These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Intergalactic Summit

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

FINAL DETAILS OF CALDARI PRIME DMZ ANNOUNCED
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#121 - 2013-04-05 17:36:49 UTC
Fractal Muse wrote:
Anabella Rella wrote:
Svetlana Scarlet wrote:

Better than I feel about a know-nothing Minmatar trying to tell me what I should be doing as a loyal Caldari citizen.


What does the fact that she's Matari have to do with anything? That was a bit of a racist comment. If you want to call Pilot Muse a know-nothing due to her ignorance of your culture, fair enough. The fact that she's Minmatar shouldn't enter into the conversation, however.

I'm beginning to think you Caldari are almost as xenophobic and bigoted as your Amarrian allies based on all the crap I've seen spewed over the IGS lately.

I don't mind the attitude since it is to be expected from some.

What is curious is the defensiveness of the position. I didn't indicate anything that Svetlana Scarlet should be "doing as a loyal Caldari citizen" I merely asked a question as to how they were feeling about the current situation.

To repeat the question since it seems that they may have misunderstood:

Fractal Muse wrote:

How do you feel about Ishukone giving away just under half of your home world?



Confirming that this particular Minmatar knows nothing.
Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#122 - 2013-04-05 17:39:19 UTC
Fractal Muse wrote:
How do you feel about Ishukone giving away just under half of your home world?


Your question is inherently flawed. Ishukone did not give away half of Caldari Prime. Ishukone does not own Caldari Prime and cannot therefore give it away to anybody.

What you meant to ask, I suspect, is how do we feel about the Chief Executive Panel giving away just under half of Caldari Prime to which I will respond with:

The Chief Executive Panel is acting within the best interests of both people, Gallente and Caldari by working toward a workable compromise for both peoples. They are not "giving away" parts of Caldari Prime so much as recognizing the Federation's legal right to authority over areas of the planet as it falls within their national jurisdiction.

In return, we Caldari are able to move about and live on Caldari Prime as well as maintain a level of autonomy in the areas appointed to our governance by this joint agreement which is more than we had two days ago. I'd say the CEP is playing their hand wisely and I continue to fully support and commend them for doing so.

~Malcolm Khross
Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#123 - 2013-04-05 17:40:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Makoto Priano
Unfortunately, despite Caldari forces holding the majority of the orbital defenses, I doubt we could have held the planet indefinitely. While in the short term this deal feels like a ceding of territory, in the longer term it preserves some hold of the planet infinitely better than arms could have. We'll see how this progresses, of course.

I suspect, though, that Quafe will now be a significant target for Caldari business deals -- specifically with a mind toward acquisition of properties or facilities.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Fractal Muse
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#124 - 2013-04-05 17:51:35 UTC
Malcolm Khross wrote:

What you meant to ask, I suspect, is how do we feel about the Chief Executive Panel giving away just under half of Caldari Prime to which I will respond with:

Perhaps I misunderstood the news releases that indicated that Ishukone had negotiated directly with the Gallente Federation for access to Caldari Prime. The other corporations appear to have come on board after the negotiations had taken place.

But, if you wish to put it that it was the CEP that did it then, by all means, I will use CEP as the instigator of giving away almost half of Caldari Prime in the future.

Quote:
The Chief Executive Panel is acting within the best interests of both people, Gallente and Caldari by working toward a workable compromise for both peoples. They are not "giving away" parts of Caldari Prime so much as recognizing the Federation's legal right to authority over areas of the planet as it falls within their national jurisdiction.

Who owned Caldari Prime prior to this arrangement? The Caldari State did.

Who owns Caldari Prime after this arrangement? Both the "Caldari State" does and Gallente.

It seems that just under half of the planet was given away. You can try and play semantics but that's how it appears.
Grideris
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#125 - 2013-04-05 18:01:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Grideris
Makoto Priano wrote:
Unfortunately, despite Caldari forces holding the majority of the orbital defenses, I doubt we could have held the planet indefinitely. While in the short term this deal feels like a ceding of territory, in the longer term it preserves some hold of the planet infinitely better than arms could have. We'll see how this progresses, of course.

I suspect, though, that Quafe will now be a significant target for Caldari business deals -- specifically with a mind toward acquisition of properties or facilities.


That leads onto one thing I think a lot of people have missed. The Gallente districts are being administered by Mineral Acquisition, a company that is more or less a part of Quafe.

And here's the kicker: Quafe is (as far as I remember) the only Gallente corporation that enjoyed full domestic sovereignty in the Caldari State. So in some ways, the entire planet has major Caldari influences in it's administration.

http://www.dust514.org - the unofficial forum for everything DUST 514 http://www.dust514base.com -** the** blog site with everything else DUST 514 you need
Axel Kurki
Aseyakone
#126 - 2013-04-05 18:05:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Axel Kurki
Technically, 100% of Caldari Prime is controlled by member corporations of the State, though by proxy. I understand that Quafe Corporation has a controlling stake in Material Acquisitions, the corporation that administrates Home with Ishukone. Admitted, Quafe is no longer a full member of the State due to Provist pressure, but they do retain their membership. I wonder if they will use this as a bargaining chip to negotiate about becoming a full member again.

...oh, apparently I was quite slow, as I was checking the status of Quafe. But no, they do not hold full rights any more. Though fully Caldari they are not, in any case. A good compromise: Neither is the population of the planet fully Caldari.
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#127 - 2013-04-05 20:59:35 UTC
Svetlana Scarlet wrote:

Believing that sovereign entities are entitled to do as their please without outside interference is not "xenophobia," something the Federation and its puppets need to try to grasp. What right does someone who has grown up outside the State, who has never been part of our society, who clearly does not understand our culture, and who is clearly only trying to provoke some sort of response against the Gallente and their Republic allies for what reason I cannot fathom -- perhaps to simply throw the cluster into chaos again as the Republic has done before -- have to tell me what I should do as a Caldari?

The Federation and Republic talk a great deal about freedom, but for some reason it only seems to apply to what they can tell others to do, not actually allowing them to take care of their own affairs. Your own garden is rife with weeds, Captain Rella...perhaps you should tend to it before you and yours tell us what to do with our own.


I have no clue what the hell you mean. No one in the Republic is telling you people what to do or how to feel. In fact, the only reason we're even the least bit concerned about your people is the fact that you're helping your Amarrian allies in the war and helping them to take our systems.

Puppets? We Matari are no one's damned puppets. We do as we will for the good of our own. We will not be judged by you, your Amarrian masters or anyone else.

On the one hand you Caldari go around yelling about respecting your traditions and values but, in the same breath insult anyone who isn't Caldari.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
Kithrus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#128 - 2013-04-05 21:10:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Kithrus
Anabella Rella wrote:
Svetlana Scarlet wrote:

Believing that sovereign entities are entitled to do as their please without outside interference is not "xenophobia," something the Federation and its puppets need to try to grasp. What right does someone who has grown up outside the State, who has never been part of our society, who clearly does not understand our culture, and who is clearly only trying to provoke some sort of response against the Gallente and their Republic allies for what reason I cannot fathom -- perhaps to simply throw the cluster into chaos again as the Republic has done before -- have to tell me what I should do as a Caldari?

The Federation and Republic talk a great deal about freedom, but for some reason it only seems to apply to what they can tell others to do, not actually allowing them to take care of their own affairs. Your own garden is rife with weeds, Captain Rella...perhaps you should tend to it before you and yours tell us what to do with our own.


I have no clue what the hell you mean. No one in the Republic is telling you people what to do or how to feel. In fact, the only reason we're even the least bit concerned about your people is the fact that you're helping your Amarrian allies in the war and helping them to take our systems.

Puppets? We Matari are no one's damned puppets. We do as we will for the good of our own. We will not be judged by you, your Amarrian masters or anyone else.

On the one hand you Caldari go around yelling about respecting your traditions and values but, in the same breath insult anyone who isn't Caldari.


If the Empire was to declare it was never going to set foot in Republic space again and the federation magically dissapeared can you tell me with a straight face that your republic can stand on its own too feet?

I don't think you can though you may lie you can.

That aside why are you dragging the Amarrians into this? The Caldari and the Federation seem to have everything worked out just fine here without your screaming for revolution.

Run along now and go play with your rusty ships.

Darkness is more then absence of light, it is ignorance and corruption. I will be the Bulwark from such things that you may live in the light. Pray so my arms do not grow weary and my footing remain sure.

If you are brave, join me in the dark.
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#129 - 2013-04-05 21:18:58 UTC
Yes we'd be just fine, you addled fool. Now run along and play with your golden bricks you call starships. No one was addressing you.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#130 - 2013-04-05 22:28:51 UTC
Fractal Muse wrote:
Who owned Caldari Prime prior to this arrangement? The Caldari State did.


Wrong. Nobody owned or owns Caldari Prime. At best, you can state that the Caldari State forces maintained a controlling presence on the surface but the Federation maintained a controlling presence in the space surrounding the planet. Your assessment that the planet was "owned" by the State is again inherently flawed.

Fractal Muse wrote:
Who owns Caldari Prime after this arrangement? Both the "Caldari State" does and Gallente.


Wrong again. The planet now lies under a three-way joint jurisdiction between the Federation, the State and Mordu's Legion. It is a demilitarized zone for both the Federation and the State, leaving Mordu's Legion as the officiator in security and police matters. The planet is under politically neutral jurisdiction with full autonomy to both Federal and State regions.

Fractal Muse wrote:
It seems that just under half of the planet was given away. You can try and play semantics but that's how it appears.


Only to the ignorant.

~Malcolm Khross
Shiho Weitong
Yeet and Yoink Inc.
Heirs To The Pleasurehub
#131 - 2013-04-06 02:02:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Shiho Weitong
Diana Kim wrote:

Real soldier fights because of duty and follows orders, not just shoots around.


Listen to me, if you so please, young Kim-haani and listen well.

The way of the wind shall strenghten your resolve against any enemy.
It shall do so, so that you may better serve the interest of the State.
If you truly consider yourself a citizen and you truly consider yourself a soldier, you must also consider yourself a state asset.
You cannot hold a personal agenda in opposition to the CEP and consider yourself loyal.
Your loyalty will be shown when you like Alakoni Ishanoya Lays down personal ambition and agenda for the state.

This may sound like me scolding you, but that is not my intent.
Your demeanor is belittling yourself and your state.
Your personal opinions are yours to hold. I too desire CP under state control.
The CEP however have decided that this is the right path for the state at this time and as state assets it is not our place to question. It is not even Heths.

Submit to Heiian. Honor yourself and your state.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#132 - 2013-04-06 09:17:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyn Farel
Svetlana Scarlet wrote:

Believing that sovereign entities are entitled to do as their please without outside interference is not "xenophobia," something the Federation and its puppets need to try to grasp. What right does someone who has grown up outside the State, who has never been part of our society, who clearly does not understand our culture, and who is clearly only trying to provoke some sort of response against the Gallente and their Republic allies for what reason I cannot fathom -- perhaps to simply throw the cluster into chaos again as the Republic has done before -- have to tell me what I should do as a Caldari?


And if the Caldari had instead to grasp that acting like spoiled brats and yelling everywhere that they do what they want is usually a bad idea in the realm of intergalactic politics ?

Even the Amarr Empire understood that long ago, which is quite telling.

It is not about people having the right to tell the Caldari what they should do as Caldari. It is about people having the right to tell them what they should not do as members of the Yulai Convention.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#133 - 2013-04-06 09:46:15 UTC
Svetlana Scarlet wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
Radical terrorists? Eh?
They were the only loyalists that came to stop SuVee from squandering resources, allocated for war effort. They were doing job for the State, for all of us. Well, since you are not one of us, these noble fighters, who gave their lives protecting interests of the State in unequal fight are just 'radical terrorists'. Should I have expected less from a gallentean, eh?

A terrorist group wanted by the State until it just so happens Tibus Heth comes to power -- interfering with a sovereign corporation carrying supplies on a CEP-approved mission...and those are the "loyalists"?

A true loyalist is one who stands for the State and the ideals it was founded upon, and who respects the chain of command as dictated in the charter of the State, not someone who goosesteps along to the orders of a fortunate loader operator.

First, those, who were terrorists and were 'wanted', died like what, 200 years ago?

And second, yes, loyalists must respect chain of command and follow orders of superior officers, not consultative organ. Order, given by Sami Okuuda, wasn't cancelled by superior Navy officer or Executor himself. If CEP had power over Navy they would order them to cancel previous order, but instead they asked capsuleers to "Disregard all Navy Communications". This only means that CEP did not control the situation and was outside of chain of command.

It is a shame that CEP stood to protect SuVees in this conflict, but I believe the Executor will solve this situation with CEP without our help.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#134 - 2013-04-06 09:59:27 UTC
Shiho Weitong wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:

Real soldier fights because of duty and follows orders, not just shoots around.


Listen to me, if you so please, young Kim-haani and listen well.

The way of the wind shall strenghten your resolve against any enemy.
It shall do so, so that you may better serve the interest of the State.
If you truly consider yourself a citizen and you truly consider yourself a soldier, you must also consider yourself a state asset.
You cannot hold a personal agenda in opposition to the CEP and consider yourself loyal.
Your loyalty will be shown when you like Alakoni Ishanoya Lays down personal ambition and agenda for the state.

This may sound like me scolding you, but that is not my intent.
Your demeanor is belittling yourself and your state.
Your personal opinions are yours to hold. I too desire CP under state control.
The CEP however have decided that this is the right path for the state at this time and as state assets it is not our place to question. It is not even Heths.

Submit to Heiian. Honor yourself and your state.

Thank you for your words, Weitong-haan, but I am afraid you got me wrong. I do not oppose to the CEP in any way. I am doing only what I am ordered to do and what I must to do. Should I be assigned to follow CEP commands I will do it without hesitation.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Shiho Weitong
Yeet and Yoink Inc.
Heirs To The Pleasurehub
#135 - 2013-04-06 10:15:48 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Shiho Weitong wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:

Real soldier fights because of duty and follows orders, not just shoots around.


Listen to me, if you so please, young Kim-haani and listen well.

The way of the wind shall strenghten your resolve against any enemy.
It shall do so, so that you may better serve the interest of the State.
If you truly consider yourself a citizen and you truly consider yourself a soldier, you must also consider yourself a state asset.
You cannot hold a personal agenda in opposition to the CEP and consider yourself loyal.
Your loyalty will be shown when you like Alakoni Ishanoya Lays down personal ambition and agenda for the state.

This may sound like me scolding you, but that is not my intent.
Your demeanor is belittling yourself and your state.
Your personal opinions are yours to hold. I too desire CP under state control.
The CEP however have decided that this is the right path for the state at this time and as state assets it is not our place to question. It is not even Heths.

Submit to Heiian. Honor yourself and your state.

Thank you for your words, Weitong-haan, but I am afraid you got me wrong. I do not oppose to the CEP in any way. I am doing only what I am ordered to do and what I must to do. Should I be assigned to follow CEP commands I will do it without hesitation.


This is your way and i will respect that.
Knowing boundaries and following orders are commendable, and I do respect your decision.
I do hope though, that when the current mess in the state have cleared, we will still be of the same state.
I fear the route the Executor is taking is leading us towards civil war. Should this come to pass, know that i will be flying against you. And i shall weep for every life i will be forced to take. Even more shall I weep if a division of the state should ever come to pass.

Let no outsider judge you for following orders.
Let no outsider question your loyalty.
Let no outsider lecture you on the way of the winds.

Your judgement shall come from your superiors and noone else.
Your loyalty will prove itself if true.
Seek guidance from the winds alone or with other statesmen.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#136 - 2013-04-07 02:43:30 UTC
I am honored, Weiton-haan!

However, I believe that our leader does whatever possible to prevent civil war. I don't think that, after all that the Executor did for us. many citizens would stay on anti-provist side and will try to disorganize the State. Although there are some for sure, I hope they will be dealt with and the Executor will come to understanding with CEP to keep the State working as a healthy mechanism.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#137 - 2013-04-07 21:51:45 UTC
Quote:
The districts are purely administrative; they shall not be segregated by ethnicity.


No need to, the people will do this entirely on their own. Just give them time to pack up their stuff.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#138 - 2013-04-07 21:58:04 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Quote:
The districts are purely administrative; they shall not be segregated by ethnicity.


No need to, the people will do this entirely on their own. Just give them time to pack up their stuff.


Whether you're governed according to State Law or Federation is more than a cosmetic issue. I believe the population will self-segregate.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.