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Collapsing Wormholes
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Zinn Irate
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1 - 2013-04-04 01:55:11 UTC
So, we were trying to collapse a U210, which has 3 billion max stable mass.

We pass an orca through three times. On the first trip in, we used a 100MN AB.

After the third trip back into the WH system, we expected the hole to go half crit. It doesn't until the next trip out.

So, after three more round trips, the hole goes full crit after coming back through. So, it was six trips in all with an AB on the first trip. That would be 3.05bil total mass and it didn't collapse.

I take an onyx through twice with an AB on coming back through. So, that's another approximately 46 million. It still doesn't collapse.

I knew the mass on a WH wasn't exact, but this one had at least a 3% variation. We left it full crit at that point. So who knows what it would have taken to collapse it.

Is the total mass that unpredictable or did we do something wrong?
Matuk Grymwal
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#2 - 2013-04-04 02:00:41 UTC
You need to account for +/- 10% variation. So the possible mass range is 2.7 - 3.3 billion.
CeNSeR
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2013-04-04 02:42:14 UTC
Put 4 bubbles on your onyx, its very unlikley to collapse with you on the wrong side. Even if it does at least your in k space.
Domoso
Planisphere Salvage
#4 - 2013-04-04 03:37:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Domoso
Accounting for WH mass is a waste of time due to variance. Sure, it's nice to know where you're at in the process and how much mass "should" be left but, the reality is you can't know in the end. And so, until you're familiar with your 3bil mass WH be cautious. And always in the end use a 4 bubble HIC. Otherwise, you're going to be losing Orca's and sht and that's just silly!

I love people who spreadsheet WH collapsing because just when they think they have it figured out (I want 4 BS's hot hot 2, cold cold and 1 hot cold) and have a "method" they're wrong eventually and scratching their head.

I suppose what I'm saying is, don't try to find a fool proof method. Just be smart about it so you don't lose expensive ships to silliness. I've never lost an Orca to hole collapsing. But then I never try to get that final pop with one either. If I'm lucky the BS will hit it just right, otherwise......to the HIC!

I know people who will place their Orca on the outside of the system they're trying to stay in collapsing a hole while BS's put on mass because it "always" works for them.....and then, inevitably they spend the next week trying to get their Orca out of where ever they got it stuck. Don't be silly!

As for that 10% variance.....myth....I've seen it >20% and on a very rare occasion pop as it's going stage 2. It's so rare you don't factor it but, you still need to be aware of it and prepared for it.
Adoris Nolen
Sama Guild
#5 - 2013-04-04 05:58:11 UTC
aim for 2.7 mass + orca on opposite side. at 2.7 use a cruiser/bc with 100mn after burner. both the orca & bc pilot should have sound on/no music and watch for the wormhole to shimmer for verge. the tooltip sometimes doesn't update for some people but for some reason, the shimmer as it gets close does. then jump orca back in.

tldr: the tooltip lags. i've noticed this on dual boxing more than a few times.
Praxximus
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2013-04-04 20:44:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Praxximus
3 hot battleships and a hot dread. 60% of the time, it works every time.
Praxximus
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2013-04-04 20:45:38 UTC
double post :P
Khashour
Doomheim
#8 - 2013-04-04 23:02:05 UTC
orca prop mod, dread prop mod. works every time.

beware of cloaky carriers on the other side
Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#9 - 2013-04-04 23:44:02 UTC
I like the part where people suggest you put a dread through a 300m jump C3>Low hole.

Science and Trade Institute [STI] is an NPC entity and as such my views do not represent those of the entity or any of its members

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=276984&p=38
Zinn Irate
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#10 - 2013-04-05 02:50:13 UTC
Thanks for the info, everyone. Looks like the 4-bubble hict is the trick to bleed off that extra variation.
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#11 - 2013-04-05 03:28:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Miton
Domoso wrote:
Accounting for WH mass is a waste of time due to variance!

thanks, i just snorted my coffee onto my monitor and keyboard....
Easily the dumbest thing ive ever heard regarding WH collapsing.

OP, 3 bil holes are by far the simplest to collapse.
fat ones you do easily with dreads, low end ones you do with BSs and an orca.
Just jump the orca out (WITHOUT prop mod if the hole is already reduced) and cloak it up.
then jump BSs through and back 1 at a time using prop mod (no prop mod if out when hole crits).
once hole crits, decloak orca, jump it back through heavy, done.

There is a very small chance this wont close the hole if the hole crits when jumping the BS back in.
if this happens, jump a cruiser through and back with 10mn ab (basically you need to put 30mil mass through to be 100% sure) before jumping the heavy orca back.

If you know the hole is fresh, ie: you just collased it and it's brand new, then you can do a few round orca trips before startiung the BSs.
Just do your maths right and make sure you leave 1 (and ONLY 1 :P) orca out until hole is crit.

obviously this wont work if hole is crit when youre starting, in that case you need a closing HIC.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2013-04-05 03:45:58 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
Domoso wrote:
Accounting for WH mass is a waste of time due to variance!

thanks, i just snorted my coffee onto my monitor and keyboard....
Easily the dumbest thing ive ever heard regarding WH collapsing.

OP, 3 bil holes are by far the simplest to collapse.
fat ones you do easily with dreads, low end ones you do with BSs and an orca.
Just jump the orca out (WITHOUT prop mod if the hole is already reduced) and cloak it up.
then jump BSs through and back 1 at a time using prop mod (no prop mod if out when hole crits).
once hole crits, decloak orca, jump it back through heavy, done.

There is a very small chance this wont close the hole if the hole crits when jumping the BS back in.
if this happens, jump a cruiser through and back with 10mn ab (basically you need to put 30mil mass through to be 100% sure) before jumping the heavy orca back.

If you know the hole is fresh, ie: you just collased it and it's brand new, then you can do a few round orca trips before startiung the BSs.
Just do your maths right and make sure you leave 1 (and ONLY 1 :P) orca out until hole is crit.

obviously this wont work if hole is crit when youre starting, in that case you need a closing HIC.


To each his own.

I hate leaving an orca cloaked on the wrong side. I prefer to get those whales done and off the field.

For a fresh 2bil hole 3 Orca with prop mod on will get you down to 200mil mass. with 3 orca pilots you have that done in maybe 2 min.

Then 3-4 100mn AB fit HIC's (80mil on the return trip)

we can knock one out in 5 min or less that way. Haven't ever lost anything on the wrong side.
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#13 - 2013-04-05 06:53:25 UTC
except he said he's collapsing a 3 bil hole.
you can't safely collapse 2bil holes with the method i described, if you try you will lose the orca a lot.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout