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profitability between high and null... i don't get it.
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Raid'En
#1 - 2011-10-30 20:01:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Raid'En
i'm posting here given you're the guys who know about optimizing and so on.

after 6 months living on my reserves from my w-space time, i had to go back farming a bit.
and there's something i really don't get.

i'm currently playing on sov nullsec to do a bit of pvp.
so i did a few haven / sanctum.... and was horrified by how low my wallet was blinking.

i switched alts to high sec, and did some lv4, for about the same DPS (but totally different ships) for the same time.
i checked my wallet and saw... almost the same thing.

i don't get it.

when i was playing on class 4 wormhole, it took for sure some logistics to organize things, and it was sometimes pretty dangerous, but i was earning waaaaay more money, even when counting all the time needed to find new sites to run (time not needed on high and null given new mission/anomalies respawn immediatly)

but sov nullsec also need lots of things to organize to live here, and it's not really a safe place... but i'm earning way less isk
but what i really don't get is that i can earn the same thing on high sec doing lv4 missions... for no organization, and risk free.

sure on null i could see some officier spawn and so find a big loot... but i doubt it happen every day... and so i doubt i can really count it.

the question is ; is it normal that i don't earn more money on nullsec than on high sec ?
cause it makes no sense to me if it's normal.

i heard there was a nerf on null some months ago, but from i understand it's not really linked given i was farming on a system with good truesec.
Kesshisan
#2 - 2011-10-30 20:07:42 UTC
You lived in a wormhole, so it stands to reason that you have scanning experience. Have you tried scanning in null space? Escalations are wonderful.
Mentat Cthulhu
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2011-10-30 20:47:07 UTC
try high sec Incursions...you can make easy 120mil in bounties per hour in complete safety with no need to fight for sov, attend ctas etc
Desudes
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2011-10-30 20:54:38 UTC
There is more to EVE then ISK farming, fyi.

Excuse me, but what the f*ck are you desu?
Raid'En
#5 - 2011-10-30 21:03:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Raid'En
Desudes wrote:
There is more to EVE then ISK farming, fyi.

sure, today i made 6 pvp kills, and launched a few industry jobs, but that's not the point ; this topic is about isk farming.

Mentat Cthulhu wrote:
try high sec Incursions...you can make easy 120mil in bounties per hour in complete safety with no need to fight for sov, attend ctas etc

you can make incursion anywhere, not really the issue here.

the question is about "is it normal i do about the same amount of isk while farming on null and on high ? or i am doing really bad while doing it on null ?"
make no sense if it's the case.
i'm comparing the most coming way of farming on high (lv4 mission), with the most common way of farming on sov nullsec (sanctum), so i am doing it wrong ?
Elsa Nietchize
Doomheim
#6 - 2011-10-30 21:55:15 UTC
hisec is profitable
null isn't
Substantia Nigra
Polaris Rising
Goonswarm Federation
#7 - 2011-10-30 23:00:48 UTC
I am in a very similar situation to you Raid'En, and my experiences are similar.

I moved out of my solo-C4 with a very tidy isk nest egg and have been pottering around hisec, lowsec, and nullsec ... just doing stuff ... since then.

The differential between nullsec and hisec mission running is not as high as I had anticipated, and nullsec carebearing is way more difficult and risky. Running missions as your main isk generator is (IMHO) a very boring way of life, whether in hisec or lowsec or nullsec, but it is a good thing to be doing from time-to-time. I ran incursions for a little while and found them to be almost as tedious as PI ... despite being able to generate decent isk returns.

I'm not much of a PvPer, and what I am doing atm includes:
- hisec missions ... mainly to balance my standings and provide access to all the epic arc agents.
- pirate epic arcs ... most weeks I have one or two pirate arcs on the go, accessed via various alts and clone-jumps into Curse / Venal to do our stuff.
- lvl4 epic arcs ... again, I have one or more of these underway most of the time.
- Nullsec missions ... partly for the increased challenge and partly to bolster pirate corp standings to accommodate my inevitable drops in pirate faction standings.
- Industry ... we still make some profit from ship-building.
- Out-of-game / in-game services. If it was not for our pirate epic arc support package business (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=12973&find=unread) my wallet would probably also be going backwards ... especially with some of the recent purchases for my hisec mission-running tengu.

Having spent much of the last month on-and-off running agent missions in nullsec I have started viewing them as mainly being income support for those that choose to live there for other reasons (the PvP and other nullsec stuff) and not as proportionately profitable alternatives to equivalent hisec missions. It's always fun missioning with hostile combat probes on your DS, and nullsec mission-running offers various other excitements, but it's not proving to be a terribly profitable alternative.

I guess I am almost a 'vet' by now. Hopefully not too bitter and managing to help more than I hinder. I build and sell many things, including large collections of bookmarks.
Nimrod Nemesis
Doomheim
#8 - 2011-10-31 00:11:12 UTC
I live in nullsec (NPC) myself and i'm certainly not here for the isk. I live to pvp in the most un-restricted areas of space with the few other pilots I can call my friends. I don't find it terribly satisfying that empire bears can mission their way to a nearly risk-free fortune, but as a nullsec resident who never sees anything of these pubbies (save their cheap goods being exported to my station from time to time) I have got a laundry list of things I find more important to gripe about.
Goose99
#9 - 2011-10-31 01:52:15 UTC
Elsa Nietchize wrote:
hisec is profitable
null isn't


Your sov, can i haz?Cool
Substantia Nigra
Polaris Rising
Goonswarm Federation
#10 - 2011-10-31 02:05:11 UTC
Nimrod Nemesis wrote:
I live in nullsec (NPC) myself and i'm certainly not here for the isk.


Ummm, so why would someone in that enviable situation begrudge other people choosing to play eve in some other way, and make lots of isk if that's their thing?

I have no problem with people choosing to play pvp in nullsec, so why would they be unhappy that I choose some other thing to do?

It just strikes me as odd that some people get upset at others wanting to do things differently. When I first engaged with eve that was one of its main attractions to me (along with the whole sci fi internet spaceship theme) ... the whole 'sandbox' thing. I love being able to mine ice one day, harvest 'melteds' from sleepers the next, build some T2 ships later in the day, sell stuff in jita the following day, mission in emolgranlan soon afterwards, then hop into curse to taunt some wannabe PvPers, then jump off to mission in X-7OMU, and finish by checking that all the pirate-arc-kit contracts are uptodate.

I guess this means I am never gonna be expert at any one thing, but it does sadden me a little to see people take a uni-dimensional view of their life in eve. There is so much to do, yet so many choose to complain rather than get out there and try all that different stuff.

Nimrod Nemesis wrote:
... in the most un-restricted areas of space with the few other pilots ...


That's great. Good on you.

Nimrod Nemesis wrote:
... I have got a laundry list of things I find more important to gripe about.


Go for it. I reckon there's a large collection of people who'd love you to air your laundry list, and will encourage and sympathise with you.

Me? I think I'll go try my hand at something new ... mebbe some nullsec plexes. Catch me if you can. This guy did :-)

I guess I am almost a 'vet' by now. Hopefully not too bitter and managing to help more than I hinder. I build and sell many things, including large collections of bookmarks.
Shaotuk
Sin City Enterprises
#11 - 2011-10-31 05:41:13 UTC
Hrmm...

SOV Nullsec: ~15-20mil per tic running sanctums
Highsec: ~5-10 mil per tic running lvl 4's
Dors Venabily
United Starbase Systems
#12 - 2011-10-31 09:14:37 UTC
I think you must be doing something wrong.

Never got less money or not even close with High sec lvl 4s compared to nullsec.

Hell even properly chained belt ratting is going to give you more then lvl 4's.
So either you are trolling and have some agenda of the type nerf lvl4s move them to lowsec or you are doing something wrong that created the inefficiency.

Loots and Salvage in null is much better since the rats are of higher class.

If there is something that is stupidly overpowered as far as income in high sec it is the incursions.
Seriously those should get buffed a bit and moved all to low sec.But that is only my opinion.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#13 - 2011-10-31 11:49:35 UTC
Raid'En wrote:
Ask


There are a lot of profitable stuff to do, one of them is to build in high sec and then sell in in null.

Cyno alt

Jump freighter

NPC station or friends/corp/alliance Station/pos

Make 150 to 500% profits

You can also buy in high sec and sell in null, at less profit but well it's not like 5 to 10% in high sec.
King Rothgar
Deadly Solutions
#14 - 2011-10-31 12:10:18 UTC
Anoms have 4 advantages over missions: you don't have to change systems, you don't have to dock, bigger spawn size and bigger bounty per npc. If you can't make more isk with those advantages then your problem is a lack of dps/tank. If you're warping out constantly, you remove three of the advantages since they revolve around being able to stay put instead of moving around. If it's a lack of dps, you just haven't reached a point yet where the time in moving around plays a significant role in isk generation.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say you're using a drake or a low dps tengu. To get the most out of missions or anoms, you should be able to apply no less than 1000 dps on targets at 50km. A good setup will be pumping out 1300-1500 dps at 60km+. Obviously drone travel times need to be considered but they can be micromanaged to negate most of their travel time issues so long as npc spawn points are reasonably predictable.

[u]Fireworks and snowballs are great, but what I really want is a corpse launcher.[/u]
Raid'En
#15 - 2011-10-31 12:35:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Raid'En
i'm not trolling, i don't get how to make more money on null than on high, and i consider it ridiculous, so i'm asking where the problem is.
maybe it's me, maybe it's gameplay.
and i have no reason to ask for a nerf on high, if i had to do somthing i would ask for a buff on null :P

@Tanya Powers : I'm talking rats here, industry don't count. you don't compare rats on high sec and industry/trade on nullsec.
i'm well aware that there are opportunity on nulsec for trading, but i want to stay on the rat subject on this topic.

Dors Venabily wrote:

Loots and Salvage in null is much better since the rats are of higher class.

well i tried 2 times, but +-3m loot is a waste of time...

King Rothgar wrote:
Anoms have 4 advantages over missions: you don't have to change systems, you don't have to dock, bigger spawn size and bigger bounty per npc. If you can't make more isk with those advantages then your problem is a lack of dps/tank. If you're warping out constantly, you remove three of the advantages since they revolve around being able to stay put instead of moving around. If it's a lack of dps, you just haven't reached a point yet where the time in moving around plays a significant role in isk generation.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say you're using a drake or a low dps tengu. To get the most out of missions or anoms, you should be able to apply no less than 1000 dps on targets at 50km. A good setup will be pumping out 1300-1500 dps at 60km+. Obviously drone travel times need to be considered but they can be micromanaged to negate most of their travel time issues so long as npc spawn points are reasonably predictable.

i had for sure less than 1300 dps ...
but my high sec setup was not done at all for small ships, so i'm pretty sure i was losing more time due to wrong fitting on high than null...
true that i was losing lots of time traveling on the nullsec ano however.

edit :
also i was talking complexes with my corpies, and they don't seems exceptionnal given the time to find one, and the time+difficulty/reward ratio... what do you think about that ?
Sandrestal
Pakistani Taxi Drivers
#16 - 2011-10-31 13:32:17 UTC
Kesshisan wrote:
Have you tried scanning in null space? Escalations are wonderful.


I've done escalations any number of times all the way to the end. Other than bounties, there were no drops and, when factoring in travel time, did I see anything wonderful. Add up all the time spent scanning and finding nothing because other peeps already got the site, and indeed....lvl 4 high sec missions can earn same amount over time.
Sandrestal
Pakistani Taxi Drivers
#17 - 2011-10-31 13:37:42 UTC
Dors Venabily wrote:
Hell even properly chained belt ratting is going to give you more then lvl 4's.
So either you are trolling and have some agenda of the type nerf lvl4s move them to lowsec or you are doing something wrong that created the inefficiency.


By the time you get a good chain built up, the time spent killing off worthless rats has to be factored in. Then of course someone comes along and starts ratting in your belt...then what?

Dors Venabily wrote:
Loots and Salvage in null is much better since the rats are of higher class.


I've looted in Gurista space, both havens and Sanctums, and stopped because the loot/salvage wasn't worth the time.
Sandrestal
Pakistani Taxi Drivers
#18 - 2011-10-31 13:43:22 UTC
King Rothgar wrote:
Anoms have 4 advantages over missions: you don't have to change systems, you don't have to dock, bigger spawn size and bigger bounty per npc. If you can't make more isk with those advantages then your problem is a lack of dps/tank. If you're warping out constantly, you remove three of the advantages since they revolve around being able to stay put instead of moving around. If it's a lack of dps, you just haven't reached a point yet where the time in moving around plays a significant role in isk generation.


You forget the disadvantages. Sanctums were nerfed. Everyone and his brother are looking for anoms. One red in a cloaky ship will prevent you from both ratting and doing anoms (unless you are stupid and want to run the risk of a BO's gang landing on you. While lvl 4 missions won't earn you as much as a really good anom, you can do as many lvl 4 high sec missions as you want without interference.
Raid'En
#19 - 2011-10-31 14:01:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Raid'En
Sandrestal wrote:
I've done escalations any number of times all the way to the end. Other than bounties, there were no drops and, when factoring in travel time, did I see anything wonderful. Add up all the time spent scanning and finding nothing because other peeps already got the site.

that's what i fear.

Sandrestal wrote:
You forget the disadvantages. Sanctums were nerfed. Everyone and his brother are looking for anoms. One red in a cloaky ship will prevent you from both ratting and doing anoms (unless you are stupid and want to run the risk of a BO's gang landing on you. While lvl 4 missions won't earn you as much as a really good anom, you can do as many lvl 4 high sec missions as you want without interference.

i do my farming on a peaceful system without red, and where there is enough anomalies for everyone most of the time. so not really a problem here.
Nimrod Nemesis
Doomheim
#20 - 2011-10-31 14:57:09 UTC
Substantia Nigra wrote:

Ummm, so why would someone in that enviable situation begrudge other people choosing to play eve in some other way, and make lots of isk if that's their thing?


I don't, but i'm suggesting that, if that is OP's goal, he need not pine for NPC nullsec to be re-designed with his wallet in mind. There are plenty of other places where one can become isk-rich with much less effort.

Substantia Nigra wrote:

I have no problem with people choosing to play pvp in nullsec, so why would they be unhappy that I choose some other thing to do?


If nullsec were for isk-grinding and not pvp, you'd have a useful juxtaposition there, but that isn't the case. NPC nullsec is -clearly- a place intended for unrestricted pvp without the hassles (or rewards) of sov. space and it's upgrades.

Substantia Nigra wrote:

It just strikes me as odd that some people get upset at others wanting to do things differently.


I think you missed my point. I'm not upset with the OP. I just think opportunities to make isk are already around and there is no reason to taint these regions of space in question with lucrative isk-faucets.

Substantia Nigra wrote:

I guess this means I am never gonna be expert at any one thing, but it does sadden me a little to see people take a uni-dimensional view of their life in eve. There is so much to do, yet so many choose to complain rather than get out there and try all that different stuff.


Uni-dimensional? No, I make enough isk to support myself in npc 0.0. I'm primarily concerned with pvp, yes, but it isn't all i'm capable of understanding. You and the OP might want to complain that there isn't enough isk to be made there or that it's a trajedy you can't be as rich as some incursion runner, but I really don't care. As I said, there are plenty of places to make your fortune, we don't need every region of space to be as lucrative as possible so you can amass a useless fortune of space-bucks regardless of where you are.

If your heart's desire is to be space-rich with little or no risk, go to Jita or join an incursion flogging corp. Just don't beg CCP to tarnish regions designed with pvp in mind because you are obsessed with isk.
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