks to our glorious leader Tibus Heth, occupation is no more.

I have been told about your... condition Ms. Kim, you have my sympathies. I won't you to know that there are several good psychiatric treatment faculties in the Federations that have had great success in treating conditions such as yours. I would be happy to assist with any expenses associated with your care. Get well soon.

“Here also are the heralds of his praise."
Fey Ivory
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#105 - 2013-04-06 00:39:38 UTC
Xindi Kraid wrote:
Svetlana Scarlet wrote:
Xindi Kraid wrote:
So some additional details.

Fifty-Four percent of Caldari Prime will be administered by Ishukone with the citizens there retaining their corporate citizenship and subject to Ishukone law and taxes. THe other fourty-six percent will be Gallente territory administrated by Material Aquisition, a subsidiary of Quafe with everyone living in those districts being considered Federation citizens and subject to their law. Neither side are to be racially segregated which, assuming it holds up, will be different from both the past five years as well as former Gaallente occupation. Modrus Legion will provide security and policing from a joint fund operated equally by the CEP and the Federation.


I can't say I agree with the move to have nearly half of the planet owned by the Gallente. I do hope it is just a transitional step on the road to Caldari Prime being fully returned to the Caldari people. I have no issues with Gallente still living on the planet if they so choose, but they would become Caldari Citizens if the planet were to be fully returned to our control.

To be fair, Quafe is the only non-Caldari corporation fully recognized by the CEP as having corporate sovereignty within the borders of the State. While there should, no doubt, be some remuneration paid by Quafe and its subsidiaries for the territory under their administration, Quafe enclaves elsewhere in the State retain similar rights and privileges.

Yes, but they are administering it for the Gallente and the people living in those districts are citizens of the Gallente Federation.
While I am glad the killing has stopped for the moment and the focus has been on providing aid, I feel the split ownership of Caldari Prime is sub-optimal, so I hope the long term plan is a restructuring that leaves the entirety of Caldari Prime under Caldari Control.


I see it alittle like this, Caldari Prime, is a State planet, that is located within the Federation, and the planet have Gallante Enclaves within the State planet Caldari Prime...
BloodBird
The Crucible.
#106 - 2013-04-06 03:42:55 UTC
Xindi Kraid wrote:

Yes, but they are administering it for the Gallente and the people living in those districts are citizens of the Gallente Federation.
While I am glad the killing has stopped for the moment and the focus has been on providing aid, I feel the split ownership of Caldari Prime is sub-optimal, so I hope the long term plan is a restructuring that leaves the entirety of Caldari Prime under Caldari Control.


Some people are never happy, I guess.

TRY to see it from the Union's side of things, will you?

History being what it is, Caldari Prime has been divided between Federation member-states for two hundred years by now. This is a fact, we can argue the how and why that led to that but it is what it is. It was not fair the way it ended like that and it was not fair the way it changed 5 years ago and this is likely not 100% fair either.

If two hundred years worth of linage on the planet is not enough to earn you the right to live there and call yourself a native than let's be honest, nothing ever will.

Making this entire world a DMZ and dividing it between out two nations with neutral security was the best compromise available.

Those who wish to remain citizens of the Federation can simply move to the right areas of the planet, those who wish to be under the rule of the State also know where to go.

What you want is for every Federal on this planet to be marginalized and cast out of their homes for the sake of your own people, and for the whole planet to be your sovereign territory.

In the middle of the Union's space, with the people who have lived there for centuries cast out. It is never going to happen. It's that simple. We had to reach a compromise, and this is it.

The alternative is to have the Federation re-gain control over the entire world in due time, and re-ignite your reasons for attacking in the first place, then this lovely war could go on forever, while your citizens get to draw straws and decide who get to live on Caldari Prime, and who get the privilege to die fighting to maintain the first groups ability to do so.

I don't know about you, but I prefer not to spend eternity fighting over this same old issue.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#107 - 2013-04-06 04:56:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Pieter Tuulinen
This is the best solution possible in an imperfect universe.

So long as the Federation is cutting access off from Home, I'll fight them.
So long as the Federation is marginalising State interests on Home, I'll fight them.
So long as the Federation is opressing the Caldari people on Home, I'll fight them.

But when they sit down and cut the best possible deal for both sides? One that allows State citizens access to Home - and allows them to settle there whilst remaining State citizens? A deal that allows them to preserve their sovreignty in the Luminaire system and protect their own settlers on Caldari Prime?

At that point it's time to put the guns down and let the diplomats and administrators do their work, don't you think?

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#108 - 2013-04-06 06:21:36 UTC
I never said anything about casting anyone out of their home. I don't have any issues with the civilians there; I just don't think the Federation deserves any claim to the planet.

Please do not take my statements out of context.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#109 - 2013-04-06 09:21:40 UTC
Xindi Kraid wrote:
I never said anything about casting anyone out of their home. I don't have any issues with the civilians there; I just don't think the Federation deserves any claim to the planet.

Please do not take my statements out of context.


Of course, it depends mostly if one considers that what constitutes a nation state is either the citizens, or its sovereign authorities.

I guess you believe in the latter?
Shiho Weitong
Yeet and Yoink Inc.
Heirs To The Pleasurehub
#110 - 2013-04-06 09:42:11 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
Xindi Kraid wrote:
I never said anything about casting anyone out of their home. I don't have any issues with the civilians there; I just don't think the Federation deserves any claim to the planet.

Please do not take my statements out of context.


Of course, it depends mostly if one considers that what constitutes a nation state is either the citizens, or its sovereign authorities.

I guess you believe in the latter?


It's neither. The Caldari state is the combined tangible and intangible economic interests of the CEP.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#111 - 2013-04-06 10:11:07 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
This is the best solution possible in an imperfect universe.

So long as the Federation is cutting access off from Home, I'll fight them.
So long as the Federation is marginalising State interests on Home, I'll fight them.
So long as the Federation is opressing the Caldari people on Home, I'll fight them.

But when they sit down and cut the best possible deal for both sides? One that allows State citizens access to Home - and allows them to settle there whilst remaining State citizens? A deal that allows them to preserve their sovreignty in the Luminaire system and protect their own settlers on Caldari Prime?

At that point it's time to put the guns down and let the diplomats and administrators do their work, don't you think?

Just no.
Because while you sit down, they prepare their next attack.
The catastrophe, that happened with CN Shiigeru should not happen ever again!
We must strike first!

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#112 - 2013-04-06 11:53:35 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Because while you sit down, they prepare their next attack.
We must strike first!

I think you must be mentally handicapped if you can't see the obvious hypocricy in this statement.

Oh wait, everyone knows you're mentally handicapped anyway.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#113 - 2013-04-06 14:19:23 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
This is the best solution possible in an imperfect universe.

So long as the Federation is cutting access off from Home, I'll fight them.
So long as the Federation is marginalising State interests on Home, I'll fight them.
So long as the Federation is opressing the Caldari people on Home, I'll fight them.

But when they sit down and cut the best possible deal for both sides? One that allows State citizens access to Home - and allows them to settle there whilst remaining State citizens? A deal that allows them to preserve their sovreignty in the Luminaire system and protect their own settlers on Caldari Prime?

At that point it's time to put the guns down and let the diplomats and administrators do their work, don't you think?

Just no.
Because while you sit down, they prepare their next attack.
The catastrophe, that happened with CN Shiigeru should not happen ever again!
We must strike first!


It wont, because the State wont be getting another Leviathan in low orbit.

You have become a relic Kim, like your hero Heth you have become surplus to requirement, your inability for realistic and rational thought demonstrates this even further.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#114 - 2013-04-06 20:01:14 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
Xindi Kraid wrote:
I never said anything about casting anyone out of their home. I don't have any issues with the civilians there; I just don't think the Federation deserves any claim to the planet.

Please do not take my statements out of context.


Of course, it depends mostly if one considers that what constitutes a nation state is either the citizens, or its sovereign authorities.

I guess you believe in the latter?

It's both.
The civilians there don't have to be forced out because they could become State citizens.
BloodBird
The Crucible.
#115 - 2013-04-06 20:44:27 UTC
Xindi Kraid wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:
Xindi Kraid wrote:
I never said anything about casting anyone out of their home. I don't have any issues with the civilians there; I just don't think the Federation deserves any claim to the planet.

Please do not take my statements out of context.


Of course, it depends mostly if one considers that what constitutes a nation state is either the citizens, or its sovereign authorities.

I guess you believe in the latter?

It's both.
The civilians there don't have to be forced out because they could become State citizens.


...

Wow... just wow.
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#116 - 2013-04-06 22:38:55 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
Because while you sit down, they prepare their next attack.
We must strike first!

I think you must be mentally handicapped if you can't see the obvious hypocricy in this statement.

Oh wait, everyone knows you're mentally handicapped anyway.


Many good people are mentally handicapped, sir. There's no shame in it. You use it as an insult, sir, and I wish that you wouldn't.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#117 - 2013-04-07 03:11:54 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:

It wont, because the State wont be getting another Leviathan in low orbit.

Why it that? Are you gonna stop a titan by yourself? Stand in its way maybe?

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#118 - 2013-04-07 03:14:17 UTC
Scherezad wrote:

Many good people are mentally handicapped, sir. There's no shame in it. You use it as an insult, sir, and I wish that you wouldn't.

Unfortunately, haani, this man comes here only to insult, by any means and words possible. I have given him several chances to start a meaningful conversation, but so far he has failed all the times.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#119 - 2013-04-07 04:14:57 UTC
BloodBird wrote:
Xindi Kraid wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:
Xindi Kraid wrote:
I never said anything about casting anyone out of their home. I don't have any issues with the civilians there; I just don't think the Federation deserves any claim to the planet.

Please do not take my statements out of context.


Of course, it depends mostly if one considers that what constitutes a nation state is either the citizens, or its sovereign authorities.

I guess you believe in the latter?

It's both.
The civilians there don't have to be forced out because they could become State citizens.


...

Wow... just wow.


Perhaps you would care to use actually sentences?

To your question: It is the government that holds the sovereignty and interacts with other nations, but it exists to govern and provide for its citizens, so both constitute a nation state.

As for Caldari Prime, while the Gallente living on the surface may have had a hard time living under the anti-Gallente policies of Heth, they still effectively lived in the State since the planet was reclaimed. There have been Gallente living in Caldari space, and they have, in-time been able to even become citizens. I will concede that a change in sovereignty does require a decision of whether the ties to the community or the nation are stronger, so some Gallente may want to move to another planet still in the Federation, but nobody has to be forced to leave as long as they are willing to live under Caldari law and contribute to the community.
Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#120 - 2013-04-07 04:21:37 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:

It wont, because the State wont be getting another Leviathan in low orbit.

Why it that? Are you gonna stop a titan by yourself? Stand in its way maybe?

Don't forget, the invasion took place when CONCORD (and the cyno jammer in Luminaire) was off-line and I believe Tripwire had been sabotaged as well, allowing forces to move right on through into Luminaire. It also took the majority of the Navy. Frankly, we were lucky we were presented with such a golden opportunity, I highly doubt a situation like that will present itself again any time soon, and the alternative is fighting system by system over half a dozen jumps.