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Station Trading Bots - CCP Please do something about this!

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Mila Chancel
Fungibility Inc.
Invisible Exchequer
#81 - 2013-04-03 20:43:38 UTC
0Lona 0ltor wrote:


Wrong the EVE uni player was banned for RMT. He was providing ISK via botting to other players which CCP took real offence too. I'm positive CCP could easily know that he was botting before but they simply do not care enough to even look. CCP has still not taken any action to detect botting with client end software detection or a VAC style program. CCP will however act when RMT is involved and they do have procedures to detect this and will simply insta ban anyone selling ISK they catch as it detracts from PLEX sales.

Make no mistake the dude was banned for RMT and not botting. As it stands botting is not even bannable unless you ignore at least 3 specific warnings and even then you'll more than likely get a time ban. Sell 1 isk for 1 cent and you'll get banned.



He was banned, but got to keep his iskies (whether due to oversight or not),after his ban he donated the iskies to Eve Uni, then CCP caught up with the removal of assets, and removed the assets from Eve-Uni, leading to much forum hilarity/raging

So, he was banned first, but didnt lose the isk

(Banned for, in Eve Unis words "... using the common tools available, as well as custom built tools, but never automating anything to do with the EVE client himself - the closest he ever got was probably to create custom in-game-browser pages to streamline his workflow, meaning he would log into an alt, and update around 30 orders a minute for 10-20 minutes at a time. ...")

CCPs Response: "1) John was botting. That is not even close to in dispute.
2) We committed an error in not removing the isk before it got to EVE-U. However we did rectify this problem and our logs show that it was discussed and approved prior to either them receiving the isk or petitioning. We apologized to EVE-U however the petition was escalated as high as it could be and the decision remained. We cannot typically share this information with them as it's really none of their business."
0Lona 0ltor
Adeptio Gloriae
#82 - 2013-04-03 20:48:22 UTC
See this worries me if automation outside the client is bannable, are trade tools which provide figures for people to insert rapidly into market orders considered botting? Also if this is the case then when are all these lottery runners getting banned and all their isk seized?
Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#83 - 2013-04-03 20:54:32 UTC
0Lona 0ltor wrote:
See this worries me if automation outside the client is bannable, are trade tools which provide figures for people to insert rapidly into market orders considered botting? Also if this is the case then when are all these lottery runners getting banned and all their isk seized?


CCP have already made it clear that anything that directly influence and change timesinks ingame is considered botting or automation and is not accepted.

How hard they will enforce this is anyones guess. Looking back to unholy rage I think they will be pretty strict ones they decide their policy and resulting actions.

I think a rather clear NULL TOLERANCE POLICY would be nice to get from CSM and CCP discussion, so we can have a clear detailed description of legality directly using examples from ingame history and current mechanics.

Basically using EVE history to show precedence cases and thus show the interpretation of the "LAW"
0Lona 0ltor
Adeptio Gloriae
#84 - 2013-04-04 05:57:33 UTC  |  Edited by: 0Lona 0ltor
Unholy rage was an Anti-RMT campaign dressed up as an anti bot campaign and had nothing to do with directly targetting botting. The fact that RMT'rs use botting is just a coincidence. If you think anyone was perma banned in unholy rage for botting you are mistaken, each person banned in unholy rage was involved with RMT never forget that fact.
Amanda Hug'n'Kiss
Gas-Light-Industries
#85 - 2013-04-04 09:53:20 UTC
0Lona 0ltor wrote:
Amanda Hug'n'Kiss wrote:


I would like to think that CCP care enough about it's customers that they would want to stop the cheats and provide a fair game. Unfortunately I'm not sure that is true given the EVE University player who got banned for botting. Surely it would be easy to detect players who alter an inhuman amount of orders per minute. This bloke did it for several years and amount 100's of billions before he was detected.


Wrong the EVE uni player was banned for RMT. He was providing ISK via botting to other players which CCP took real offence too. I'm positive CCP could easily know that he was botting before but they simply do not care enough to even look. CCP has still not taken any action to detect botting with client end software detection or a VAC style program. CCP will however act when RMT is involved and they do have procedures to detect this and will simply insta ban anyone selling ISK they catch as it detracts from PLEX sales.

Make no mistake the dude was banned for RMT and not botting. As it stands botting is not even bannable unless you ignore at least 3 specific warnings and even then you'll more than likely get a time ban. Sell 1 isk for 1 cent and you'll get banned.


Well that's really sad (if true). Cheat the players, that's fine. Cheat the company, meet the ban hammer.
Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#86 - 2013-04-04 10:15:10 UTC
I am sure the 3 strikes is basically to avoid a lot of wasted issues with mistakes.

Starting a dialogue with warnings is a lot more effective on ccp time.

Also some might test tools or let themselves be lured into trying bots and automation. I think its perfectly good business sense to point out the practice is unacceptable and maybe save an income and potentially honest and good future player and ofc customer.

Just blatantly assuming greed and bias from ccp is very simplistic thinking.

What about exploits.. If exploiters gets warnings, why should botters not?

Justice and Rules always needs leniency.
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#87 - 2013-04-04 10:33:20 UTC
Caleb Ayrania wrote:
Just blatantly assuming greed and bias from ccp is very simplistic thinking.

Indeed.

You can choose to assign evil designs and dark conspiracies to CCP if you wish, but the fact is they are a bunch of drunks in Iceland that create games for the enjoyment of others and need to earn money from that activity in order to remain drunk.

I for one identify with and fully approve of that.
Naes Mlahrend
Devil's Horsemen
#88 - 2013-04-05 12:19:10 UTC
Oki Troom wrote:
Even the recently implemented email alert system takes about 2 minutes to receive notification and then change a price.




WTF is this and how do I set it up?
Rhivre
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#89 - 2013-04-05 15:40:08 UTC
WTF is this "Botting is pretty much mandatory"?

Show us on the dolly where the nasty bot hurt you.

Fluffy Bunny Pic!

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#90 - 2013-04-05 15:55:51 UTC
One thing. Bots are now 2 strike. Not 3.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Noob Darius
#91 - 2013-04-05 21:29:36 UTC
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
Stonkeep wrote:
There are definitely bots and they are easy to spot if you have been trading for a while. Reporting them most of the time does not do anything to be honest. I have reported several in Amarr and nothing happened.

And no real trader in their right mind would continue to bid with only 0.01 ISK, especially when you are in a market pvp with someone else at that moment. I am talking purely of Buy orders tho, sell orders I do not care much.

If you are being constantly outbid .01 ISK even with using different methods of price manipulation you are definitely against a bot.

Here how it usually goes;

I put a buy order for item X for 460,000.00 ISK
The bot outbids me with 460,000.01 ISK
I than outbid the bot with 460,003.56 ISK ( totally random with usage of mouse wheel)
The bot outbids me with 460,003.57 ISK
I again change the order to 460,012.23 ISK (again mousewheel)
The bot outbids yet again with 460,012.24 ISK (.01 again )
I get tired after a while and change the buy order to 470,000.00 ISK
The bot outbids me 470,000.01 ISK.

This is a prime example of a bot. No player would go out of their way to type again the random number I generated with mousewheel and increasing it with only .01 ISK. It just does not make sense, especially if you are managing 100+ orders at a time.

Unfortunately, there quite a bit of people who uses these bots and they will straight out refuse that the behavior I just described is not a bot. Not much to do really.



This dude is using a spreadsheet and a program tied into the market api. It's totaly EULA legal, the program automaticaly generates the .01 isk number, all he has to do is copy paste or click ok depending on the program he is using. The reason this macro is legal is that it in no way automates anything within the eve client. The user must manually click the ok on the order or copy and paste the number.

With a good set up you can get this down to 4 keyboard commands ie ''q'' copy from spread ''w'' open eve client (or move mouse x distance), ''e'' double click order (or right adjust order) ''r'' paste/ enter.

Now repeat 50 times every 15 mins while youu pvp on your null sec main.



Your sig line should read "ensure".
Hrothgar Nilsson
#92 - 2013-04-05 22:18:33 UTC
Oki Troom wrote:
For example, I update my by and sell orders several times a day and on anything with any volume my price gets under cut by 0.01 ISK by 3 or four other players within about 30 seconds. Now you don't need to tell me about obsessive game playing but this is too fast to be anything other than an automated trade. Even the recently implemented email alert system takes about 2 minutes to receive notification and then change a price.

This seems completely normal, not sure why you think there's botting behind being undercut a few times within that time frame.

I've... seen things you people wouldn't believe...

Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion...
Aina Sasaki
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#93 - 2013-04-06 19:33:52 UTC
I've run into some pretty absurd competition at times with people who update orders so fast that it seems hardly worth the effort for me, since the last thing I will do is camp the market doing constant updates. I have better things to do.

My solution was to find better items to trade, which have less competition, or that have volumes so high that my orders will fill/sell no matter how many 0.01 ISK fools are playing with it.

- Rei
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#94 - 2013-04-06 21:26:06 UTC
I've deleted some unwanted posts. Please people discussing the topic is fine, assuming what CCP does or does not do without hard facts is not.

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ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Hannah Achasse
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#95 - 2013-04-07 04:45:00 UTC
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
There is also a lot of macro EULA legal software that can update 100's of market orders every 2 mins that is totally legit in the game rules.


"John" from EVE-U disagrees with this.
0Lona 0ltor
Adeptio Gloriae
#96 - 2013-04-07 11:24:42 UTC
Let me ask that awkward question in a forum legal way.

Why does CCP feel it's OK to provide a botter with 3 written warnings before taking any action against a single account where a RMT ISK seller does not get a single warning before having multiple accounts banned?

I put it to the forum it is becaise the Botter harms the player base where as the RMT dude supports the player base but harms CCP by providing cheap ISK.
Rhivre
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#97 - 2013-04-07 11:31:18 UTC
0Lona 0ltor wrote:
Let me ask that awkward question in a forum legal way.

Why does CCP feel it's OK to provide a botter with 3 written warnings before taking any action against a single account where a RMT ISK seller does not get a single warning before having multiple accounts banned?

I put it to the forum it is becaise the Botter harms the player base where as the RMT dude supports the player base but harms CCP by providing cheap ISK.



Well.... I would hazard a guess that RMTers are selling items which do not belong to them, whereas a bot is automating gameplay.

Both harm the player base, but only one is actually profiting from goods/services which are not theirs to sell. RMTers affect the player base in the same way floods of cheap money or goods affect any economy.

Fluffy Bunny Pic!

Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#98 - 2013-04-07 14:19:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Bad Bobby
0Lona 0ltor wrote:
Let me ask that awkward question in a forum legal way.

Why does CCP feel it's OK to provide a botter with 3 written warnings before taking any action against a single account where a RMT ISK seller does not get a single warning before having multiple accounts banned?

I put it to the forum it is becaise the Botter harms the player base where as the RMT dude supports the player base but harms CCP by providing cheap ISK.

Because different offenses require different responses.

Botters harm CCP too, because a botter will consume more resources than a normal player while paying the same subscription.

RMTers harm the players too, because with real money comes real crimes such as hacking.
0Lona 0ltor
Adeptio Gloriae
#99 - 2013-04-07 16:21:21 UTC  |  Edited by: 0Lona 0ltor
So how about CCP taking botting seriously and making it a one occurrence and multiple account ban punishment such as RMT is treated?

The only answer to that is CPP finds small scale botting within the rules and you should only stop if warned to do so. I'm happy with this as long as CCP says so in the EULA. As it stands CCP is in breach of their own EULA by not enforcing a ban on botting.

If CCP breaks the EULA daily then why should players not?
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#100 - 2013-04-07 16:43:34 UTC
0Lona 0ltor wrote:
The only answer to that is CPP finds small scale botting within the rules

That is clearly not the only answer, that's just the only one you've written.

They could be working with limited resources and therefore they may have to prioritise some things over others. This is not an uncommon feature of running a business. Maybe this is an answer?

Maybe they genuinely feel that botting is a less serious offence than RMT and are therefore giving a proportionate response. This is not an uncommon feature of rules enforcement. Maybe this is an answer?

Given that both of those are more likely, more logical, more reasonable and more in line with CCP's public statements on these matters, I have to wonder why you would choose an unlikely, illogical, unreasonable and inflamatory interpretation instead.