Jita Park Speakers Corner

An NDA does not stop the Devs posting in Tweetfleet and being civil, I hardly think it is an excuse. If CCP are directly working on a feature fair enough.

Now if they are spending 15-20 hours a week, surely the officers have time to post here and respond to people

And lets face it now we have rules governing officers
Thus, CSM Officers are expected to be the most active members of the CSM.

And if they are not, they should be booted out.

I also noticed Trebor did not answer that persons question as to what he thinks the CSMs job is.

If he acknowledges it at all (I doubt he will, I'm a ~goon~ after all which means randoms probably will just ignore me as a matter of course), it'll be some milquetoast appeal-to-authority "in my experience" bull that doesn't even actually address the problem.

His DNS attack dogs Tcar and Friggz may well pop in with another edition of "I can't believe you don't love Trebor like we do!", though.



That's my worry. His "CCP first, players distant second" methods are poison, and should die with CSM 7 instead of being passed on to a new group of represenatives who may well do much better on their own.

Frankly I think it speaks volumes that when asked what CSMs job is we get a task list.

And the fact he doesn't say his job in the CSM is to represent the players. And lobbying for the resources is only a small part of it. As Two Step proved so well when we were all looking at the shaft.

I may hassle Two Step and call him the C5-C6 CSM Member but he did more good for the game as a whole with his actions regarding POS than some of the rest of you achieved in a year.

I guess it would be hard to address a thing like "why was the guy so unafraid to start controversy with players for CCP's benefit be so reluctant to do the opposite". Well, hard to address without turning to Trebor and saying "hey, yeah, what WAS the deal with that?".

Bottom line is, he was perfectly willing to risk angering large parts of the playerbase for CCP's benefit and unwilling to risk angering CCP for the players' benefit. That's about as close to 1+1=2 as you can get.

Why not? I recommend you and Trebor every time I post.

I agree. There seems to be a popular fallacy that CCP are under constant pressure to "WoWify" EVE in order to make more money (when I say it's a popular fallacy, I mean it's popular with a certain subset of the playerbase) but never yet has anyone been able to point to an example of this working, still less how it could be expected to work specifically for EVE. And there are also examples of it failing badly. (Star Wars NGE)

Despite the utter lack of evidence for it, and the large amount of evidence against it, the fallacy persists, along with the assumption that CCP are stupid enough to believe it too.

That's the funny thing, this isn't hyperbole, this is something he admitted to yesterday. I'll explain this in some depth for the benefit of others that may read (and you, just in case you aren't just being intentionally obtuse to back ~your guy~).

Trebor's had no problems going to bat for CCP. He went so far in this that he actually argued for some pretty drastic changes to the game (the removal of non-consensual wardecs) in the name of CCP improving their bottom line. Going to bat for CCP isn't a problem on its own, though doing in the name of their bottom line is a touch gross.

Where this really starts to get ugly is him admitting that he was against Two Step's threadnought.

CCP's wishes to back-burner future POS work became quite clear with the publishing of the Winter Summit minutes. We've all read the choice quotes by now. This was basically backing the CSM into a corner - everyone and their dog knows that large portions of the game have been clamoring for POS love for a while now, and here's CCP being rather dismissive of that, in spite of whatever work may have been done before the Summit to convince them otherwise. You've exhausted your official behind-the-scenes options and CCP still isn't listening, and yet the issue is too important to let go - that's threadnought time if there ever has been. Two Step certainly thought so, and Trebor's own blog post on the subject says that Two Step had to go rogue to do it as the CSM did not have his back on this. Trebor said himself* that he didn't support the idea either, claiming that he was "reasonably confident that we were going to get some love for POSes already" (this despite the aformentioned dismissive language in the Summit, and Two Step and presumably others' interpretation of those very same words).

That's clear as day. When the chips were down and it was time to show the players that you care about the actual game, Trebor balked, and balked for very spurious reasons (he's probably the only person on the planet who read those summit minutes and came away feeling POSITIVE about CCP's willingness to give POS some love any time this decade). Drawing the conclusion that CCP is more important to him than the players who allowed him to even share a table with CCP by voting him in is not an unreasonable conclusion. Disagree all you like, that's fine, but don't try to paint the conclusion as invalid.

I don't know what color the sky is in your world, but here in reality, here's what Trebor actually said about it:



Trebor was in favor of going to bat against CCP. He simply disagreed on best course of action to do that. He wanted to be able to go to CCP and say "We did this research, this is what we found, this is why we need the POS changes." Two Step felt it better to strike while the iron was hot, so to speak. The difference was strategy, not agenda.

In other words you are either mistaken or intentionally attempting to deceive. I'll leave it up to the peanut gallery to take their pick on that one, but I know which one I'd go with if I were a betting man.

This is revisionist history at its worst, and if taken seriously is actually an indictment of the CSM's performance leading up to the Winter Summit.

I'm sure the CSM had done work trying to sell CCP on the idea that POSes badly needed love, modular or otherwise, so much to the point where I'd feel comfortable calling it a "sky is blue" issue. CCP knows it. CSM knows it. Players know it. However, the attitudes during the Summit quite clearly showed that, despite knowing this, CCP still didn't feel it was worth working on any time soon.

You can go two ways with this:

1. CSM had done all they can, and CCP still wasn't buying what they were selling. This is either time to let the issue go, or time for a threadnought, depending on how important it is.

2. CSM had failed in their task to convince CCP that POS love was important to enough players to warrant immediate work. This suggests that CCP was willing if the CSM had made a good case, but they hadn't.

Truthfully, I'd lean far more to #1, as it's CCP in a nutshell.

If Trebor's assumption that going back to the "same old" of proposals and meetings would have worked, it leans far more towards #2, as it suggests that CCP *can* be sold on the idea, but that the CSM just hadn't done it yet. For a council of Eve Online players in 2012 to not adequately push the idea to CCP that POS love was a critical issue is so ludicrous that IF IT WERE TRUE, it'd put CSM 7 down around the first 3 or 4 CSM's on the "completely worthless" scale. Two Step going the threadnought route also suggests that he pretty massively disagreed with the idea that CCP could be convinced by traditional means (and guess what? He was right!).

At the end of the day, he and anyone who didn't back that threadnought ****** up, big time. He's certainly not the only one who did, but given how it's only him and Greene Lee who are even running again, he gets to be the focus of it.

(Also congrats on your totally-not-going-to-be-the-attack-dog posts :v )