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Player morality in EVE online. Why did you leave it at the door?

First post
Author
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#101 - 2011-10-31 04:22:43 UTC
Well it's like this.

I like to have sex.

Fair enough. Right? Who doesn't?


But would I force a woman to do it with me, against her will? Is it still sex at that point? You know, the use of violence to subdue them, having to deal with the screams, the begging, pleading, blood perhaps.

That does not really float my boat. I fact describing such an action on my part makes me feel uncomfortable.


But still, there are people that make the mistake of thinking that:
- being horny
- being a man

equals forced sex acts. But in fact, it takes a certain kind of man to enjoy such a thing.

If there was any correctness to the assumption of the two points, there would not be a civilization right now - just people living in caves and a lot of scared women and children.

So EvE is supposed to be a PVP game. Even if you don't shoot anything, it's still PVP. Markets, out-producing your opponents in meeting market demands, being able to find exploration content faster - it's all PVP in one way or another.

Now, going on the assumptions:
- EvE is a PVP game
- people who play EvE want PVP

I like PVP - in many ways. I trespass everywhere and run exploration sites under the noses of people who could do a CTA just to catch and gank me. Seldom shoot anybody, but get what I come for regardless. If there is any locking of ships as targets, it's because I screwed up. Keep nuets and ecm drones for that mistake.

Now, if PVP for me were like forced sex, having to force it on people who didn't want it, is it enjoyable?

I made the case that liking sex does not make one want to force it, and liking PVP does not make you want to force it..


yet there are those who relish more in the grief than the PVP.

But if you ask them, they will make the case that is based on the wrong assumption of forced sex: that the desire for "it" will cause it.

It is, in many ways, like trying to understand a child molester. Who looks at a kid and thinks "hmmm - give me some of that?"


I knew a woman some years ago who, by bad luck, was very small. She was about 4' tall and sounded like a kid. She looked and sounded like a kid, but was in fact over 30. That's life.


So one day, I ask her : "do you get a lot of chesters trying to date you because you seem like a child to a lot of people?"

The answer, to my surprise, was no.

You see, she was over 30, an adult. If you got her in the bedroom, it's because she wanted to be there.

She would not be appealing to a pervert - it's not about "give me some sex".

It's all about having someone in a situation they don't want to be in, and if they beg or get angry, relish in that.


If I could have it that the world was totally lacking in chesters and asshats and EvE online becomes a kill fest, with people ganking you right out of the station and screaming "Does that bother you? UMAD? C'mon UMAD? Tell me!!!1!" I would consider that a good trade. The world would be a better place.

CCP means "Crowd Control Productions". The world, as it goes to crap, is filling up with people who are like those perverts - they will allow us to think that being horney causes it, like wanting PVP causes it, to keep their real sickness under the radar. CCP's product gives creeps something to do. Go to any blog sites of those players who say "hey, it's just a game" and read what they post, and you will see that they relish so much in bothering someone else, they will make a youtube about it and brag about it. Did they want PVP or did they want someone to suffer? They will say they want PVP.


And like a sex pervert sociopath, blame it on the victim. There's a lot of blame on the victim in these forums. It's your fault that you didn't fit enough tank! Yes, it's also the last sexual assault victims fault for wearing that dress so late at night too?

Every ganked hulk is one less new car getting keyed. Every neckbeard in mom's basement flaming a fleet member in vent ifor making a mistake is one less moron at the pub who wants to fight you for the crime of accidentally looking at him. Every internet based 3D construct representing a spaceship that is destroyed in rather dastardly ways means one less couple on a sidewalk having bottles thrown at them by a passing car full of nevergetlaidoids. ... because the latter are logged into EvE and gate camping somewhere.

I support CCP's product.


And every time I post a creepy rant here is one less person in the real world getting bored to death. P

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Zoe Alarhun
The Proactive Reappropriation Corporation
#102 - 2011-10-31 04:24:54 UTC
Because in real life I can't yell "YAAAAAAAARR!" while gunning a space ship towards some hapless fool to ransom for money. I'm moral person in real life. That means it's fun to play something completely different at home.
Thorn Galen
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#103 - 2011-10-31 04:33:43 UTC
Huehuehue wrote:
I know this is going to be a controversial topic (mostly everyone vs. me I think...) but please read trough. This is not a troll attempt of kind, but this is an attempt to generate discussion on this topic.

It seems to me that most of EVE player community seems to think , even if they don't do this themselves, that it's okay to shoot down a lone miner or missioner in low sec, steal ore, threaten someone for money etc. "It's part of the game, deal with it" is what I hear most of the time. The question I want to ask you is this: Why do you leave your morality at login screen? Don't get me wrong, pvp and such is obviously okay when both parties do it for fun and enjoyment, which is the case with most pvp in EVE. Sure, no one likes to lose but that's part of the fun too. But when you kill a lone miner who's not even in a player corp that's just evil. You don't see people saying "well he shouldn't whine it's part of the life" if a guy wanders in bad part of the town and gets beat up do you? How would like it if I came up to you and beat you up, afterwards saying "hey don't get mad, god (aka the lead dev of life ;) ) made this possible so it's cool!". You don't see theist go around saying **** like that do you?

It's so easy to be an ******* to people when you both are anonymous and it's never going to get back you. What marks a real good and moral person is his ability sympathize with others regardless of the fact who and where the other person is. "It's part of the game" is just really really bad excuse for behaving like an ******* and makes me wonder if these people are just as bad irl, or do express their inner ******* online because they don't have the balls to do it irl? I know I'd much rather just say hi to that lonely miner than blow him to pieces just because.



Sad but true. The excuse that "this is a sandbox" is overused and lame.
Eve brings out the worst in Humanity, because those that have no morals ingame are unable to be azzwipes in Real Life.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#104 - 2011-10-31 05:01:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Thank your lucky stars that there are many in this game that choose to play the role of the bad guy.

Without villains there would be no opportunity to be a hero.

I have played both hero's and villains on stage, in role playing (years ago), and in this game. Both roles can be entertaining and fun, and equally so for those playing the opposite side of the coin.

If over the years anyone has become upset in any of those three circumstances because I was playing the villain that day, it was not because of my actions. It was because they were too emotionally invested in the role THEY were playing.

Why?

Because in all three cases none of it was real. They were fabrications of reality designed to be pleasurable and entertaining in different ways... not taken seriously or personally.

You sir are overly invested in this game emotionally if you can't understand that distinction, and value your efforts in your hobby (which by it's own definition puts everything you do at risk at all times) more than is healthy for you.

At least just realize that if there was no element of danger from other players, you would have become bored with this game long ago and quit... and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Emad X
Best Feeders NA Inc.
#105 - 2011-10-31 05:25:20 UTC
As we all know, in a sandbox MMO game you should be able to do what you like to whom you like.

However, this doesn't mean there is no consequence to your actions. If you fly around a particular low sec area griefing the crap outta all the newbies you see, not only will your sec status probably drop, but you will gain a reputation and chances are that most of those newbies will remember your name or your corps name. The risk vs reward is always there.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#106 - 2011-10-31 05:36:25 UTC
To put things another way, I hear Harrison Ford is playing a bad guy in one of his latest films.

Do you feel that he must have had a sudden shift in his moral compass?

By your logic, he must have.

He played a hero is most all of his roles over the years and people looked up to him. For him to break everyone's trust in this way is simply wrong. Think of how upset he has made people.

People paid good money to watch him be a hero in that movie, and he as much as stole it from them.

Now does this, by any remote stretch of imagination, sound correct to you... because that is essentially what you are accusing every person that has every played a pirate, or participated in hulkageddon, of in this game.

Playing the bad guy does not make them a bad guy, it only enables YOU to play either the victim or the hero.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Veronica Kerrigan
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#107 - 2011-10-31 06:36:28 UTC
Because if you really want through this gate, you'll pay 200 million to the people who keep it secure. I keep space secure for people who have a large enough bank roll to need it secure.
Mors Sanctitatis
Death of Virtue
#108 - 2011-10-31 06:38:42 UTC
Huehuehue wrote:
I know this is going to be a controversial topic (mostly everyone vs. me I think...) but please read trough. This is not a troll attempt of kind, but this is an attempt to generate discussion on this topic.

It seems to me that most of EVE player community seems to think , even if they don't do this themselves, that it's okay to shoot down a lone miner or missioner in low sec, steal ore, threaten someone for money etc. "It's part of the game, deal with it" is what I hear most of the time. The question I want to ask you is this: Why do you leave your morality at login screen? Don't get me wrong, pvp and such is obviously okay when both parties do it for fun and enjoyment, which is the case with most pvp in EVE. Sure, no one likes to lose but that's part of the fun too. But when you kill a lone miner who's not even in a player corp that's just evil. You don't see people saying "well he shouldn't whine it's part of the life" if a guy wanders in bad part of the town and gets beat up do you? How would like it if I came up to you and beat you up, afterwards saying "hey don't get mad, god (aka the lead dev of life ;) ) made this possible so it's cool!". You don't see theist go around saying **** like that do you?

It's so easy to be an ******* to people when you both are anonymous and it's never going to get back you. What marks a real good and moral person is his ability sympathize with others regardless of the fact who and where the other person is. "It's part of the game" is just really really bad excuse for behaving like an ******* and makes me wonder if these people are just as bad irl, or do express their inner ******* online because they don't have the balls to do it irl? I know I'd much rather just say hi to that lonely miner than blow him to pieces just because.



You made a critical but common mistake in presenting your argument: you applied your "morals" to everyone else. You're assuming (wrongly) that what you think and how you think is more important than other people. The reality is that you're unable to separate reality from fantasy and as such are probably both a psychopath and a sociopath. Please stop posting.
Lexmana
#109 - 2011-10-31 06:46:59 UTC
Huehuehue wrote:
Ladie Harlot wrote:
Huehuehue wrote:
Ladie Harlot wrote:
So playing by the rules is all of a sudden considered immoral? Interesting.


So I can come kick your ass right now and as long as I manage to evade the cops it's cool because I played by the rules? I mean the way you say it it seems to me that you suggest as long as there are no consenquense for the "evil doer" it's playing by the rules right?

:cripes:

This has to be a troll.


How are the two scenarios different? You kill a missioneer in lowsec because you can, no consenqunses = it's okay even though the guy probably feels bad. I kick your ass without anyone seeing = no consenquenses, you feel bad, but hey it's still okay.


You seem to mix things up and I believe it would be best for you if you played less computer games and spend more time IRL. Just saying!
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#110 - 2011-10-31 07:01:27 UTC
Starting to think CCP needs a 'takes the game too seriously' queue like blizzard does.

As a wow gm, if someone shows signs of being mentally unbalanced enough, they get sent to a supervisor(usually without changing screen names so the player never knows) who keeps them tied up in chat while calling the cops to go check them out.

Fake suicide threats were always extra funny.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#111 - 2011-10-31 07:40:18 UTC
Justin Credulent wrote:
The thing is, whether or not it's "part of the game" or "not against the rules"... the fact is your actions are still 100% your choice.

Players who try to hide behind lines like "nowhere in EVE is safe" or "the GMs allow it" or "it's just part of the game" are moral and intellectual cowards trying to pass off blame for their own actions (and guilt) onto an innocent third party.



Do you believe that Ice Hockey, American football & Rugby players should be charged with assault, robbery with violence, conspiracy to commit assault, and in the case of hockey players, assault with a weapon? The coaches might well be charged with incitement as well as conspiracy, too.

(They cross state lines - even national borders - to commit these crimes, too! That makes it a Federal offence in America!)

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Cozmik R5
Chez Stan
#112 - 2011-10-31 07:40:34 UTC
Threads like these make me feel like EVE needs a Jerry Springer show.

Anybody got pop corn?

Try not. Do. Or do not. There is no try.

Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#113 - 2011-10-31 07:43:40 UTC
Cozmik R5 wrote:
Threads like these make me feel like EVE needs a Jerry Springer show.

Anybody got pop corn?


*nods in agreement and passes popcorn to Cozmik R5*
Chelone
Outside The Asylum
#114 - 2011-10-31 07:52:24 UTC
Abrazzar wrote:
There are no real consequences, so there is no real morality. Games are not real. Do not confuse player behaviour with real person behaviour.


As soon as CCP authorized PLEX, this was no longer a defensible position. You may as well say that having real money stolen is not a real consequence or problem IRL. Also, your argument was never very good to begin with, since time = money and all the players behind the screen are in real life.

I don't have a problem with griefers existing. As mentioned, it makes the game "interesting." The legitimate answer to "WAHH why did you gank me?!?" is "I'm RPing, the game would be boring if everyone was nice."

However, what is the motivation for "feeding off people's tears"? Is that human motivation in-game? No, it's behind the screen. Some griefers are just RPing, but many are genuine sociopaths using Eve as a tool to hurt people. That is their choice, and they're filling a role, but those who say that fulfilling their sociopathic tendencies via Eve is somehow blameless and moral are lying to themselves. The motivations of the player determine the ultimate morality of the actions, whether in Eve or outside of Eve.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#115 - 2011-10-31 08:01:48 UTC
Justin Credulent wrote:
The thing is, whether or not it's "part of the game" or "not against the rules"... the fact is your actions are still 100% your choice.

Players who try to hide behind lines like "nowhere in EVE is safe" or "the GMs allow it" or "it's just part of the game" are moral and intellectual cowards trying to pass off blame for their own actions (and guilt) onto an innocent third party.

Works both ways: anyone who hides behind “they're sociopaths", “I wasn't doing anything" or “it's illegal IRL" is a moral and intellectual coward trying to pass off blame for their own mistakes and poor choices (and accountability) onto a third party. They chose to play a full-PvP game, and then chose not to prepare for the eventuality of being engaged in PvP. That's their actions and 100% their choice - it just turned out to be a horribly bad choice and they're experiencing the consequences of that choice.

And the reason Ieave out “innocent" is because I do not live under the delusion that anyone in EVE is innocent, most certainly not the resource gatherers who make it all possible...
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#116 - 2011-10-31 08:27:57 UTC
A lot of games don't give you a moral choice. You're just not allowed to cheat, troll, scam and grief your way to victory. They don't allow you to be bad. But that also means that they don't allow you to be good.

Eve does allow you to be a bit of a git. But that means that you have to make a decision to be a good guy.

So maybe the question shouldn't be why did you leave your morality at the door, but why did you bring it in with you.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori

Alpheias
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#117 - 2011-10-31 08:50:14 UTC
Chelone wrote:
Abrazzar wrote:
There are no real consequences, so there is no real morality. Games are not real. Do not confuse player behaviour with real person behaviour.


As soon as CCP authorized PLEX, this was no longer a defensible position. You may as well say that having real money stolen is not a real consequence or problem IRL. Also, your argument was never very good to begin with, since time = money and all the players behind the screen are in real life.

I don't have a problem with griefers existing. As mentioned, it makes the game "interesting." The legitimate answer to "WAHH why did you gank me?!?" is "I'm RPing, the game would be boring if everyone was nice."

However, what is the motivation for "feeding off people's tears"? Is that human motivation in-game? No, it's behind the screen. Some griefers are just RPing, but many are genuine sociopaths using Eve as a tool to hurt people. That is their choice, and they're filling a role, but those who say that fulfilling their sociopathic tendencies via Eve is somehow blameless and moral are lying to themselves. The motivations of the player determine the ultimate morality of the actions, whether in Eve or outside of Eve.


What if I told you that I work as a dentist IRL and that I get off on the pain I inflict?

Agent of Chaos, Sower of Discord.

Don't talk to me unless you are IQ verified and certified with three references from non-family members. Please have your certificate of authenticity on hand.

Rico Minali
Sons Of 0din
Commonwealth Vanguard
#118 - 2011-10-31 09:10:35 UTC
Its a game. If you play COD do you quitly slip past the enemy sentry, or pop him one in the head even though you could have evaded him bloodlessly?

In real life I dont get to kill people, in Eve I do.

Trust me, I almost know what I'm doing.

Vyl Vit
#119 - 2011-10-31 09:21:23 UTC
Where you make your mistake is in assuming they have a morality to leave at the log-in screen. A recent study demonstrated that 85% of the Western Civ population is sociopathic. There's two types though. The major type is the chicken sociopath. They're too scared of the hangman's noose, electric chair and those neat little needles to actually act out their mentality. Only a small handful go balls to the wall and do the do.

In EVE you get the perfect environment for these affected people to act out what they're too chicken to do in real life. What's more, with CCP's odd view on morality (which is non-existent) they have no one to answer to that can pull a switch on them, so they get to heap abuse on the objects of their sociopathic behavior as icing on the cake. All they can think of to say, however, is that mundane, painfully boring rationalization that it's "not against the rules, loser."

I wouldn't worry about the game. I'd be more concerned with the safety of "advanced" civilization itself. You see. These people ARE this "society". You're encountering them in this game, but they also live in the real world. Frightening thought, isn't it? But, hey, it's Halloween. BOO!

Brought to you as a public service by People For A Civilized Civilization. All rights reserved.

Paradise is like where you are right now, only much, much better.

CCP Spitfire
C C P
C C P Alliance
#120 - 2011-10-31 09:25:15 UTC
Offtopic and inappropriate posts removed. Please keep the discussion civil.

CCP Spitfire | Marketing & Sales Team @ccp_spitfire