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[Odyssey] Faction Navy Cruisers

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Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#481 - 2013-04-04 19:54:46 UTC
sten mattson wrote:
numbers:

both ships have the maximum amount of turrets (focused medium pulses) fitted with imperial navy multifrequency, 2 heat sinks , and the biggest flight of gallente drones they can carry in their bay (5 hobgoblins for the old , 5 hammerheads for the new)

old nomen: with drones: 521 dps at 6,8k+3,8
without drones: 422 dps

new nomen: with drones: 421 dps at 10,2k+3,8
without drones: 263 dps

my method to find the numbers for the new nomen: create a EFT char with all V except for ammar cruiser , which is at 0, then multiply the dps given by turrets (without drones ofc) with 1,25

discussion:

what i find weird in the case of the nomen is the flat 25% reduction in damage with drones , but 60% reduction without. If they intended the ship to be a kiter , the damage is abysmal , even with close range ammo (and only slightly above 200 dps at 30k with scorch). I also find it weird that for a ship that is supposed to use lazors , has drones represent more than 40% of its potential damage at close range)
It is also not normal that a navy ship would be so ridiculously outgunned by its t1 counterpart.

the only good side of this change is the cap usage , that hasnt changed -despite the loss of the cap reduction bonus- and the range bonus, that doesnt help much at brawling range.

just to put it here: a -7,5% rof reduction per lvl equates to giving a 12% damage bonus per lvl. Giving the nomen only 5% dmg per lvl while taking away one turret is not enough, and boosting the drone bay does not enough to compensate for this loss of damage.

in order for the new nomen to match the old nomen in damage -drones included- the damage bonus needs to be close to 15% per lvl.


what can be done:

since i believe the idea of this change was to keep the cap usage the same but take away the capacitor usage bonus, i dont think it would be wise to add another turret but one way to do this would be to up the damage bonus to 10% per lvl , wich would mean only mean -33% turret damage reduction compared to the old nomen (only -10% with the drones).

EDIT: the numbers were without the damage rig, sorry

Thank you for pointing out flaws like this to the proposed changes, it just underlines my point... I have no problem with the concept of the new NOmen being a kite ship, but it definately needs love for it to actually pull it off successfully.
sten mattson
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#482 - 2013-04-04 20:52:45 UTC  |  Edited by: sten mattson
Deerin wrote:
sten mattson wrote:
numbers:

my method to find the numbers for the new nomen: create a EFT char with all V except for ammar cruiser , which is at 0, then multiply the dps given by turrets (without drones ofc) with 1,25


Herein lies the error. %10 dmg per level = %50 => 1.5


lol stupid me.

my only gripe with the ship now is still the 33% reduction in turret damage, lazors already suffer from close range encounters because of subpar damage and poor tracking. why nerf it further? :(

this is also the fourth ship with the exact same slot layout 5/3/7 (maller , omen , nomen and naug). the amarr need some variation! Are we too afraid to give it another mid slot?

might as well trade a high for a mid on the naug. or that utility high on the nomen for a mid, since you want a kiter , no one is gonna fit a neut there....

IMMA FIRING MA LAZAR!!!
Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#483 - 2013-04-05 03:23:37 UTC
we really dont need another amarr cruiser with a 3 mid layout.

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
Crash Lander
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#484 - 2013-04-05 03:51:29 UTC
The RoF bonus on Omen Navy Issue made this a really fun ship. At level V Cruiser skill with Rapid Firing V this ship fires its pulse lasers like a non stop machine gun.

It also made it an excellent platform for quickly dispatching smaller targets as a RoF bonus minimizes damage overshoot at the expense of increased ammo usage.

Could you consider keeping the RoF bonus while keeping the DPS the same? Otherwise I'm going to miss this unique ship... Cry
Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#485 - 2013-04-05 13:12:06 UTC
So let's see...

Navy Caracal with HAM's has 305 dps and 16.9km range with rage. Goes 1521 m/s with mwd.

Caracal with HAM's + 2 lights has 308 dps and 25.3km range with rage. Goes 1881 m/s with mwd.

I'm not too sure how much that explosion radius bonus helps but so far i don't see much point paying that much premium to get a little more shield hp.

What is this niche that this thing is supposed to fill?
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#486 - 2013-04-05 13:21:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonas Sukarala
Johnson Oramara wrote:
So let's see...

Navy Caracal with HAM's has 305 dps and 16.9km range with rage. Goes 1521 m/s with mwd.

Caracal with HAM's + 2 lights has 308 dps and 25.3km range with rage. Goes 1881 m/s with mwd.

I'm not too sure how much that explosion radius bonus helps but so far i don't see much point paying that much premium to get a little more shield hp.

What is this niche that this thing is supposed to fill?


how about the extra EHP and that exp radius is its anti frig defence like an inbuilt TP

P.S. conflag can only do 7.5km so for HAMs rage to do that range for a high damage close range ammo type is insane!!!!!

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#487 - 2013-04-05 13:27:46 UTC
Johnson Oramara wrote:
So let's see...

Navy Caracal with HAM's has 305 dps and 16.9km range with rage. Goes 1521 m/s with mwd.

Caracal with HAM's + 2 lights has 308 dps and 25.3km range with rage. Goes 1881 m/s with mwd.

I'm not too sure how much that explosion radius bonus helps but so far i don't see much point paying that much premium to get a little more shield hp.

What is this niche that this thing is supposed to fill?


Am guessing you're posting from an alternate reality where math works different.

Navy caracal with rage hams....

337 dps with zero bcus

414 with one

557 with three
Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#488 - 2013-04-05 14:33:56 UTC
Templar Dane wrote:
Johnson Oramara wrote:
So let's see...

Navy Caracal with HAM's has 305 dps and 16.9km range with rage. Goes 1521 m/s with mwd.

Caracal with HAM's + 2 lights has 308 dps and 25.3km range with rage. Goes 1881 m/s with mwd.

I'm not too sure how much that explosion radius bonus helps but so far i don't see much point paying that much premium to get a little more shield hp.

What is this niche that this thing is supposed to fill?


Am guessing you're posting from an alternate reality where math works different.

Navy caracal with rage hams....

337 dps with zero bcus

414 with one

557 with three

Oh yeah, i forgot it was rof but your math lacks the reload times.
Anyway, still not that impressive.
Open Graves
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#489 - 2013-04-05 18:48:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Open Graves
Could we get the Navy versions of the Logi cruisers to stay logi ships and have a new set of Navy cruisers based on the other hulls like the Thorax, Rupture, Moa, and Maller hulls?

I think adding 8 new ships to the game would be very interesting.
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#490 - 2013-04-05 18:52:26 UTC
Open Graves wrote:
Could we get the Navy versions of the Logi cruisers to stay logi ships and have a new set of Navy cruisers based on the other hulls like the Thorax, Rupture, Moa, and Maller hulls?

I think adding 8 new ships to the game would be very interesting.

This, I like, alot, especially since some of them, like the Scythe, are pretty **** poor.
Perihelion Olenard
#491 - 2013-04-05 20:51:06 UTC
Navy ships better be getting their costs reduced if they are not going to be much better than tech 1.
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#492 - 2013-04-05 21:02:14 UTC
Perihelion Olenard wrote:
Navy ships better be getting their costs reduced if they are not going to be much better than tech 1.

That I agree with, since the biggest component to their costs are the BPs... speaking of which, why aren't BP costs part of the factors used to determine insurance values?
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#493 - 2013-04-05 23:17:46 UTC
Will the Navy Faction Scythe, Augorer, Osprey, and Exequeror all have their LP cost brought up from 30k to 45k? Maybe get a blueprint variant as well?
Inkarr Hashur
Skyline Federation
#494 - 2013-04-06 07:01:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Inkarr Hashur
Edit: Ah, forget it. "Big Slicer" is too good to pass up.
Umega
Solis Mensa
#495 - 2013-04-06 07:24:28 UTC
5-5-5 on something that moves like an AF. Any vets of the current scythe know what I mean.. it's like comparing the mach to the rest of its same class in terms of overall mobility. Dual-prop + TD + 90 sig + one of fastest cruisers in game.. now able to completely utalize missiles, in omni fashion rather than only kin. HP buff too boot.. right...

Lord be praised! I honeslty don't care whats happening to the SFI after reading that. The stupidly broken ability of top end speed + missiles + TD is a wrecking ball of opponent frustration. The 90 sig on a cruiser (which is unchanged) isn't something to gloss over with this equation.

Nixor looks silly.. first thought, glass cannon droneboat. But that makes no sense for several reasons. Second thought.. poor man's Gila. Looks fun tho.

Nomen is going to be a sheer beast. That thing looks really scary actually.. it's going to obsolete a lot of ships me thinks, depending on where the price settles. It may become a fleet staple beyond FW.. yeah, I'm seeing that kind of potential.

Elephant in the room.. the ENI...

 Ume-Pro Studios
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#496 - 2013-04-06 07:42:03 UTC
Johnson Oramara wrote:
...I'm not too sure how much that explosion radius bonus helps...
By my calculations, which could be wrong: on average it will increase damage to Destroyers and Frigates by 33%.

The way I see it, which could be wrong: the rate of fire bonus equals a 33% increase in DPS and the Explosion radius adds another 33% increase in DPS against smaller ships. Add a web or two, and things are not going to be pleasant for smaller ships that get too close.

HAM Fury Explosion Radius = 180
Guided Missile Precision = 5
HAM Fury Explosion (effective) Radius = 135

Thrasher Signature Radius = 75
75/135 = 55.5% (Applied)

Slasher Signature Radius = 35
35/135 = 25.9% (Applied)

HAM Fury Explosion (effective after Explosion Radius Bonus) Radius = 101.25

Thrasher
75/101.5 = 73.9% (Applied)

Slasher
35/101.5 = 34.5% (Applied)

Trasher 73.9%/55.5% = 33% increase in applied damage
Slasher 34.5%/25.9% = 33% increase in applied damage

Someone with better math skills will most likely correct my mistakes, but... Blink

Don't underestimate the importance of the Explosion Radius Bonus.
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#497 - 2013-04-06 08:31:51 UTC
Johnson Oramara wrote:
So let's see...

Navy Caracal with HAM's has 305 dps and 16.9km range with rage. Goes 1521 m/s with mwd.

Caracal with HAM's + 2 lights has 308 dps and 25.3km range with rage. Goes 1881 m/s with mwd.

...

What is this niche that this thing is supposed to fill?

Caracal is faster, 50% greater range, and two drones.
Damage = 5 launcher * (25% damage + 1 Ballistic Control Systems)
Effective = 7.5 launchers + two drones

The Navy Caracal is slower and have less range, plus no drones. It does have better Defenses.
Damage = 6 Launchers * (25% rate of fire + 3 Ballistic control Systems)
Effective = 12 Launchers + 33% Damage to smaller ships.

I would think he Navy Caracal role is to get in close and beat the crap out of smaller ships.

The Navy versions damage against Frigates and Destroyers will be on the order of 100% better.

All figures could be wrong. Blink
Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#498 - 2013-04-06 11:47:58 UTC
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Johnson Oramara wrote:
...I'm not too sure how much that explosion radius bonus helps...
By my calculations, which could be wrong: on average it will increase damage to Destroyers and Frigates by 33%.

The way I see it, which could be wrong: the rate of fire bonus equals a 33% increase in DPS and the Explosion radius adds another 33% increase in DPS against smaller ships. Add a web or two, and things are not going to be pleasant for smaller ships that get too close.

HAM Fury Explosion Radius = 180
Guided Missile Precision = 5
HAM Fury Explosion (effective) Radius = 135

Thrasher Signature Radius = 75
75/135 = 55.5% (Applied)

Slasher Signature Radius = 35
35/135 = 25.9% (Applied)

HAM Fury Explosion (effective after Explosion Radius Bonus) Radius = 101.25

Thrasher
75/101.5 = 73.9% (Applied)

Slasher
35/101.5 = 34.5% (Applied)

Trasher 73.9%/55.5% = 33% increase in applied damage
Slasher 34.5%/25.9% = 33% increase in applied damage

Someone with better math skills will most likely correct my mistakes, but... Blink

Don't underestimate the importance of the Explosion Radius Bonus.

Yes, it's important i understand that but i need to see some numbers that include speed factor also... those pesky frigs tend to be usually moving quite fast Lol

Even then i don't see them hitting really anything with mwd on. Let's say a navy slicer is pointing and orbiting you at 18km with mwd on, there's nothing really you can do while every single other t1 and faction cruiser has atleast option for ecm drones...
Sal Landry
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#499 - 2013-04-06 12:12:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Sal Landry
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:

Caracal is faster, 50% greater range, and two drones.
Damage = 5 launcher * (25% damage + 1 Ballistic Control Systems)
Effective = 7.5 launchers + two drones

The Navy Caracal is slower and have less range, plus no drones. It does have better Defenses.
Damage = 6 Launchers * (25% rate of fire + 3 Ballistic control Systems)
Effective = 12 Launchers + 33% Damage to smaller ships.

I would think he Navy Caracal role is to get in close and beat the crap out of smaller ships.

The Navy versions damage against Frigates and Destroyers will be on the order of 100% better.

All figures could be wrong. Blink

The effective launchers are 6.66 for the Caracal and 8 for the NCaracal
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#500 - 2013-04-06 14:37:58 UTC
Sal Landry wrote:

The effective launchers are 6.66 for the Caracal and 8 for the NCaracal
What are they if you include a single Ballistic Control for the standard Caracal and three for the Navy version?