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An open question to CCP about AFK mining.

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fukier
Gallente Federation
#101 - 2013-04-05 19:25:34 UTC
Psychotic Monk wrote:
I would like to point out that there was an issue not long ago where players in COSMOS sites would grab a Domi, drop sentry drones, target each drone with a remote armor rep and walk away, letting the drones kill whatever they killed for the entire day. CCP decided it was an exploit.

This issue seems fairly similar to that one.



how so?

sentries have no ammo and can shoot all day long...

mining lazors cant...

hint its called a cargo hold...
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
Dave Stark
#102 - 2013-04-05 19:27:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
La Nariz wrote:

That depends you can feel free to debate what the original intended gameplay of trading, moonmining and other activities in another thread. This one is for debating the gray area around AFK mining.


You still have yet to prove there is a gray area around afk mining or that afk mining permits one to gain isk at an accellerated rate. So really, until that is accomplished, we can bring any factor we wish to this debate.


i don't quite think you understand what the OP has done.

he's made an absurd statement to get responses. it has worked, we're at page 6 while debating afk mining, which is all he really wanted.

you know a list of facts and well documented sources would have been ignored.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#103 - 2013-04-05 19:29:04 UTC
Psychotic Monk wrote:
I would like to point out that there was an issue not long ago where players in COSMOS sites would grab a Domi, drop sentry drones, target each drone with a remote armor rep and walk away, letting the drones kill whatever they killed for the entire day. CCP decided it was an exploit.

This issue seems fairly similar to that one.

There is actually a key difference between AFK mining and that activity. The AFK Domi setup was considered an exploit due to the fact that there were no ingame limitations that could limit the amount of gain which could be had from an initial set of inputs. AFK mining on the other hand has at the very least a limit of cargo capacity which guarantees that any 1 input has a maximum possible return.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#104 - 2013-04-05 19:29:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
La Nariz wrote:
Are we getting into pedantry here?
No, accuracy.
If you want to change the scenario so that player B simply plays longer than player A, then of course he's going to end up with more minerals — he played for longer at the same rate. The fact that A turned into drooling wreck by the constant drone of the lasers while B chose to make popcorn and remain sane instead doesn't mean that B is getting anything at an accelerated rate.

Quote:
Which means the rate is still accelerated compared to regular game play.
…except that there is nothing accelerated about the rate — he's just playing longer.
If A spends 4 time units to get 4 volume units, and B spends 8 time units to get 8 volume units, at what rates do the two players get their stuff?

Quote:
Botting would insinuate they are using a program, if the term botting is being expanded to AFK mining then the case is already solved.
…and by suggesting that B is able to get more for less interaction, you are saying that he's botting because if he aren't, the scenario you're describing doesn't take place — B simply earns the same as A at the same rate as A, or he plays twice as long as A and thus accumulate twice as much stuff as A (still at the same rate as A), and either way, he's not getting anything at an accelerated rate.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#105 - 2013-04-05 19:30:43 UTC
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
La Nariz wrote:

That depends you can feel free to debate what the original intended gameplay of trading, moonmining and other activities in another thread. This one is for debating the gray area around AFK mining.


You still have yet to prove there is a gray area around afk mining or that afk mining permits one to gain isk at an accellerated rate. So really, until that is accomplished, we can bring any factor we wish to this debate.


You are incorrect I have highlighted a gray area in the EULA in the OP and am asking for CCP clarification.

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Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#106 - 2013-04-05 19:32:39 UTC
No More Heroes wrote:
GetSirrus wrote:
oh really and how much player activity is behind moon mining?


I spent much of last summer and fall helping my alliance do some moon mining

By capturing a little region called Tribute

and Vale of the Silent

all the while defending moons in Venal


You also "aquired" the belts in Tribute and Vale of the Silent with the same man hours and you defended the belts in Venal. That fact that this is overlooked does not mean it can avoided. It's definately not the miner's fault if the ressource he's gathering is seen as unworthy to fight for like moons are. If they were worth the same, you would not mention the time it takes to conquer/defend moons in null because it would be irrevelent since it would be shared.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#107 - 2013-04-05 19:33:26 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
You are incorrect I have highlighted a gray area in the EULA in the OP and am asking for CCP clarification.
Not particularly, no.
I Love Boobies
All Hail Boobies
#108 - 2013-04-05 19:34:06 UTC
Harvesting Moon Goo is the ultimate AFK mining. Dunno what the OP is complaining about, with the alliance he is in and so on. Blink
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#109 - 2013-04-05 19:34:15 UTC
Tippia wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Are we getting into pedantry here?
No, accuracy.
If you want to change the scenario so that player B simply plays longer than player A, then of course he's going to end up with more minerals — he played for longer at the same rate. The fact that A turned into drooling wreck by the constant drone of the lasers while B chose to make popcorn and remain sane instead doesn't mean that B is getting anything at an accelerated rate.

Quote:
Which means the rate is still accelerated compared to regular game play.
…except that there is nothing accelerated about the rate — he's just playing longer.

Quote:
Botting would insinuate they are using a program, if the term botting is being expanded to AFK mining then the case is already solved.
…and by suggesting that B is able to get more for less interaction, you are saying that he's botting because if he aren't, the scenario you're describing doesn't take place — B simply earns the same as A at the same rate as A, or he plays twice as long as A and thus accumulate twice as much stuff as A (still at the same rate as A), and either way, he's not getting anything at an accelerated rate.


Then I guess by your definition there that means AFK mining = botting. Player B is literally getting more while investing the same time as player A which means player B's rate will be accelerated when compared to player A who is playing via ordinary play. The EULA specifically mentions "other patterns of behavior" which does cover AFK mining.

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#110 - 2013-04-05 19:38:17 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Then I guess by your definition there that means AFK mining = botting.
Nope. That's your definition.
My definition is that AFK mining = being at the keyboard when you need to — a thoroughly ordinary requirement for all kinds of timed activities.

Quote:
Player B is literally getting more while investing the same time as player A
Nope. Player B is getting more by investing more time. There is zero difference in rate.

Quote:
The EULA specifically mentions "other patterns of behavior" which does cover AFK mining.
Nope, since AFK mining does not fulfil any of the qualifications listed — it does not facilitate the acquisition of anything; it doesn't do it at an accelerated rate; and there is nothing extraordinary about waiting for a timer to count down so you can restart it.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#111 - 2013-04-05 19:40:28 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Tippia wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Are we getting into pedantry here?
No, accuracy.
If you want to change the scenario so that player B simply plays longer than player A, then of course he's going to end up with more minerals — he played for longer at the same rate. The fact that A turned into drooling wreck by the constant drone of the lasers while B chose to make popcorn and remain sane instead doesn't mean that B is getting anything at an accelerated rate.

Quote:
Which means the rate is still accelerated compared to regular game play.
…except that there is nothing accelerated about the rate — he's just playing longer.

Quote:
Botting would insinuate they are using a program, if the term botting is being expanded to AFK mining then the case is already solved.
…and by suggesting that B is able to get more for less interaction, you are saying that he's botting because if he aren't, the scenario you're describing doesn't take place — B simply earns the same as A at the same rate as A, or he plays twice as long as A and thus accumulate twice as much stuff as A (still at the same rate as A), and either way, he's not getting anything at an accelerated rate.


Then I guess by your definition there that means AFK mining = botting. Player B is literally getting more while investing the same time as player A which means player B's rate will be accelerated when compared to player A who is playing via ordinary play. The EULA specifically mentions "other patterns of behavior" which does cover AFK mining.

How are the patterns of play different? The patterns of play only concern input into the client. So long as a player is providing that input it's not botting. Additionally since the same inputs are being used by both the AFK and ATK players the pattern is the same.

Time investment on a player level is irrelevant. They both perform the same ingame actions at the same rate with player B having their character active longer thus reaping more reward. If you were trying to argue that playing longer was somehow an exploit you could use this argument, but trying to equate AFK'ing to botting doesn't work with this reasoning.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#112 - 2013-04-05 19:41:41 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
La Nariz wrote:

That depends you can feel free to debate what the original intended gameplay of trading, moonmining and other activities in another thread. This one is for debating the gray area around AFK mining.


You still have yet to prove there is a gray area around afk mining or that afk mining permits one to gain isk at an accellerated rate. So really, until that is accomplished, we can bring any factor we wish to this debate.


You are incorrect I have highlighted a gray area in the EULA in the OP and am asking for CCP clarification.


It's only a gray area if they do aquire currency at an accelerated peace. It does not because there is literraly no difference in the amount aquired if you were to look at your laser or not. You can let the laser cycle while at the keyboard just like you can let them cycle and go take a dump, make a sammich or post on SA. That part of the EULA is there to block bot as it can amke more action that require being at the keyboard such as docking or moving the content of the ore bay to another container, be it a ship or a can. This cannot be done AFK unless there is a bot running. The bot is gaining more than a regular pattern of play because he does not have to do the action himself. The afk is only letting the action finish.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#113 - 2013-04-05 19:44:49 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Time investment on a player level is irrelevant. They both perform the same ingame actions at the same rate with player B having their character active longer thus reaping more reward. If you were trying to argue that playing longer was somehow an exploit you could use this argument, but trying to equate AFK'ing to botting doesn't work with this reasoning.
^^ This.
Player A's decision to babysit his mining ship for whatever reason does not make Player B's decision not to do that into something prohibited.
Klymer
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#114 - 2013-04-05 19:46:08 UTC
I actually feel bad for the rest of GS now, that OP was just embarrassing.
Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#115 - 2013-04-05 19:47:55 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Georgina Parmala wrote:
Rock just takes 10 seconds of attention per account every 10?


4, or 6 if you're lucky.
what the hell are you going to do in 6 mins? not a lot.

not when you compare it to ice's 20-30 mins.

You're thinking of at the speaker mining, which is perfectly doable while at work or watching TV for near 100% uptime.

Just because the strip stops doesn't mean you have to immediately run to start it again. It's afk mining, remember? It can be as simple as restarting strips every commercial break. I'll still fill a barge with ~5 mil worth of goods in under 45 min. And there's no one to bump or gank me. Hell, most days, the system I choose to mine, there's not another soul in the belt. I also get my pick of the high-yield variety rock. On an alt that lives in that system with minimal training (barge 3, yield doesn't matter because no 100% miner uptime, no ice training), ready to suck rock when I have a few spare minutes to warp out to a belt. I do it while, for example, playing with the kids - occasionally taking 30 seconds to step away and reset lasers.

I also have perfect refine at a station in system, when my main swings by to pick up the spoils. There are sufficient high range buy orders around for trit and pye that I don't even need to haul.

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Dave Stark
#116 - 2013-04-05 19:50:05 UTC
Georgina Parmala wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Georgina Parmala wrote:
Rock just takes 10 seconds of attention per account every 10?


4, or 6 if you're lucky.
what the hell are you going to do in 6 mins? not a lot.

not when you compare it to ice's 20-30 mins.

You're thinking of at the speaker mining, which is perfectly doable while at work or watching TV for near 100% uptime.

Just because the strip stops doesn't mean you have to immediately run to start it again. It's afk mining, remember? It can be as simple as restarting strips every commercial break. I'll still fill a barge with ~5 mil worth of goods in under 45 min. And there's no one to bump or gank me. Hell, most days, the system I choose to mine, there's not another soul in the belt. I also get my pick of the high-yield variety rock. On an alt that lives in that system with minimal training (barge 3, yield doesn't matter because no 100% miner uptime, no ice training), ready to suck rock when I have a few spare minutes to warp out to a belt. I do it while, for example, playing with the kids - occasionally taking 30 seconds to step away and reset lasers.

I also have perfect refine at a station in system, when my main swings by to pick up the spoils. There are sufficient high range buy orders around for trit and pye that I don't even need to haul.


not sure if you have no idea what you're talking about, or you're just a mong.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#117 - 2013-04-05 19:50:29 UTC
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
The rate is accelerated because the player is gaining mining cycles while not actually playing EVE. So say we have an AFK miner and an ATK miner. Both spend 4 hours mining but, the AFK miner spends 4 hours AFK mining. Since AFK mining is not actually playing EVE they spent no time actually playing EVE and did something analogous to botting. This means the AFK miner took in twice what the ATK miner did in the same amount of time spent playing EVE.


4 hours is 4 hours, doesn't matter how much time is spent at the keyboard or not. both players spend the exact same amount of time interacting with the game regardless of whether or not they are in front of the keyboard watching the lasers cycle or not.

the guy at the keyboard is "playing" as much eve as the guy not at the keyboard.

weren't there similar whines about amarr ships and structures at one point? i vaguely recall it when i first started playing but i never took much notice since i was in my osprey chewing veld rocks.


I disagree it does matter how much time is spent at the keyboard. The guy not at the keyboard is not playing the game at all and should not benefit from a potential gray area in the EULA. You can't play EVE but ~not be playing~ EVE.


So you support a trade system like everquest where a trader must be logged in for their sale and buy orders to be active, and such traders would have to be present at the keyboard the whole time?

A character making a titan must be present at the keyboard and never log out while the titan is being constructed? Moon mining would require someone at the pos, logged in at all times?

Basically, since you are advocating people must be present to benefit in game, any passive activity either requires one has no job and plays from the toilet forgoing basic hygiene or in the least having a waterproof laptop or such activity should provide no benefit while away. Hmmm... Let's try it. Just blow up all the titans, moon goo, modules, etc that were produce or sokd while people were afk. Great way to rebalance the whole game and make it worthless.



Not that I think he is saying that... but it would definitely lend credit to being hardcore that's for sure. Would also eliminate a lot of the problems many threads are complaining about. Not to mention making risk vs reward a reality. In all elements.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#118 - 2013-04-05 19:55:32 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:



Not that I think he is saying that... but it would definitely lend credit to being hardcore that's for sure. Would also eliminate a lot of the problems many threads are complaining about. Not to mention making risk vs reward a reality. In all elements.


Risk vs reward would be exactly the same. Time vs reward would be the one thing changing.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#119 - 2013-04-05 19:57:57 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
No More Heroes wrote:
GetSirrus wrote:
oh really and how much player activity is behind moon mining?


I spent much of last summer and fall helping my alliance do some moon mining

By capturing a little region called Tribute

and Vale of the Silent

all the while defending moons in Venal


You also "aquired" the belts in Tribute and Vale of the Silent with the same man hours and you defended the belts in Venal. That fact that this is overlooked does not mean it can avoided. It's definately not the miner's fault if the ressource he's gathering is seen as unworthy to fight for like moons are. If they were worth the same, you would not mention the time it takes to conquer/defend moons in null because it would be irrevelent since it would be shared.



That other moon mining threadnaught says otherwise =(

But on a seperate note... when those moons were taken and defended... how much moon mining did that defender do? Any? How did you accomplish that multi task from such far off distances?

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#120 - 2013-04-05 20:02:26 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:



Not that I think he is saying that... but it would definitely lend credit to being hardcore that's for sure. Would also eliminate a lot of the problems many threads are complaining about. Not to mention making risk vs reward a reality. In all elements.


Risk vs reward would be exactly the same. Time vs reward would be the one thing changing.



Except the rate at which those titans were built would require a LOT more effort on the parts of the alliances to defend them at the price of all those people needing to log in, not just for reinforce timers while they play on different pilots.

It would require a TON more time (yep time) and at keyboard effort and attention to accomplish it all. That time is the risk in the game of timers.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.