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Crime & Punishment

 
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What is the community's opinion on permanent wardecs?

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Seraph IX Basarab
Outer Path
Seraphim Division
#81 - 2013-04-03 22:03:20 UTC
Kelduum Revaan wrote:
The OP clearly failed our "Trolling 101" and "Alt Usage 101" classes.

Keep paying it Zeus. You need more ISK in that wallet? You only have enough for another 40 weeks...



With all do respect as a former Uni member in my first or so month of Eve, I have to say that although your intention to keep Eve Uni safe for newer players may come from a good place, you are retarding their progress. In effect you are graduating people that are competent on an Eve Uni level, but incompetent on an Eve: Online level.

You train your people to be as capable as nanny Eve Uni needs them to be. You are betraying your own supposed goals of teaching people how to play Eve and instead are keeping them in a bubble that is an unrealistic experience of what Eve Online is.

Further you go on a campaign, perhaps one of the most shamelessly bias ones, and endorse that this sort of play should be extended even further.

Now I understand some people are greifers. These people take pleasure in tormenting others perhaps the same way their personal demons torment them in their personal lives. But I'm not sure that the current course of action is the best.



Look at some of the most resilient entities in Eve. Red Alliance for example survived its first few "would be failcascades" fighting relentlessly with small cheap crappy ships. Bravery and sacrifice are rewarded rather than having losses being punished. You're really looking at it all wrong and it's very sad because I believe Eve Uni is a great entity in Eve Online.

The game needs freedom so that both good and bad things happen. If there are not villains where can the heroes be?
Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
#82 - 2013-04-03 22:37:13 UTC
Athena Maldoran wrote:
Wardecks should rise in cost after a while.. Permadecks should in my opinion only be viable if the corporations go mutual on the deck..


Why punish the people that can actually afford perma decs? I earned my isk legitimately so why punish me? Just because we can afford to do it doesnt mean 99% of the other corps in eve can. Why go to such lengths to punish the one corp that has uni perma decced?

"It is not possible either to trick or escape the mind of Zeus."

U-MAD Membership Recruitment

PoH Corporation Recruitment
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#83 - 2013-04-03 22:47:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Vimsy Vortis
Blah blah new players, blah blah subscription numbers. No facts necessary just suppose my assertions are true blah blah don't want other people playing the game at me.
Amyclas Amatin
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
#84 - 2013-04-04 01:27:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Amyclas Amatin
Having been on both ends of the stick, I don't feel that "griefing" is necessarily a bad thing.

As a noob, you blow up, you lose ships, but if you have the right attitude, each death becomes a learning experience. Without decs, many people wouldn't touch pvp until they have 10 million skill points and are feeling "ready" for it.

The people who complain are those who want the option for a softer, less competitive game - where there's something in it for everyone, and where everyone can build their capabilities "at their own pace".

As it is, dying in EVE is a slap on the wrist. The folks who do feel the pain are those who fly in disproportionately expensive ships, expecting no real opposition. While not everyone plays eve like it's their job, I don't think "casual" or "stupidly oblivious" is a playstyle for a game like EVE online.

Edit: James 315 wrote an epic 8 page article on the mittani, harping on the absurdity of the "war decs are unfair" debacle.

http://themittani.com/features/case-wardecs-appeal-reason

For more information on the New Order of High-Sec, please visit: http://www.minerbumping.com/

Remember that whenever you have a bad day in EVE, the correct reponse is "Thank you CCP, may I please have another?"
Tah'ris Khlador
Space Ghosts.
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#85 - 2013-04-04 06:55:20 UTC
Amyclas Amatin wrote:
I don't think "casual" or "stupidly oblivious" is a playstyle for a game like EVE online.


Based on some of the kills I've achieved or had the jealousy of seeing on a killboard, I would have to say that people implement those play styles anyway. The stupidly oblivious ones are really funny to shoot, because they tend to yell the loudest.

Member of the Pink Pony Killboard Padding Alliance
Amyclas Amatin
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
#86 - 2013-04-04 08:43:39 UTC
Roughly the same question, asked with a broader scope:

What is high-sec aggression intended to be?

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=222235

don't troll the bears, maybe we could actually have a sensible discussion about this debacle.

For more information on the New Order of High-Sec, please visit: http://www.minerbumping.com/

Remember that whenever you have a bad day in EVE, the correct reponse is "Thank you CCP, may I please have another?"
Haedonism Bot
People for the Ethical Treatment of Rogue Drones
#87 - 2013-04-04 11:02:27 UTC
Amyclas Amatin wrote:

don't troll the bears, maybe we could actually have a sensible discussion about this debacle.


Good luck with that.Big smile

www.everevolutionaryfront.blogspot.com

Vote Sabriz Adoudel and Tora Bushido for CSMX. Keep the Evil in EVE!
Athena Maldoran
Doomheim
#88 - 2013-04-04 11:52:07 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Athena Maldoran wrote:
Wardecks should rise in cost after a while.. Permadecks should in my opinion only be viable if the corporations go mutual on the deck..

Two questions:

1) Why should war declarations be like that?
2) Have you ever declared a war?

My guess as to your answers would be "Because I don't like having wars declared on me" and "No".


1) Imo, war cost to much atm. I would like the war to start cheap, like say at 5 mill, and next week it cost 25 mill, and the week after that it cost 50 mill. Where it ends up at what it costs today.

I do favor the agressor, but inn all wars there are times of strategic consequesnce. As in it should be cheap to start, but "expensive" to continue. If you don't like increasing the cost, take a 24 hour break, gather new intel and go deck again. In some aspect this is sort of how it is during permadecks already. There are always small periods of downtime, either with the agressor or the defender.
Why shouldnt there be? Its quite normal behaivour ^^

2) I find your question amusing...
Athena Maldoran
Doomheim
#89 - 2013-04-04 11:55:21 UTC
Zeus Maximo wrote:
Athena Maldoran wrote:
Wardecks should rise in cost after a while.. Permadecks should in my opinion only be viable if the corporations go mutual on the deck..


Why punish the people that can actually afford perma decs? I earned my isk legitimately so why punish me? Just because we can afford to do it doesnt mean 99% of the other corps in eve can. Why go to such lengths to punish the one corp that has uni perma decced?



I'm just implying that the overall war mechanic is flawed, and dont really care about you or your permadeck. I think the initial cost is to much, but the cost on keeping it going forever is to low. Basically to keep a war going forever imo, should be the mutual wars.

It only would cost a mere 24 h delay to redeck someone..
culo duro
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#90 - 2013-04-04 12:02:01 UTC
Athena Maldoran wrote:
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Athena Maldoran wrote:
Wardecks should rise in cost after a while.. Permadecks should in my opinion only be viable if the corporations go mutual on the deck..

Two questions:

1) Why should war declarations be like that?
2) Have you ever declared a war?

My guess as to your answers would be "Because I don't like having wars declared on me" and "No".


1) Imo, war cost to much atm. I would like the war to start cheap, like say at 5 mill, and next week it cost 25 mill, and the week after that it cost 50 mill. Where it ends up at what it costs today.

I do favor the agressor, but inn all wars there are times of strategic consequesnce. As in it should be cheap to start, but "expensive" to continue. If you don't like increasing the cost, take a 24 hour break, gather new intel and go deck again. In some aspect this is sort of how it is during permadecks already. There are always small periods of downtime, either with the agressor or the defender.
Why shouldnt there be? Its quite normal behaivour ^^

2) I find your question amusing...


There's a 2 week break from concord if the war drops. Also the entire thing about the weak being picked on in eve, is true. However if they want it to change they gotta be diplomatic make friends, alliances etc.

Regarding the dec fee cost. It varies from the corp size. If you got ~20 members it'll cost 50m to dec that corp per week, if it's ~1000 it's 500M per week. I do believe that the current dec mechanics work fine.

I've starting blogging http://www.epvpc.blogspot.com 
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#91 - 2013-04-04 15:25:27 UTC
Nikaroo wrote:
Ellspeth Murdron wrote:
Eve University is... getting schooled?


Ya, meanwhile we are basically part of the teacher program. Lol



The problem seems to be.. that they are quite slow learners.......

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#92 - 2013-04-04 15:34:39 UTC
Haedonism Bot wrote:
Zedrik Cayne wrote:
Amyclas Amatin wrote:
I'm in so much trouble, it couldn't get any worse. Lol

We actually believe that our rules and WSOPs will save us by discouraging war-decs. - It's a don't feed the trolls strategy, we're hoping that folks will get bored and go away.

It's carebear thinking...


Thing is, it can work. If you are boring enough, it is unprofitable and boring for the wardeccers.

And you have to be very...very...*VERY* boring. If your wardeccer gets any kills, or comments in local, at all...You are being entertaining.

Since the university is obviously not being boring and providing entertainment. They will continue to get pummelled.


That strategy definitely can work for smaller alliances with a good level of discipline, but it has never worked for EVE Uni. The Uni is just too big and too noob heavy for it. There will always be people who just ignore the rules or feel that the rules don't apply to them for some reason. People will still undock in stupid ships and do stupid things, feeding juicy kills to the war targets. Even in the old days when the war SOP was actually enforced this was the case.

The directors used to spend all their gametime during wars running around chasing members flying exhumers, haulers and the like, and blowing them up before the war targets could get the chance. The offending members would also be banned for disregarding the SOP, but even so, there was no way to stop the foolish war losses. Managing a noob-friendly corp is like herding cats at the best of times.

Also, for high profile corps like the Uni, even if they do everything with a perfect level of discipline, there will always be corps with enough isk that maintaining a wardec indefinitely is no issue. Sure, they can stay locked down and bore you for a week, maybe, but sooner or later they are going to have to undock and do things in space, or their whole organization would become irrelevant.

Also, in a related note, Kelduum Revaan just quit as CEO of E-Uni. It will be interesting to see how things change.


Problem is that they try really hard to not learn.

Other day was reading a comment a n uni member did on his own loss at killboad, claiming that he had learned the lesson that he should never undock without 2 warp core stabs ever again.

For god's sake.. its supposed to be an UNIVERSITY, teach those poor souls something! Teach them how to properly move and more important, properly fight and know what hey can fight. Both sides would have a lot more fun with that. A lot of people there could become real PVPers, but only if the Uni start to teach correct things on combat.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Amyclas Amatin
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
#93 - 2013-04-04 15:36:55 UTC
I now have this public opinion survey on high-sec aggression in google-doc form.

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1dLcM27c_qDyOIxFgE4Zan_T8j_eZDDeCUAEL4lwXGC8/viewform

Now, if the C&P folks start giving me responses, I'm going to get some very skewed results. I'm hoping to get more carebear responses. I'll probably publish the results after every week or so.

For more information on the New Order of High-Sec, please visit: http://www.minerbumping.com/

Remember that whenever you have a bad day in EVE, the correct reponse is "Thank you CCP, may I please have another?"
Amyclas Amatin
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
#94 - 2013-04-04 15:44:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Amyclas Amatin
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Problem is that they try really hard to not learn.

Other day was reading a comment a n uni member did on his own loss at killboad, claiming that he had learned the lesson that he should never undock without 2 warp core stabs ever again.

For god's sake.. its supposed to be an UNIVERSITY, teach those poor souls something! Teach them how to properly move and more important, properly fight and know what hey can fight. Both sides would have a lot more fun with that. A lot of people there could become real PVPers, but only if the Uni start to teach correct things on combat


When I was in the uni, there was also a lot of fear mongering about elite pvpers using hictors to counter the mighty warp core stab.

The uni is pretty sad. Many of them hate my guts for this post. Those who used to know me are cordial, but many seem to have been taught that I'm a bad guy.

I joined the Uni thinking that I would learn pvp and maybe even do my part, as a week old noob, to defend the Uni against the evil U-Mad. And I have to say that U-Mad is one of the best PVP teachers that the uni has. You learn more from making mistakes and getting ganked by U-Mad then you do by participating in giant roams or "dragon-slaying" fleets. It's a pity that the leadership is so insistent on its right to carebear without interference. That they hide behind newbies to push their carebear politics on the rest of EVE is just shameful.

For more information on the New Order of High-Sec, please visit: http://www.minerbumping.com/

Remember that whenever you have a bad day in EVE, the correct reponse is "Thank you CCP, may I please have another?"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#95 - 2013-04-04 18:42:44 UTC
Amyclas Amatin wrote:
And I have to say that U-Mad is one of the best PVP teachers that the uni has. You learn more from making mistakes and getting ganked by U-Mad then you do by participating in giant roams or "dragon-slaying" fleets. It's a pity that the leadership is so insistent on its right to carebear without interference. That they hide behind newbies to push their carebear politics on the rest of EVE is just shameful.



Always glad to help (not joking). We play for having fun, we are not sociopaths and Uni players could learn a lot paying attention on why they died and what we and others do when they engage in combat. That would give better fights for both sides even!

admitign your own mistakes is the second most important part of learning PVP, the first part is undocking and trying. No one saying its smart for a newbie to use his frigate alone against 7 U-Mad gang. But never undocking without warp core stabs is not the way either. When an Uni pilot dies he should ask to people (in their corp or otside corps) that know to PVP, What they did wrong. Then maybe.. they could learn and have more fun.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Tarsas Phage
Sniggerdly
#96 - 2013-04-04 20:54:09 UTC
Amyclas Amatin wrote:

The uni is pretty sad. Many of them hate my guts for this post. Those who used to know me are cordial, but many seem to have been taught that I'm a bad guy.


e-uni does a decent job teaching the mechanics of PVP... and by that I mean general ship fits, how the basic tactical moves such as brawling, kiting and stand-off work, and other such piloting-your-ship theories.

What they fall out on teaching - and it itself a nebulous and very cerebral thing - is the mindset involved in the different arenas of PVP, and how certain frames of mind are invalid for some situations but required for others. This is stuff that's hard to teach let alone hook into, and it all can't be bullet-pointed on a wiki or just hand-waved with a quick explanation. The kicker is that this is where the real confidence stems from. Being able to read a situation, knowing what you might be up against, how to bend it in as much favor to yourself as possible, and so on... all these details which add up to give you a mental picture of the situation you're in or are considering on entering.

I admit that I don't have direct experience inside the uni, but my impression is that, probably for reasons of sheer volume and perhaps the need of brevity, the environment required to learn these mindsets just doesn't exist and that it's very much a follow-the-teacher methodology. It's unfortunate when someone graduates thinking they've covered it all, but then are disappointed or bewildered once outside that controlled environment.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#97 - 2013-04-06 22:21:07 UTC
Amyclas Amatin wrote:
http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Student_Guidance_Department


Oh no, that it just unbearable. I seem to spend most of my work life fighting against this nonsense and to see it in game is just too much.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Hammar Wolf
Money First
#98 - 2013-04-07 02:35:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Hammar Wolf
Zappity wrote:
Amyclas Amatin wrote:
http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Student_Guidance_Department


Oh no, that it just unbearable. I seem to spend most of my work life fighting against this nonsense and to see it in game is just too much.


Seems a part of this thread is about Eve Uni, and a part about the actual question on war decs, which may or may not be just an excuse to discuss Eve Uni and UMAD.

- On war decs, there is no such thing as a permanent war dec. There is just a war victim that is unable to find the right configuration of means to end it, and is probably doing the opposite, encouraging a pvp corp to re-up the war dec fee because of the isk and tears they collect. There is always a way to end the war dec. Pay money, hire other pvpers/mercs, stop putting noob pilots into shiny ships.

- The only cost that should be increased is for the jackwagons that declare a war on your target, because they saw how much isk you were extracting in the war reports, and decided to muscle in on the action. Of course, more than likely, they just keep your victims from moving in their isk laden ships by fail jumping into the system and sitting at the undock like clowns.

- Don't know Eve Uni. Have fought with UMAD. Have a feeling we're all going to get to know each other real soon though.

- Who is this James315 windbag that opines for 8 pages and tries to convince people by deriding them as theme park carebears and their views as nonsensical? http://themittani.com/features/case-wardecs-appeal-reason?page=0%2C0

F1 Platoon leader