These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Resource Redistribution
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#81 - 2013-04-03 13:34:35 UTC
DrClit wrote:
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
You still have to set up a POS, manage it and collect your moongoo. it's not quite as passive as R&D agents for instance.


It's still passive COLLECTION. Just like research points with R+D agents.

Exactly the same.

You're not there like a miner mining it.

And managing a POS isn't like grinding the standings to get a level 4 agent, too. Managing a POS is adding fuel once a week; any blueprints (which can be done at a corp office); maybe defending it if attacked. Moon goo is essentially harvested passively (100 units) per harvester; and automatically stored in its silo; where its fed into whatever reactor or other processing source. Players aren't standing there to do any of that stuff 24/7. At most it's switching blueprints; diverting any of that moon goo to switch the blueprint; and onlining it again (but that's not happening with the Tech, it's set to be a 24/7 passively collected and made product).

When folks say it's a passive income, it is. I wish I could automatically mine and refine.


You are forgetting the many hours sat at the machine playing 0.01 games with the bots to make your reaction profit effective.
You are forgetting the many hours of hauling material to your system through many danagerous unknowns
You are forgetting the many hours of waiting for fuel to be created so you can move it to your poses (which can take a long time)
You are forgetting all of the decisions being made as to how to move products
The many conversations you have to create understanding with people so you can move safely through space
Come to think that in a pos there can be as little as 400m+ on show to everyone at all time
Null sec is a completely different agenda since there are intel channels and there is back up and you are a target but not all POS moon mining / reacting is as easy as sticking it on a moon and waiting to get paid.

Whilst the act of moon mining can be seen to be passive the actual maintenance and management that can take hours up to days to complete makes this just as much an active source of income and passive. But so to are all other forms of making isk.



You are forgetting that what you list is a player mechanic not game mechanic. Profit is a decision and a matter of effort, not CCP's realm of how things work. You don't need to sell the items at the time of passively harvesting them. You CAN stock pile them and worry about moving them in bulk, or have specific buy orders already in place, and let a marketeer have the chore of playing the bot battler.

Hell, you can maybe, I dunno, have an arrangement, for the same of that product.... if you are the one in charge of harvesting it, transporting, and selling it.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#82 - 2013-04-03 13:44:33 UTC
Georgina Parmala wrote:
Rez Valintine wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:


What is 75,000 ISK/unit times 100 Units?

Is it:
a) 7.5 million ISK
or
b) some other number?



umm, b?

You got the answer right!
POS fuel alone will knock it down to just over 7. Then there are transportation costs, sov bills and whatnot i can't be bothered to try to calculate.

Here's something I am willing to take a stab at though.
Malcanis wrote:
You seem to have some wrong assumptions about the value of mining Technetium. A Tech pos makes 7.2 million ISK per hour. A Mack mining Veldspar in empire makes about 10M/hr last I checked.

So a single mack has to spend just over 17 hours per day mining to match the income. What does it take for the moon to match the effort in man hours?

A 500 man 2-hour CTA will have an opportunity cost of 1,000 man hours. This means that if the moon is threatened at a rate of once every 58 days causing such a CTA, the income and effort will match that of shooting rocks in high sec (plus the effort of running the POS, moving the stuff, selling it etc). Assuming the defense fleet has no losses that is. If it does, you make less and increase the effort by having to rebuild/haul something. At that point, you might as well go mine veld in high as a "corp op".

Doubling the size of the fleet, means having to show up and defend it at a rate of once every 4 months for two hours to break even.

Another comparison:
I have three characters (just one account worth) doing PI. I passively make 2.75 mil an hour "for free with no effort". And I only have the relevant skills to level 4 on all three characters. I would venture the management effort and logistics are comparable. Three accounts would surpass the moon income. Two with perfect skills and a more efficient setup, than what I can be bothered to maintain. The system I am in can probably support up to 8-10 accounts doing so, or ~4 Tech moons worth. I would also wager the number of systems like this far exceeds 500.

We're talking about moon income in the neighborhood of 5.4 bil a month on an alliance level. My tiny insignificant corp makes half that just off the PI taxes.


So how's about an easier way to balance something like this? Good moons, bad planets. Good plantes, bad moons. Suddenly you have relatively balanced resource potential region to region, without something as ludicrous as the suggestion in the OP. Is it a conflict driver? That depends. Do you want to haul in POS fuel? Or take some systems with bad moons, but fuel producing planets? Or maybe a trade deal with your neighbor is in order?

So you are saying you HAVE to have 500 man CTA's in order to run a pos? OR are you talking about the social agenda of making sure you make a profit.. you know.. SECURITY, which you need to do in order to hold sov anyways...

Nothing to do with the actual moon mining process.

Just like you don't HAVE to pay the 10mil permit to mine, or HAVE to have an orca to get bonuses to your afk/ATK mining.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#83 - 2013-04-03 13:48:58 UTC
You know, if moongoo is such a worthless commodity and doesn't really drive any conflict, let's just make it worthless.

All the people in charge of handling it are saying it's worthless, everyone who doesn't involve it aren't going to be involved, all it does is allow forum posts to get locked and spammed.

Just remove the crap.

Make it worthless. Not involved.

1 cry from anyone with a stockpile can be shown to be a liar then.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#84 - 2013-04-03 14:13:53 UTC
You know, I like how people keep trying to treat moongoo differently from PI extraction, manufacturing, copying and invention, considering all of them are mostly AFK activities.

Moongoo requires a POS, fuel, emptying of silos (or in the case of direct reaction, topping up of input silos and emptying of full output silos), and a defense fleet (where ships die) if it's a valuable moon. PI requires you press a button every 4 hours to once every week, manufacturing lets you press a button once every 30 days if you like, likewise with BP copying and invention. All of them require some sort of input at some point in the process.

But it's only moongoo that people ***** about being "AFK". vOv

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#85 - 2013-04-03 15:05:11 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
You know, I like how people keep trying to treat moongoo differently from PI extraction, manufacturing, copying and invention, considering all of them are mostly AFK activities.

Moongoo requires a POS, fuel, emptying of silos (or in the case of direct reaction, topping up of input silos and emptying of full output silos), and a defense fleet (where ships die) if it's a valuable moon. PI requires you press a button every 4 hours to once every week, manufacturing lets you press a button once every 30 days if you like, likewise with BP copying and invention. All of them require some sort of input at some point in the process.

But it's only moongoo that people ***** about being "AFK". vOv



I'd be far more excited if any 1 of my PI installations brought anywhere near 7mil an hour. I would gladly shut up at that point.

As it is, with 3 in lowsec and 1 in highsec I am maybe making 38mil every 3 days(at its very best).

Hurray for passive income!

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2013-04-03 15:07:53 UTC
Does your PI require defense fleets? Does it require fuel? Does it require anything other than you pressing a button every now and again?

No? Well shucks, no monster payout for you then.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
WTFAMILOOKINGAT
Horizon Research Group
#87 - 2013-04-03 15:08:19 UTC
Haha ninja mining to bring down empires, that's rich. I swear once you think you've seen it all these forums come back with something like that. Quite a day-brightener if nothing else.
Krax As
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#88 - 2013-04-03 15:12:56 UTC
from personal experience I can safely say PI is not passive. Yeah the extractors keep working and the factories produce while I am not at the PC, but I have to do a hell lot of hauling and clicking and such with three toons to make my fuels.

There is NO passive income in the game. All activities need player actions to set up and maintain. Some require more, some require less. But they all need attention sooner or later.

It is not technetium that is the problem, it it the inability of CCP and the eve players to cope with so large entities in the game that it they can become cartels in a given market.

losses in eve are "real". losing a ship might not be an ISK sink for the game, but it sure is a loss for the players.
And as long as it appeals more to have higher chances on winning by simply joining the larger forces instead of fighting them, it will stay that way.

with the current pvp and game and sov mechanics, it takes

a: a gigantic, very dedicated force of people to get and hold sov (because structure grinding is sooo boring)

and

b: another very large force to effectively fight and be a threat to another large force.

eve in its current state offers no chance, no strategy or tactic to effectively fight a gueriila war.
there are no significant supply lanes to attack, no factories to sabotage, no way to injure opponents to slow the enemy down, no way to fight a war of burned ground and make the systems under attack effectively worthless thus uniteresting to invade.

or to put ist simpler: the game and CCP and the rest of the player base was just not prepared and ready for groups of people more dedicated and determined them themselves. and these groups didnt form in the game, but came from the outside.

i dont know what is more disturbing: the fact that people whine about the goons and the other large nulsec entities or the fact that CCP almost openly admit that these people have such a drastic effect not only on the events in game, but the very game itself.
Krax As
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#89 - 2013-04-03 15:21:08 UTC
and no matter how the resource distribution will be changed:

those much better organized entities will

a: understand the consequences faster
b: be much faster to react to them
c: adapt and mold the eve-universe to get the most benefit out of those changes.

people cry out to CCP to "make those bad cartels go away" instead of thinking

"geeze, how did this happen ? how can we react ? what needs to be done?"

and then freakin do it. but not by posting stupid stuff
and complaining. if you are not willing to put in immense hours of work , talking, planning, trying out and failing and going back the drawing board you should stop talking about unthroning anyone....

its a sandbox. and some have built quiet a few very very large castles. so either you accept that and play with whats left in the sandbox or leave it and play with something else.

my advice would be to gang up with all the other ones that are just a jealous about those gigantig castles and just stomp them down.
but that would require maybe some talking to real people and forming some kind of bond. and all that ina casual game after work. sorry, I know I couldn´t do that.... and it seems to me like not many in this game can or it would have been done already.

Emu Meo
Doomheim
#90 - 2013-04-03 16:05:55 UTC
Krax As wrote:
and no matter how the resource distribution will be changed:

those much better organized entities will

a: understand the consequences faster
b: be much faster to react to them
c: adapt and mold the eve-universe to get the most benefit out of those changes.

people cry out to CCP to "make those bad cartels go away" instead of thinking

"geeze, how did this happen ? how can we react ? what needs to be done?"

and then freakin do it. but not by posting stupid stuff
and complaining. if you are not willing to put in immense hours of work , talking, planning, trying out and failing and going back the drawing board you should stop talking about unthroning anyone....

its a sandbox. and some have built quiet a few very very large castles. so either you accept that and play with whats left in the sandbox or leave it and play with something else.

my advice would be to gang up with all the other ones that are just a jealous about those gigantig castles and just stomp them down.
but that would require maybe some talking to real people and forming some kind of bond. and all that ina casual game after work. sorry, I know I couldn´t do that.... and it seems to me like not many in this game can or it would have been done already.



To put it simply game mechanics should be fun and encourage interesting gameplay. Right now moon mining is quite boring even for the large null sec alliances who hold them.

Also eve is not a limitless sandbox as you seem to imply, as the name suggests you are playing within a sand"box", designed by CCP to encourage fun and emergent gameplay.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#91 - 2013-04-03 16:14:10 UTC
Emu Meo wrote:
To put it simply game mechanics should be fun and encourage interesting gameplay.

Wakeupcall: you're talking about EVE here.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Krax As
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#92 - 2013-04-03 16:22:16 UTC
Emu Meo wrote:


To put it simply game mechanics should be fun and encourage interesting gameplay. Right now moon mining is quite boring even for the large null sec alliances who hold them.

Also eve is not a limitless sandbox as you seem to imply, as the name suggests you are playing within a sand"box", designed by CCP to encourage fun and emergent gameplay.



i never implied it .. the boundaries are quiet large and easily reached.
the look at the sov map and the way sov is reached / held clearly shows it.

in fact as the average toon in the game gets older and older and the amount of alt subs increases (I dont belive the actual player base as per human beings grows as much as we would like it to do) the sandbox gets smaller and smaller.

and for a newbie player I bet it feels like all shovels are taken and the whole lot is already divided up...
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#93 - 2013-04-03 17:11:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Murk Paradox
Lord Zim wrote:
Does your PI require defense fleets? Does it require fuel? Does it require anything other than you pressing a button every now and again?

No? Well shucks, no monster payout for you then.



Guess that means using it to compare is poor judgement then. However, thanks for confirming the "large payout" that some people in these threads are trying to argue.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#94 - 2013-04-03 17:18:22 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Guess that means using it to compare is poor judgement then.

It's still just as much "passive income" as moongoo is. vOv

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#95 - 2013-04-03 17:24:15 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Guess that means using it to compare is poor judgement then.

It's still just as much "passive income" as moongoo is. vOv



On a much much smaller scale, sure.

L1 missions are just as active as L4 missions too, in regards to active income streams.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#96 - 2013-04-03 17:31:26 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Murk Paradox wrote:
You know, if moongoo is such a worthless commodity and doesn't really drive any conflict, let's just make it worthless.

All the people in charge of handling it are saying it's worthless, everyone who doesn't involve it aren't going to be involved, all it does is allow forum posts to get locked and spammed.


And, as seems to be the case whenever you claim people are saying something, nobody is saying that it's worthless.

We are just saying that it is Not True that "nobody can compete with Tech Income." And we've demonstrated (repeatedly), exactly how one person (or a group of people) can (and have) compete[d] with Tech Income.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#97 - 2013-04-03 17:49:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Murk Paradox
RubyPorto wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
You know, if moongoo is such a broken commodity and doesn't really drive any conflict, let's just make it worthless.

All the people in charge of handling it are saying it's broken, everyone who doesn't involve it aren't going to be involved, all it does is allow forum posts to get locked and spammed.


And, as seems to be the case whenever you claim people are saying something, nobody is saying that it's worthless.

We are just saying that it is Not True that "nobody can compete with Tech Income." And we've demonstrated (repeatedly), exactly how one person (or a group of people) can (and have) compete[d] with Tech Income.



Rephrased.

And no, you haven't demonstrated. You've used instances that don't compare to say they don't compare, but compete, which they don't, because they are different.

Income stream is income stream right?

First you used ice mining and 500 mackinaws as comparison to the # of tech moons. then you used the people who own set # of tech moons, then you used different levels of rates (Tippia did as well) to convalute such an idea back and forth to make it illegible.

Then claimed to have proven it? You've wrecked any sort of order out of the situation. You didn't prove or demonstrate anything to show how it could be compared or competed with (you keep saying you aren't trying to compare but in essence that needs to be done) , but used an entire seperate formula to come to the same number.

That's like saying you can scam 1 person out of 5bil at one time logging in once per month and that would be competitive to moon mining.

There's has even been seperate arguments to use fleets and defenses and cta's and man hours to show different variables that do not apply to ice mining, because if they were, the figures would be way different.

You even used stocks and bonds as an argument!

They aren't competitive or comparable either! They are 2 very seperate and different ways to make money. One matures over time, the other is using a variable market to change prices based on what someone is willing to pay for them (most tech moon holders I don't think even want to sell the moongoo based on the use of production).

Apples and oranges might both be fruits, but they aren't the same by a long shot.


You can't even state a simple sentence of explanation without using variables to try to prove a point. --> "And we've demonstrated (repeatedly), exactly how one person (or a group of people) can (and have) compete[d] with Tech Income."

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#98 - 2013-04-03 18:25:01 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Nobody's saying that it wasn't broken, so what's your point?

Now there's Alchemy.

Murk Paradox wrote:
Rephrased.

And no, you haven't demonstrated. You've used instances that don't compare to say they don't compare, but compete, which they don't, because they are different.

Income stream is income stream right?

First you used ice mining and 500 mackinaws as comparison to the # of tech moons. then you used the people who own set # of tech moons, then you used different levels of rates (Tippia did as well) to convalute such an idea back and forth to make it illegible.

Then claimed to have proven it? You've wrecked any sort of order out of the situation. You didn't prove or demonstrate anything to show how it could be compared or competed with (you keep saying you aren't trying to compare but in essence that needs to be done) , but used an entire seperate formula to come to the same number.


If you can reliably make more than 5b per month doing any activity, you can, individually, compete with the income from a Tech moon (which no individual can successfully hold).
If your group of 10,000 (parity with GSF) can reliably make more than 250m/month doing any activity, you can compete with the sum total income from all Tech moons in the game.

That's all I've been saying. Ice mining was just an example of how trivial it is to compete with the income from a Tech moon. And to point out that there's a fixed number of Tech moons (under 500), so 500 Mackinaws mining Ice will produce more income than the sum total income of all Tech moons for the time that they are mining.

Quote:
That's like saying you can scam 1 person out of 5bil at one time logging in once per month and that would be competitive to moon mining.
Nope.

Quote:
There's has even been seperate arguments to use fleets and defenses and cta's and man hours to show different variables that do not apply to ice mining, because if they were, the figures would be way different.

You even used stocks and bonds as an argument!

They aren't competitive or comparable either! They are 2 very seperate and different ways to make money. One matures over time, the other is using a variable market to change prices based on what someone is willing to pay for them (most tech moon holders I don't think even want to sell the moongoo based on the use of production).


And yet, though they're not directly comparable, stocks and bonds are competitive income sources.

Quote:
You can't even state a simple sentence of explanation without using variables to try to prove a point. --> "And we've demonstrated (repeatedly), exactly how one person (or a group of people) can (and have) compete[d] with Tech Income."


Mine Ice 24/7 or Run missions for 5 hrs a day, or run ~5 reaction POSes, or run Incursions for an hour and a half a day.

All ways for an individual to compete with the income from a Tech moon.

A comparable group of people to the owners of Tech moons has it even easier. 25hrs of Ice mining/month per person, or 5hrs of Missions per month, or 2 and a half hours of Incursions per month. And that's to match the sum total income of All Tech moons in the game.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#99 - 2013-04-03 18:25:47 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:

So you are saying you HAVE to have 500 man CTA's in order to run a pos? OR are you talking about the social agenda of making sure you make a profit.. you know.. SECURITY, which you need to do in order to hold sov anyways...

Nothing to do with the actual moon mining process.

Just like you don't HAVE to pay the 10mil permit to mine, or HAVE to have an orca to get bonuses to your afk/ATK mining.


Security. It's very much a part of the mining process. A reinforced or dead POS is not going to be doing any moon mining.
Just like it's a part of my free passive PI income. It's "free" and "passive" as long as I have system control, my POCO's stay up and I don't get blown up tending to it - with no local.
Just like an ATK miner is not going to be doing any untanked exhumer max yield mining in a belt ,surrounded by barge wrecks with a dozen pirates in the system.

It's up to others to create the risk and workload. If no one in the sand box is trying to stomp your castle it will stand, no matter how shoddy your construction is.

What if everyone who has ever posted complaining about moongoons, suddenly got together for a monthly event to try to reinforce a moon mining pos. They don't even need to actually reinforce it. Just create enough of a threat to force a defense fleet to form and GTFO.

Would that make moons:
A) free passive income
B) a conflict driver
C) something that needs to be removed from the game, because no one has the balls for B resulting in A

Murk Paradox wrote:

I'd be far more excited if any 1 of my PI installations brought anywhere near 7mil an hour. I would gladly shut up at that point.

As it is, with 3 in lowsec and 1 in highsec I am maybe making 38mil every 3 days(at its very best).

Hurray for passive income!


Two problems with your logic here.

First, you claim you make approximately 527,777 isk an hour. Fair enough. I make ~2,500,000 - 2,700,000 an hour making P2 POS fuel components. I could do better if I was not so lazy about it. Both in finishing training and the maintenance of it.
This leads me to conclude that one or more of the following are true:
A) You are using poor planets, or these planets are overpopulated by others already
B) Your skills are very low
C) Your setup is inefficient
D) Your choice of product is poor

It's fairly obvious that at least B is true. You have 4 planets. This means you have Interplanetary consolidation at 3. Which leads me to believe all your PI skills are around 3, meaning you probably don't even have advanced planetology injected.

Which leads into the other logic problem
You are comparing a single character (not even an account, just one character) with 1 week worth of training. To the income generated by a rare, alliance asset held though the efforts of hundreds of individuals. It only takes 13 people doing what you're doing to match a Tech Moon. Can 13 people take and hold one? Does your corp have at least 12 other characters making similar PI income?

How much effort is put into a Tech Moon is up to other players, not CCP. That's at the heart of the idea of a "conflict driver".

Science and Trade Institute [STI] is an NPC entity and as such my views do not represent those of the entity or any of its members

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=276984&p=38
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#100 - 2013-04-03 18:36:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Murk Paradox
Georgina Parmala wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:

So you are saying you HAVE to have 500 man CTA's in order to run a pos? OR are you talking about the social agenda of making sure you make a profit.. you know.. SECURITY, which you need to do in order to hold sov anyways...

Nothing to do with the actual moon mining process.

Just like you don't HAVE to pay the 10mil permit to mine, or HAVE to have an orca to get bonuses to your afk/ATK mining.


Security. It's very much a part of the mining process. A reinforced or dead POS is not going to be doing any moon mining.
Just like it's a part of my free passive PI income. It's "free" and "passive" as long as I have system control, my POCO's stay up and I don't get blown up tending to it - with no local.
Just like an ATK miner is not going to be doing any untanked exhumer max yield mining in a belt ,surrounded by barge wrecks with a dozen pirates in the system.

It's up to others to create the risk and workload. If no one in the sand box is trying to stomp your castle it will stand, no matter how shoddy your construction is.

What if everyone who has ever posted complaining about moongoons, suddenly got together for a monthly event to try to reinforce a moon mining pos. They don't even need to actually reinforce it. Just create enough of a threat to force a defense fleet to form and GTFO.

Would that make moons:
A) free passive income
B) a conflict driver
C) something that needs to be removed from the game, because no one has the balls for B resulting in A

Murk Paradox wrote:

I'd be far more excited if any 1 of my PI installations brought anywhere near 7mil an hour. I would gladly shut up at that point.

As it is, with 3 in lowsec and 1 in highsec I am maybe making 38mil every 3 days(at its very best).

Hurray for passive income!


Two problems with your logic here.

First, you claim you make approximately 527,777 isk an hour. Fair enough. I make ~2,500,000 - 2,700,000 an hour making P2 POS fuel components. I could do better if I was not so lazy about it. Both in finishing training and the maintenance of it.
This leads me to conclude that one or more of the following are true:
A) You are using poor planets, or these planets are overpopulated by others already
B) Your skills are very low
C) Your setup is inefficient
D) Your choice of product is poor

It's fairly obvious that at least B is true. You have 4 planets. This means you have Interplanetary consolidation at 3. Which leads me to believe all your PI skills are around 3, meaning you probably don't even have advanced planetology injected.

Which leads into the other logic problem
You are comparing a single character (not even an account, just one character) with 1 week worth of training. To the income generated by a rare, alliance asset held though the efforts of hundreds of individuals. It only takes 13 people doing what you're doing to match a Tech Moon. Can 13 people take and hold one? Does your corp have at least 12 other characters making similar PI income?

How much effort is put into a Tech Moon is up to other players, not CCP. That's at the heart of the idea of a "conflict driver".



Kind of all of them since I prefer active incomes over passive. But that's not the point. That's a social aspect on my part, not a mechanic. Same with your reference to security. I too am lazy with the PI since that was an experiment into something that could alleviate my time during wardecs. Your comparison of having to use the examples of 1 person versus an alliance needed is spot on btw! And has been my point. They are not comparable because the level of activity is so great and filled with variables, they do not belong in the same comparison!

The need to keep your areas protected is in poor planning/poor choices, not a requirement to run it. If that was the case, I don't think Goons could keep more than 5 moons total based on the member roster/man hours needed for all those CTA's you claim are "required" for moon mining. Let alone their campaigns or other endeavors.

And Ruby, plenty of people, especially from Goons, have said and resaid and repeated again, that they have clamored about how broken moongoo was.

How can stocks and bonds be competitive incomes if they can be cumulative? There is no only choose one scenario involving them. Therefore they are not competitive. They can be on the "same team" as to not NEED to "compete" at all.

That's almost saying the offense competes with the defense of a sports team. They are both needed to win the game, but use different methods to attain that same goal.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.