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Why risk versus reward doesn't matter
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Nexus Day
Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
#161 - 2013-04-04 00:49:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Nexus Day
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
Nexus Day wrote:

Risk versus reward is bozo. Lo sec is about freedom, hi sec is about sacrificing those freedoms for protection.


You were actually kinda making sense until this statement. The only "protection" that exists in high is the 24-hour cooling off period for war decs, and that really only applies to people with small or medium towers that can't be arsed to fit them for defense (or man those guns). CONCORD is not protection, and merc corps are not protection.

I think you are missing out on all the protection hi sec offers beyond Concord.

Don't believe me? Try and shoot a bomb off in Empire. Just one small example.
Nexus Day
Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
#162 - 2013-04-04 00:53:33 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:


Policemen do not, as a rule, have the responsibility (or ability) to prevent any specific crime. All they can do is investigate and punish (simplifying) the criminal after the the crime has occurred. They punish that criminal according to certain laws.


I don't know where you live but here we have patrol cars. The operative word being patrol.

Police do not punish criminals, they apprehend them for trial. Only in certain cases do the laws allow them to deal out punishment, usually in retaliation to violence.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#163 - 2013-04-04 01:07:40 UTC
Nexus Day wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:


Policemen do not, as a rule, have the responsibility (or ability) to prevent any specific crime. All they can do is investigate and punish (simplifying) the criminal after the the crime has occurred. They punish that criminal according to certain laws.


I don't know where you live but here we have patrol cars. The operative word being patrol.

Police do not punish criminals, they apprehend them for trial. Only in certain cases do the laws allow them to deal out punishment, usually in retaliation to violence.

Another related point, in many places if law enforcement entities have sufficient reason to believe an individual or group has intent to commit a crime they are allowed and required to intervene beforehand to prevent that crime from occurring.
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#164 - 2013-04-04 01:33:27 UTC
Nexus Day wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:


Policemen do not, as a rule, have the responsibility (or ability) to prevent any specific crime. All they can do is investigate and punish (simplifying) the criminal after the the crime has occurred. They punish that criminal according to certain laws.


I don't know where you live but here we have patrol cars. The operative word being patrol.

Police do not punish criminals, they apprehend them for trial. Only in certain cases do the laws allow them to deal out punishment, usually in retaliation to violence.


And there's many ways to patrol and punish. Much more than this CONCORD concept.

I would love to have public stocks so the pirates and scammers who are caught can be pelted with trash. A gaol for the really awful of the lot. And some Nuremberg trials for alliance leaders to face executions.

And I'll even pay for it.

But, hey, I'm the "carebear".

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#165 - 2013-04-04 04:59:31 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Nexus Day wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:


Policemen do not, as a rule, have the responsibility (or ability) to prevent any specific crime. All they can do is investigate and punish (simplifying) the criminal after the the crime has occurred. They punish that criminal according to certain laws.


I don't know where you live but here we have patrol cars. The operative word being patrol.

Police do not punish criminals, they apprehend them for trial. Only in certain cases do the laws allow them to deal out punishment, usually in retaliation to violence.

Another related point, in many places if law enforcement entities have sufficient reason to believe an individual or group has intent to commit a crime they are allowed and required to intervene beforehand to prevent that crime from occurring.


Missed something important in my post:
RubyPorto wrote:
(simplifying)

"The Police and associated apparatus of the Judicial system"
Better?

Anyway,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeShaney_v._Winnebago_County
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Rock_v._Gonzales
The Supreme Court says that the Police have no duty to prevent any specific crime, and thus cannot be held liable if they fail to do so.

And, until they open fire, there is no probable cause to think the Suicide ganker is going to do anything illegal. It is legal to be an outlaw in space. It is legal to be anywhere in space with an armed ship, so being so cannot be PC to believe intent. It is legal to lock up another ship, so that also cannot be PC. In fact, the moment CONCORD has PC to believe that a crime will be committed coincides with the moment when CONCORD scrams the offender (i.e. the moment they open fire).

See, the reason why more detailed comparisons between RL Police and CONCORD fall apart is that the EVE universe has fundamentally different laws than any RL country that I'm familiar with.

Putting a gun to someone's head is illegal in RL.
The equivalent action (targeting someone with your ship) in EVE is perfectly legal.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#166 - 2013-04-04 06:35:51 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:

See, the reason why more detailed comparisons between RL Police and CONCORD fall apart is that the EVE universe has fundamentally different laws than any RL country that I'm familiar with.


completely agree
that's why RL-like "pay for protection to CONCORD" doesn't work in Eve

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Jake Warbird
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#167 - 2013-04-04 06:37:56 UTC
Andski wrote:
imagine a space-themed amusement park and you have several rides

that's what eve is basically going towards

I wanna ride my vindicator bumper car... but if you bump me too hard i'm gonna complain to mommy..

Sugar Von MurdererTits : Jake Warbird gets my vote for most intriguing and attractive male character in Eve.
Super spikinator
Hegemonous Conscripts
#168 - 2013-04-04 07:04:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Super spikinator
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Nexus Day wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:


Policemen do not, as a rule, have the responsibility (or ability) to prevent any specific crime. All they can do is investigate and punish (simplifying) the criminal after the the crime has occurred. They punish that criminal according to certain laws.


I don't know where you live but here we have patrol cars. The operative word being patrol.

Police do not punish criminals, they apprehend them for trial. Only in certain cases do the laws allow them to deal out punishment, usually in retaliation to violence.


And there's many ways to patrol and punish. Much more than this CONCORD concept.

I would love to have public stocks so the pirates and scammers who are caught can be pelted with trash. A gaol for the really awful of the lot. And some Nuremberg trials for alliance leaders to face executions.

And I'll even pay for it.

But, hey, I'm the "carebear".


There are many things in this game that I want included because they exist in real life too!
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#169 - 2013-04-04 08:48:12 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:

See, the reason why more detailed comparisons between RL Police and CONCORD fall apart is that the EVE universe has fundamentally different laws than any RL country that I'm familiar with.


completely agree
that's why RL-like "pay for protection to CONCORD" doesn't work in Eve


That's not actually one of the things that runs into that problem*. There's nothing fundamentally flawed about suggesting that CONCORD collect taxes to fund their police force. Taxes are already levied on many HS activities. Why shouldn't CONCORD get into the game?

*It may run into other problems. I'm ambivalent about it. But HS does provide far too high a level of income for its game-mechanically enforced safety. And as I've see no good argument for the removal of CONCORD** (though rolling back some of the buffs might not be a bad idea), the rewards are where the tweaking has room to happen.

**Empire without CONCORD is a gameplay experience already provided by another area.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#170 - 2013-04-04 08:54:26 UTC
It would, however, be hilarious to see how hisec would look after a week of no concord, just to get a proper test of how much protection concord actually provided. It would just be done to test the theory of some people, where they continually try to tell us concord doesn't provide any protection at all.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#171 - 2013-04-04 09:09:59 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:

That's not actually one of the things that runs into that problem*. There's nothing fundamentally flawed about suggesting that CONCORD collect taxes to fund their police force. Taxes are already levied on many HS activities. Why shouldn't CONCORD get into the game?

CONCORD doesn't onto it yet. So the question: why should it?

RubyPorto wrote:
*It may run into other problems. I'm ambivalent about it. But HS does provide far too high a level of income for its game-mechanically enforced safety.

it's very questionable. Income = ISK. Can you provide any values for "safety" measured in ISK?

If you can't then how do you know that bold part is true?

RubyPorto wrote:
And as I've see no good argument for the removal of CONCORD** (though rolling back some of the buffs might not be a bad idea), the rewards are where the tweaking has room to happen.

What would you tweak without real numbers?

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#172 - 2013-04-04 09:13:40 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
It would, however, be hilarious to see how hisec would look after a week of no concord, just to get a proper test of how much protection concord actually provided. It would just be done to test the theory of some people, where they continually try to tell us concord doesn't provide any protection at all.

yea, it would be interesting. However 1 week is not enough: most of players will just wait until it finished. Maybe longer period of time would be more interesting....

Other experiment: add CONCORD and no-cyno/capitals into 0.0 space. And check what will happen. My guess: 0.0 will be alive and more populated than ever.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Dave Stark
#173 - 2013-04-04 09:16:03 UTC
if there wasn't any concord in high sec then i'd be fitting a talos with some blasters and i'd be ganking all the miners that didn't get the memo about concord being turned off.

i've always known that training battlecruisers to V was a good idea, even if i am a miner myself...
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#174 - 2013-04-04 09:21:53 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
CONCORD doesn't onto it yet. So the question: why should it?

Because it's one way to address the problem that HS income is too high for its level of mechanically enforced safety.

Quote:
it's very questionable. Income = ISK. Can you provide any values for "safety" measured in ISK?

If you can't then how do you know that bold part is true?


Empirically. Why else do most people with ready access to all of Nullsec's (and, obviously also LS's) individual income sources and all of HS's individual income sources end up making their ISK in HS?

That empirical test gives us a lower bound for the value of safety at [Nullsec Max Income]-[HS Max Income]=[Min Value of HS Safety], for any similar activity (Incursions/Missions vs Ratting, Mining, etc) because people flock to income sources that maximize the total profit (as in Revenue-Cost. Risk is always a Cost).

This, by the way, is about the same method economists and actuaries use to place a monetary value on a Human life.

Quote:
What would you tweak without real numbers?


See above.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#175 - 2013-04-04 09:25:18 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
yea, it would be interesting. However 1 week is not enough: most of players will just wait until it finished. Maybe longer period of time would be more interesting....

I'm pretty sure 1 week would suffice to show people like you just how much protection concord actually adds to hisec. Hell, even just a full day would suffice, no need to kill the game just to prove a point.

March rabbit wrote:
Other experiment: add CONCORD and no-cyno/capitals into 0.0 space. And check what will happen. My guess: 0.0 will be alive and more populated than ever.

I'm curious as to what you think this would actually do, except remove a huge drain of minerals and ships from the game.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#176 - 2013-04-04 16:48:19 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

Another related point, in many places if law enforcement entities have sufficient reason to believe an individual or group has intent to commit a crime they are allowed and required to intervene beforehand to prevent that crime from occurring.



I don't know about the rest of the world, but in the United States, there have been a large number of cases where people have sued to police for not preventing crime.

In every case, it has been dismissed.

It is the job of the police to investigate and facilitate punishment of individuals AFTER a crime has been committed, but it is not the job of the police to preemptively intervene to prevent crime.
Caldari Citizen 1897289768188
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#177 - 2013-04-04 20:47:39 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Arduemont wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Mining permits are already a thing, and have been for a while now, how did you miss the threadnaughts and whinefests about the New Order?


lol. The New Order guys have literally zero impact on game-play. Outside of the forums I have never (despite asking frequently) encountered anyone who has bumped into anyone actually doing that mining permit crap. If I ever find one, I will war dec their corp, just for the lols.



I know someone who did have an 'encounter' and 'discussion' with them.

Did not pay either.


Hard to bump into a one or two man alt corp. James has mor eforum alts then he has corp members.
Nick Bison
Bison Industrial Inc
#178 - 2013-04-04 21:44:05 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
...
Beekeeper Bob wrote:
...
Alara IonStorm wrote:

[quote=Beekeeper Bob] ...


Players work to make Null stable. They build that Empire and make it safe. They are the Concord. That is why they deserve much better rewards.


Deserves got nothing to do with it, son. Cool

Nothing clever at this time.
LoJ4X
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#179 - 2013-04-05 00:47:49 UTC  |  Edited by: LoJ4X
Wait so the OP want **** like mining permits because it exists in real life??

I dont mine but how would that make the game "moar betturz" ?

Miner I: hey lets go mine

Miner II: yeah good idea , but...we need to get a permit first.

Miner I: .......

Miner I: this is a ******* game am i right ?

Miner II: yeah it is but it is really kewl , you can apply for a mining permit just like in real life, wait for days or weeks for it to come though and then when you get denied the permit you can try and fight your way through all the bureaucracy. It is really annoying, passive and time consuming JUST LIKE IN REAL LIFE :D :D ....ITS GUUREAT i love this game :D

Miner I: .....

Miner: II: im logging off.

Miner I: Why?

Miner I: i gotta go to work.

Miner II: That sucks.

Miner I: A lot less then this game, cya
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#180 - 2013-04-05 19:05:47 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Nexus Day wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:


Policemen do not, as a rule, have the responsibility (or ability) to prevent any specific crime. All they can do is investigate and punish (simplifying) the criminal after the the crime has occurred. They punish that criminal according to certain laws.


I don't know where you live but here we have patrol cars. The operative word being patrol.

Police do not punish criminals, they apprehend them for trial. Only in certain cases do the laws allow them to deal out punishment, usually in retaliation to violence.

Another related point, in many places if law enforcement entities have sufficient reason to believe an individual or group has intent to commit a crime they are allowed and required to intervene beforehand to prevent that crime from occurring.


Missed something important in my post:
RubyPorto wrote:
(simplifying)

"The Police and associated apparatus of the Judicial system"
Better?

Anyway,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeShaney_v._Winnebago_County
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Rock_v._Gonzales
The Supreme Court says that the Police have no duty to prevent any specific crime, and thus cannot be held liable if they fail to do so.

And, until they open fire, there is no probable cause to think the Suicide ganker is going to do anything illegal. It is legal to be an outlaw in space. It is legal to be anywhere in space with an armed ship, so being so cannot be PC to believe intent. It is legal to lock up another ship, so that also cannot be PC. In fact, the moment CONCORD has PC to believe that a crime will be committed coincides with the moment when CONCORD scrams the offender (i.e. the moment they open fire).

See, the reason why more detailed comparisons between RL Police and CONCORD fall apart is that the EVE universe has fundamentally different laws than any RL country that I'm familiar with.

Putting a gun to someone's head is illegal in RL.
The equivalent action (targeting someone with your ship) in EVE is perfectly legal.



Weren't you the one who brought up the Police to solidify your stance on Concord "protecting"?

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.