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Give freighters low slots.
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Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#21 - 2013-04-02 18:00:42 UTC
John Brewster wrote:
Mag's wrote:

Neither of those links prove freighter ganking has 'exploded' since Teir 3 BC. The first talks of the rise of ganking, but without figures to prove this. The second only shows freighter ganks in 2012. For your assertion to be correct, we'll need figures before the introduction and after. A year either side will do, with proof of course.

The fact you keep forgetting with this princiiple, is this. With your change, no matter what fitting you put on a freighter, it wouldn't be as good as now.You will not be able to have more EHP, cargo, speed etc etc. This change means a nerf.

So why do you want to nerf the freighter?


It's a bit weird that an experienced player like you keeps misunderstanding such an easy topic.

Since you are rewriting the stats, you can do so in such a way that, for example, with 3 Cargo Expander II a freighter would have exactly the same stats as today. If you take off the expanders, you lose cargo capacity, but gain some other thing, for example tank, or speed, or whatever. This is a buff, not a nerf.

Also, this is not a trial, the links are enough to get a good feeling of the situation, and CPP does have the stats to verify, if they need.

If you disagree that freighter ganking is skyrocketing, feel free to provide proof of this. A year either side will do, with proof of course.
JB


why does the freighter need to be tougher? why cant the carebears take measures to avoid ganking?

if u agree that freighter ganking is skyrocketing, feel free to provide proof of this. A year wither side will do, with proof of course.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#22 - 2013-04-02 18:08:36 UTC
John Brewster wrote:
Mag's wrote:

Neither of those links prove freighter ganking has 'exploded' since Teir 3 BC. The first talks of the rise of ganking, but without figures to prove this. The second only shows freighter ganks in 2012. For your assertion to be correct, we'll need figures before the introduction and after. A year either side will do, with proof of course.

The fact you keep forgetting with this princiiple, is this. With your change, no matter what fitting you put on a freighter, it wouldn't be as good as now.You will not be able to have more EHP, cargo, speed etc etc. This change means a nerf.

So why do you want to nerf the freighter?


It's a bit weird that an experienced player like you keeps misunderstanding such an easy topic.

Since you are rewriting the stats, you can do so in such a way that, for example, with 3 Cargo Expander II a freighter would have exactly the same stats as today. If you take off the expanders, you lose cargo capacity, but gain some other thing, for example tank, or speed, or whatever. This is a buff, not a nerf.

Also, this is not a trial, the links are enough to get a good feeling of the situation, and CPP does have the stats to verify, if they need.

If you disagree that freighter ganking is skyrocketing, feel free to provide proof of this. A year either side will do, with proof of course.
JB


1. If you put 3 cargo expanders on a freighter it would have less structure HP and be slower. No really.

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Beta_Hull_Mod_Expanded_Cargo

Maximum Velocity Penalty
-12 %

Structure HP bonus
-22 %

And that is for each expander. Put 3 of them on there and structure HP will drop by over 52%. Since this is where most of the freighters HP are it would be a serious hit to the freighters tank. In terms of overall tank, if I did the math right, the tank on an obelisk will fall by just a bit over 1/3rd.

As for proving that freighter ganking is not skyrocketing, it is logically impossible to prove a negative.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#23 - 2013-04-02 18:15:57 UTC
Aside from all discussion about whether or not freighters should have fitting slots, or some means of extra carrying capacity (I think they should have the latter, in the form of split cargo bays. IE, the regular cargo hold, then a fuel/ammo/modules/ore bay, or something, that way you could carry far more than 1million ME, but not be able to pack around carriers:


It only takes 6 talos to gank a freighter, not 8.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#24 - 2013-04-02 18:22:30 UTC
Arronicus wrote:
I think they should have the latter, in the form of split cargo bays. IE, the regular cargo hold, then a fuel/ammo/modules/ore bay, or something, that way you could carry far more than 1million ME, but not be able to pack around carriers:


u really need more space? and then a month down the line people want MOAR space...and then even MOOOOOAR space. its the freighter power creep.

take multiple trips dude.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Mag's
Azn Empire
#25 - 2013-04-02 18:32:27 UTC
John Brewster wrote:
Mag's wrote:

Neither of those links prove freighter ganking has 'exploded' since Teir 3 BC. The first talks of the rise of ganking, but without figures to prove this. The second only shows freighter ganks in 2012. For your assertion to be correct, we'll need figures before the introduction and after. A year either side will do, with proof of course.

The fact you keep forgetting with this princiiple, is this. With your change, no matter what fitting you put on a freighter, it wouldn't be as good as now.You will not be able to have more EHP, cargo, speed etc etc. This change means a nerf.

So why do you want to nerf the freighter?


It's a bit weird that an experienced player like you keeps misunderstanding such an easy topic.

Since you are rewriting the stats, you can do so in such a way that, for example, with 3 Cargo Expander II a freighter would have exactly the same stats as today. If you take off the expanders, you lose cargo capacity, but gain some other thing, for example tank, or speed, or whatever. This is a buff, not a nerf.

Also, this is not a trial, the links are enough to get a good feeling of the situation, and CPP does have the stats to verify, if they need.

If you disagree that freighter ganking is skyrocketing, feel free to provide proof of this. A year either side will do, with proof of course.
JB
I don't misunderstand anything.

As far as me finding facts regarding ganking, it doesn't work that way. He made the assertion, he has to provide facts to back it up. The onus is upon him, not me and feelings simple don't cut it.

So how about you understand game mechanics, factual based posting, then come back and tell us what you get. Blink

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#26 - 2013-04-02 18:42:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Arronicus
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Arronicus wrote:
I think they should have the latter, in the form of split cargo bays. IE, the regular cargo hold, then a fuel/ammo/modules/ore bay, or something, that way you could carry far more than 1million ME, but not be able to pack around carriers:


u really need more space? and then a month down the line people want MOAR space...and then even MOOOOOAR space. its the freighter power creep.

take multiple trips dude.


Yes, I really want more space. I'd shell out some hefty change, for a new freighter class. A tech 2, reinforced super hauler or something. Massive split bays, so it can't carry Capitals, needs a beacon just to warp lit by another ship, takes fuel to warp. Something like that.

I already do take multiple trips. Many. Of them heh.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#27 - 2013-04-02 19:07:10 UTC
Mag's wrote:
First off I'd like to see the source of your information regarding freighter kills 'exploding' since the introduction of tier 3 BCs. Please show us the facts and figures on this, we would love to know.

Next the idea. Why would we want our freighters nerfed?
With this change the following would be the case:

Want the same cargo hold? Then your EHP is vastly reduced and your ship slower.

Want the same EHP? Then your cargo will be vastly reduced and your ship slower.

The freighter is perfectly balanced for it's role, why would you want to nerf it this way?


First off, I do not know of any proof that "freighter ganking" has exploded since the advent of tier 3 BC's. If someone is interested in it, they could go to eve kill and figure it out....

I'll answer why I personally would like to see the freighter "nerfed" as you mention: I want options... I want a sense of choice. One of my favorite aspects of EvE is optimizing my ship's fitting to get the most out of it... be it a mining barge, an industrial, a mission boat, or a PvP ship.

Allowing freighters to fit is reasonable... Notes on what I think need careful consideration:

Highslots: Very mixed feelings here... Weapons are pointless and wont be used... leaving it to fit a Neut (reasonable), a cyno (interesting and reasonable), or a cloak (unreasonable). I think the cloak makes moving freighters safely much, much, much easier, and as such think giving freighters a highslot completely unacceptable.

Midslots: A Freighter is a capital ship... so fitting a prop mod should be ineffective... so much so that using a prop mod to get into warp more quickly saves very little time, and severely inhibits the tank it can fit.

Rigs/Lowslots: It should have enough lowslots that it can fit to tank a ton.... (500k EHP) but is left carrying very little (50k m3), or vice versa (900k m3, but 100k EHP), or something in between.... it should not get the best of both worlds, and agility mods should also be a popular choice.
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#28 - 2013-04-02 19:07:21 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Cardano Firesnake wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Let me get this straight...to get back up to the current m3 you want to nerf your structure HP to Hell and back, have I got that right? So instead of 8 tier 3 BC it would take only 4 or fewer?


No reduce only the cargohold.
So if you fit tank modules it will more tanked than now but with less cargohold capacity than now.


Look up cargo expanders and their impact on structure HP and also speed.

Or learn to read.

His idea is the stats would be adjusted so that a full rack of cargo expanders would leave the ship with the same stats it has now.

So since cargo expanders reduce both hull hp and speed those stats would be increased so that with the cargo expanders fitted the freighter would be the same as we currently have. However by dropping cargo expanders you give up cargo and gain speed and tank, you can then use those slots for more speed or tank rather than boosting the cargohold.

A fairly simple idea, I assume most of these posts are just trolling as I do not believe EVE players can be dumb enough to not grasp this concept.

this would work even with just two low slots. Or even with a couple rig slots.

Personally I would rather just see the freighter revamped an brought up to current standards. Make it the only ship with inherent hull resists increasing its ehp.

Most of the ships in the game have been made better. With increased utility in other ships, and player innovation in ganker doctrine, freighters have been left in the dust. they need to be updated to the current standard.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#29 - 2013-04-02 19:15:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
Arronicus wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Arronicus wrote:
I think they should have the latter, in the form of split cargo bays. IE, the regular cargo hold, then a fuel/ammo/modules/ore bay, or something, that way you could carry far more than 1million ME, but not be able to pack around carriers:


u really need more space? and then a month down the line people want MOAR space...and then even MOOOOOAR space. its the freighter power creep.

take multiple trips dude.


Yes, I really want more space. I'd shell out some hefty change, for a new freighter class. A tech 2, reinforced super hauler or something. Massive split bays, so it can't carry Capitals, needs a beacon just to warp lit by another ship, takes fuel to warp. Something like that.

I already do take multiple trips. Many. Of them heh.




ummm...jump freighter?

ur not getting a freighter that can do everything. it just obsoletes every other freighter.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#30 - 2013-04-02 19:18:11 UTC
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
stuffs


freighters dnt need more speed or hp. they need smarter pilots who dnt stuff them with the most expensive goodies they can find and then afk pilot through the most dangerous hi-sec systems in the game Roll

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2013-04-02 19:30:07 UTC
I approve of giving players options.

Letting players customize their ships isn't something that should be discouraged. They should be able to balance fittings, load size, load value, and acceptable risk when piloting a freighter. The current freighter design removes most of these decisions, and I disagree with that on principle.

/freighters could use normal fittings much like the orca, which is also considered a capital ship
//laughing at stupid people is half the fun
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#32 - 2013-04-02 19:40:34 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
still haven't seen anything that suggests freighter ganking has increased.

thanks to the goon campaign it has become more renown. but that does not necessarily mean more frequent.

i wouldnt even say there is anything wrong with freighter ganking. carry less, use contracts, orca's, avoid systems, escorts etc etc etc

there are a bunch of ways to discourage or throw off a gank.

Yes, lets avoid Jita while hauling stuff in and out of Jita...

I have not undocked my Charon in over a month because I have to haul so little to make it safe, I can just use a smaller, faster ship. This is a problem, as freighters are becoming useless.
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#33 - 2013-04-02 19:42:52 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
stuffs


freighters dnt need more speed or hp. they need smarter pilots who dnt stuff them with the most expensive goodies they can find and then afk pilot through the most dangerous hi-sec systems in the game Roll

you obviously have never used a freighter.

The only thing you can fill it with that will not make you a gank target is ore. Even raw minerals put you over the ganking threshold.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#34 - 2013-04-02 19:49:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:

Yes, lets avoid Jita while hauling stuff in and out of Jita...

I have not undocked my Charon in over a month because I have to haul so little to make it safe, I can just use a smaller, faster ship. This is a problem, as freighters are becoming useless.



u badly need to learn to insta-undock

and if freighters are becoming useless then why are ppl still using them so much. and if they arent using them so much, how are they still getting ganked? its not like ppl are ganking them out of ppls hangars.

Bugsy VanHalen wrote:

you obviously have never used a freighter.

The only thing you can fill it with that will not make you a gank target is ore. Even raw minerals put you over the ganking threshold.


then dnt fill it!! its upto u to decide whether its worth taking the risk to haul as much as u are. there is nothing stopping u from filling it half way and taking two trips to avoid risk other than ur own lazy greed.

most of my chars have a freighter. usually use them to move assembled ships and equipment, but occasionally when hauling several bill i actually take steps to mitigate risks.

dear lord ur ignorance.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#35 - 2013-04-02 20:30:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Bugsy VanHalen
Daichi Yamato wrote:


then dnt fill it!! its upto u to decide whether its worth taking the risk to haul as much as u are. there is nothing stopping u from filling it half way and taking two trips to avoid risk other than ur own lazy greed.

most of my chars have a freighter. usually use them to move assembled ships and equipment, but occasionally when hauling several bill i actually take steps to mitigate risks.

dear lord ur ignorance.


So your solution is that everyone using a freighter should only use it at 50% capacity?

And you do not see a balance problem with that?

and you say I am ignorant, wow.

If a freighter can not use its full cargohold without being a gank target, and the proper way to use it is to fly around with less than 500,000m3 worth of cargo in a +850,000m3 cargo ship the there IS a balance problem with that ship.

I am not saying that you should be able to undock with +10 billion in cargo, but you should be able to fill it to capacity with lower value goods. I would say a good target for balance would be 1.5-2 billion isk worth of cargo rather than the 800M we currently have.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#36 - 2013-04-02 21:12:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Mag's wrote:
First off I'd like to see the source of your information regarding freighter kills 'exploding' since the introduction of tier 3 BCs. Please show us the facts and figures on this, we would love to know.

Next the idea. Why would we want our freighters nerfed?
With this change the following would be the case:

Want the same cargo hold? Then your EHP is vastly reduced and your ship slower.

Want the same EHP? Then your cargo will be vastly reduced and your ship slower.

The freighter is perfectly balanced for it's role, why would you want to nerf it this way?


First off, I do not know of any proof that "freighter ganking" has exploded since the advent of tier 3 BC's. If someone is interested in it, they could go to eve kill and figure it out....

I'll answer why I personally would like to see the freighter "nerfed" as you mention: I want options... I want a sense of choice. One of my favorite aspects of EvE is optimizing my ship's fitting to get the most out of it... be it a mining barge, an industrial, a mission boat, or a PvP ship.

Allowing freighters to fit is reasonable... Notes on what I think need careful consideration:

Highslots: Very mixed feelings here... Weapons are pointless and wont be used... leaving it to fit a Neut (reasonable), a cyno (interesting and reasonable), or a cloak (unreasonable). I think the cloak makes moving freighters safely much, much, much easier, and as such think giving freighters a highslot completely unacceptable.

Midslots: A Freighter is a capital ship... so fitting a prop mod should be ineffective... so much so that using a prop mod to get into warp more quickly saves very little time, and severely inhibits the tank it can fit.

Rigs/Lowslots: It should have enough lowslots that it can fit to tank a ton.... (500k EHP) but is left carrying very little (50k m3), or vice versa (900k m3, but 100k EHP), or something in between.... it should not get the best of both worlds, and agility mods should also be a popular choice.
If someone makes a claim, I would expect them to be able to show proof to back it up.

As far as the idea is concerned, why not simply ask for a new ship type? Also why should the freighter have such high EHP as you suggest?

We do have options already, much like your suggestions. I just don't see why nerfing the optimized freighter helps TBH.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#37 - 2013-04-02 21:14:56 UTC
u can still fill it with ore, assembled ships, odds and sods etc...

and yes, freighters hold upto 1m m3. it does not mean it needs to be filled. i dnt believe the speed and tank of the freighters was ever balanced around its capacity, i do not see anything it can be realistically balanced against, so encouragement or discouragement for using less than its max capacity does not strike me as a balancing issue.

there is still no other ship that can haul 500m3 of anything. it is still the territory of the freighter, and they are still useful for that

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2013-04-02 21:20:46 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
there is still no other ship that can haul 500m3 of anything. it is still the territory of the freighter, and they are still useful for that


Being the best at something isn't hard when you're the only thing in the niche. It doesn't mean that it is performing well at it's chosen task, just that there is a lack of competition.

If you removed all cruisers from the game except the current scythe fleet issue it would be the best cruiser available. It wouldn't make it a good ship though.

/current scythe fleet issue is /facepalm
//it's niche is sucking really bad
DJ P0N-3
Table Flippendeavors
#39 - 2013-04-02 22:02:17 UTC
Sounds like CCP should introduce a mini-freighter (400-500m3) and then balance the big freighter based on how usage shifts when people have more hauling options between Orca and freighter. I think that day is a long way off, though.
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
#40 - 2013-04-02 22:30:54 UTC
If you want to tank a freighter - midslots only? so it can shield or hull tank? fit 3 invulns, and an X-L Shield-booster, cap so that this lasts for all of ... say ..... 30 secs with max skills?

For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.