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An open question to CCP about AFK mining.

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Rhivre
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#81 - 2013-04-05 19:03:42 UTC
La Nariz wrote:


My problem is that player B is gaining double the benefit of playing 4 hours via AFK mining.


what ship is player B flying that he can hold 4 hours of rocks/ice in, and where can I get one?

Remember, we are not talking about bots or macros, so, your claim is, he is at the ice-field for 4 hours non-stop mining, or in a belt for 4 hours.....

My mack fills in about 30 mins with normal ore...so, at best an AFK miner gets 30 minutes extra mining.

Fluffy Bunny Pic!

Dave Stark
#82 - 2013-04-05 19:05:10 UTC
Georgina Parmala wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
also let's not kid ourselves, if npc rats were worth 10x as much because they took 10x as long to kill (so they keep the same isk/time as they do now) ratters would all fly amarr ships and go afk too.

path of least resistance and all.

besides, the effort of afk mining is totally justified by it's isk/hour.

If I calculate my at the keyboard time into isk per hour, I make north of 100mil/hour afk mining rock in high sec. The efficiency goes up with more than one account. Or more than a week of training to barely sit in a retriever.



so? that's a completely irrelevant isk/hour ratio. it simply doesn't exist because you didn't make 100m isk in 1 hour of time.
Lady Areola Fappington
#83 - 2013-04-05 19:06:54 UTC
I personally would be happy to see auto-repeat turned off for mining lasers, along with a client logout timer.

Fixes AFK mining, and AFK cloak whines all at once!

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide
Dave Stark
#84 - 2013-04-05 19:09:16 UTC
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
I personally would be happy to see auto-repeat turned off for mining lasers, along with a client logout timer.

Fixes AFK mining, and AFK cloak whines all at once!


agreed, remove auto repeat for all modules.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#85 - 2013-04-05 19:10:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
La Nariz wrote:
fukier wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. .


i left in the only phrase that counts... as afk minning will result in zero gain over regular mining its A ok!


Player A mines for 4 hours and collects their minerals, player B mines for 4 hours and collects their minerals then goes AFK and leaves their client to mine for 4 more hours. Both players played the game for the same amount of time yet player B took in
…the exact same amount of minerals as A, since his barge fills up and then the ship just sits there doing nothing. He also did it at the exact same rate as A, and using normal gameplay, so it does in no way, shape, or form violate the rule you're referencing.

Quote:
What you described in this and the other post isn't AFK mining, you're interacting by playing the market and chatting with others.
…which only leads to one conclusion: ATK mining produces more income than AFK mining, which belies your entire premise.

What you're describing isn't AFK mining — it's botting, which breaks the EULA long before we even get to the subclause about accelerated acquisition.
Lady Ayeipsia
BlueWaffe
#86 - 2013-04-05 19:11:06 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
The rate is accelerated because the player is gaining mining cycles while not actually playing EVE. So say we have an AFK miner and an ATK miner. Both spend 4 hours mining but, the AFK miner spends 4 hours AFK mining. Since AFK mining is not actually playing EVE they spent no time actually playing EVE and did something analogous to botting. This means the AFK miner took in twice what the ATK miner did in the same amount of time spent playing EVE.


4 hours is 4 hours, doesn't matter how much time is spent at the keyboard or not. both players spend the exact same amount of time interacting with the game regardless of whether or not they are in front of the keyboard watching the lasers cycle or not.

the guy at the keyboard is "playing" as much eve as the guy not at the keyboard.

weren't there similar whines about amarr ships and structures at one point? i vaguely recall it when i first started playing but i never took much notice since i was in my osprey chewing veld rocks.


I disagree it does matter how much time is spent at the keyboard. The guy not at the keyboard is not playing the game at all and should not benefit from a potential gray area in the EULA. You can't play EVE but ~not be playing~ EVE.


So you support a trade system like everquest where a trader must be logged in for their sale and buy orders to be active, and such traders would have to be present at the keyboard the whole time?

A character making a titan must be present at the keyboard and never log out while the titan is being constructed? Moon mining would require someone at the pos, logged in at all times?

Basically, since you are advocating people must be present to benefit in game, any passive activity either requires one has no job and plays from the toilet forgoing basic hygiene or in the least having a waterproof laptop or such activity should provide no benefit while away. Hmmm... Let's try it. Just blow up all the titans, moon goo, modules, etc that were produce or sokd while people were afk. Great way to rebalance the whole game and make it worthless.
GetSirrus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#87 - 2013-04-05 19:11:51 UTC
oh really and how much player activity is behind moon mining?

remove barges then more pilots wont be afk, and will be flying combat ships in a pvp game - problem solved.
Imperator Zeal
Doomheim
#88 - 2013-04-05 19:14:04 UTC
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
I personally would be happy to see auto-repeat turned off for mining lasers, along with a client logout timer.

Fixes AFK mining, and AFK cloak whines all at once!


This would fix a ton of latency, lag, overpopulation of certain zones, etc. this is brilliant and CCP should do this right away, log you out after 15-20 minutes
Psychotic Monk
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#89 - 2013-04-05 19:14:21 UTC
I would like to point out that there was an issue not long ago where players in COSMOS sites would grab a Domi, drop sentry drones, target each drone with a remote armor rep and walk away, letting the drones kill whatever they killed for the entire day. CCP decided it was an exploit.

This issue seems fairly similar to that one.

Belligerent Undesirables Selling Griefer Immunity
Trendon Evenstar
Olympus Gods
#90 - 2013-04-05 19:15:48 UTC
GetSirrus wrote:
oh really and how much player activity is behind moon mining?


Literally thousands of player-hours and hundreds of billions of isk have gone into capturing and defending moons






nice try though
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#91 - 2013-04-05 19:16:40 UTC
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
The rate is accelerated because the player is gaining mining cycles while not actually playing EVE. So say we have an AFK miner and an ATK miner. Both spend 4 hours mining but, the AFK miner spends 4 hours AFK mining. Since AFK mining is not actually playing EVE they spent no time actually playing EVE and did something analogous to botting. This means the AFK miner took in twice what the ATK miner did in the same amount of time spent playing EVE.


4 hours is 4 hours, doesn't matter how much time is spent at the keyboard or not. both players spend the exact same amount of time interacting with the game regardless of whether or not they are in front of the keyboard watching the lasers cycle or not.

the guy at the keyboard is "playing" as much eve as the guy not at the keyboard.

weren't there similar whines about amarr ships and structures at one point? i vaguely recall it when i first started playing but i never took much notice since i was in my osprey chewing veld rocks.


I disagree it does matter how much time is spent at the keyboard. The guy not at the keyboard is not playing the game at all and should not benefit from a potential gray area in the EULA. You can't play EVE but ~not be playing~ EVE.


So you support a trade system like everquest where a trader must be logged in for their sale and buy orders to be active, and such traders would have to be present at the keyboard the whole time?

A character making a titan must be present at the keyboard and never log out while the titan is being constructed? Moon mining would require someone at the pos, logged in at all times?

Basically, since you are advocating people must be present to benefit in game, any passive activity either requires one has no job and plays from the toilet forgoing basic hygiene or in the least having a waterproof laptop or such activity should provide no benefit while away. Hmmm... Let's try it. Just blow up all the titans, moon goo, modules, etc that were produce or sokd while people were afk. Great way to rebalance the whole game and make it worthless.


That depends you can feel free to debate what the original intended gameplay of trading, moonmining and other activities in another thread. This one is for debating the gray area around AFK mining.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Lady Ayeipsia
BlueWaffe
#92 - 2013-04-05 19:17:57 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
I personally would be happy to see auto-repeat turned off for mining lasers, along with a client logout timer.

Fixes AFK mining, and AFK cloak whines all at once!


agreed, remove auto repeat for all modules.


Oh yeah... The HIC pilots will love watching their bubbles drop once the cycle completes, no more siege or triage mods running for multiple cycles. Heck, even server performance would take a hit in large fleet battles becausr every mod would have to be cycled back on meaning commands constantly sent to the server which have to be processed.

Heck, it would bring a whole new meta game to fights in systems with time dilation. Time your shots so they hit when mods shut off, before they can be reactivated due to dilation.

Do people really just troll this bad or not think thoughts through?
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#93 - 2013-04-05 19:19:08 UTC
Tippia wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
fukier wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. .


i left in the only phrase that counts... as afk minning will result in zero gain over regular mining its A ok!


Player A mines for 4 hours and collects their minerals, player B mines for 4 hours and collects their minerals then goes AFK and leaves their client to mine for 4 more hours. Both players played the game for the same amount of time yet player B took in
…the exact same amount of minerals as A, since his barge fills up and then the ship just sits there doing nothing. He also did it at the exact same rate as A, and using normal gameplay, so it does in no way, shape, or form violate the rule you're referencing.

Quote:
What you described in this and the other post isn't AFK mining, you're interacting by playing the market and chatting with others.
…which only leads to one conclusion: ATK mining produces more income than AFK mining, which belies your entire premise.

What you're describing isn't AFK mining — it's botting, which breaks the EULA long before we even get to the subclause about accelerated acquisition.


Are we getting into pedantry here? Of course the person pays attention for 30 or so seconds to make the cycles start again for another 45 mins of non-interaction. Player B still gets 3 hours and odd minutes worth of mining over player A for virtually nothing. Which means the rate is still accelerated compared to regular game play. Botting would insinuate they are using a program, if the term botting is being expanded to AFK mining then the case is already solved.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Dave Stark
#94 - 2013-04-05 19:19:09 UTC
Psychotic Monk wrote:
I would like to point out that there was an issue not long ago where players in COSMOS sites would grab a Domi, drop sentry drones, target each drone with a remote armor rep and walk away, letting the drones kill whatever they killed for the entire day. CCP decided it was an exploit.

This issue seems fairly similar to that one.


not really. drones acquire their own target and use a completely different set of mechanics to mining ships.
when mining ships start acquiring their own targets and emptying their own cargo, then i'll consider the point.

if you took an amarr ship, and started shooting at a pos, and went afk is that an exploit? because that's essentially the combat equivalent of ice mining.
No More Heroes
Boomer Humor
Snuffed Out
#95 - 2013-04-05 19:19:11 UTC
GetSirrus wrote:
oh really and how much player activity is behind moon mining?


I spent much of last summer and fall helping my alliance do some moon mining

By capturing a little region called Tribute

and Vale of the Silent

all the while defending moons in Venal

.
Dave Stark
#96 - 2013-04-05 19:19:58 UTC
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
I personally would be happy to see auto-repeat turned off for mining lasers, along with a client logout timer.

Fixes AFK mining, and AFK cloak whines all at once!


agreed, remove auto repeat for all modules.


Oh yeah... The HIC pilots will love watching their bubbles drop once the cycle completes, no more siege or triage mods running for multiple cycles. Heck, even server performance would take a hit in large fleet battles becausr every mod would have to be cycled back on meaning commands constantly sent to the server which have to be processed.

Heck, it would bring a whole new meta game to fights in systems with time dilation. Time your shots so they hit when mods shut off, before they can be reactivated due to dilation.

Do people really just troll this bad or not think thoughts through?


i was being flippant, because the idea of removing auto cycling is terrible.
Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#97 - 2013-04-05 19:22:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Georgina Parmala
Dave Stark wrote:

then again afk mining only exists for ice

Nope

Rock just takes 10 seconds of attention per account every 10? minutes until you're full. There isn't even anything to particularly watch for, the game TELLS you when your strip miner stopped so you can come back / tab back in to target a new one.

Edit: And since miner gankers are largely of the same belief as yourself, your risk of getting ganked is practically 0

Science and Trade Institute [STI] is an NPC entity and as such my views do not represent those of the entity or any of its members

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=276984&p=38
Lady Areola Fappington
#98 - 2013-04-05 19:22:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Lady Areola Fappington
Imperator Zeal wrote:

This would fix a ton of latency, lag, overpopulation of certain zones, etc. this is brilliant and CCP should do this right away, log you out after 15-20 minutes


I have no clue why CCP doesn't implement an idle client logout. Somehow, I manage to mine on an alt, while still being active in game. I'm chatting it up with friends, keeping an eye on local, Dscanning...

The only other quick fix I could think of, is escalating rats. Make each wave stronger the longer you sit in-belt, but keep them on the same loot tables to prevent farming. At least it'd force AFK miners to move around some and play the game just a little bit.


Only in EVE, do we have people advocating a playstyle that does not involve actually playing the game.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide
Lady Ayeipsia
BlueWaffe
#99 - 2013-04-05 19:24:24 UTC
La Nariz wrote:

That depends you can feel free to debate what the original intended gameplay of trading, moonmining and other activities in another thread. This one is for debating the gray area around AFK mining.


You still have yet to prove there is a gray area around afk mining or that afk mining permits one to gain isk at an accellerated rate. So really, until that is accomplished, we can bring any factor we wish to this debate.
Dave Stark
#100 - 2013-04-05 19:24:29 UTC
Georgina Parmala wrote:
Rock just takes 10 seconds of attention per account every 10?


4, or 6 if you're lucky.
what the hell are you going to do in 6 mins? not a lot.

not when you compare it to ice's 20-30 mins.