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Market Bots?

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11 of 11
The 11th Hour
Abacus Alliance.
#1 - 2013-04-02 06:54:10 UTC
Have spent a good amount of time trying to search subjects even as broad as Google to see if there's any evidence, don't see any so just have to ask?


Are there people running bots or scripts to manipulate the market?

Yeah I know, it sounds like a nightmare situation where you try all you can to advance fairly only to have some jack ass in China or who knows where else, cheat.

I have an item I have made, bought the BPC (Blue print copy) and entered a market sell order at Jita. They are rare.

BAM! Just like 1 second after I entered the order, some other sell order reduced by just a fraction of an ISK. I tried to adjust lower 5 minutes later and BAM, almost as if before I clicked OK, the other sell order adjusted lower again.

I've tried this well, 23 hours a day for the last week and have found that every single time I adjust my price, it seems as if a bot is lowering the sale price of the item so I can never have the lowest sell price.

I've picture gangs of kids like in Iran (Argo) working diligently to churn ISK like piecing together shreds of paper, but this totally looks like someone running a market bot. Do they exist?

11 of 11
Minmat Sebtin
House of Sebtin
#2 - 2013-04-02 08:18:37 UTC
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
#3 - 2013-04-02 08:53:11 UTC
Yes there are market bots.

There are also a lot of EULA legal market tools that allow you to edit orders pretty much instantly as soon as some one creates and order better than yours.
Mila Chancel
Fungibility Inc.
Invisible Exchequer
#4 - 2013-04-02 09:05:44 UTC
There is probably some person in Jita saying the exact same thing about me this weekend....every time I went to check an order, he had updated it 10-20s previously.

Am I a bot, or am I just watching no more than 5 orders and tabbing back at a lucky time each time? The person/people who I have been undercutting may or may not have been updating every 5 minutes, I just know that when I click on the order, it showed the time on the one above me as 6d 23h 59m 56s or so.

Yes, it is frustrating when it happens (and yes, it happens to everybody), but, with no way of knowing if it is the same person each time, my first assumption is not "bot", but that one of the other 1500 traders in Jita, (and god knows how many others doing it at range in the forge) have either put in a new order, or updated one of theirs.
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
#5 - 2013-04-02 09:19:54 UTC
you changed your order exactly 5 min?
guess what, the other guy was like, oh this is a wise guy, let me make sure mines are always on top, just to spite the competitor.

you just did it, every one does it, except it usually ends in 2 and a half our E-peen measurement marathons.
11 of 11
The 11th Hour
Abacus Alliance.
#6 - 2013-04-02 09:24:24 UTC
Ya'll are cute indeed. Yet what I am actually talking about is a real bot, as in an automated script that has totally shut down the market.

It's not a real person at all. It changes the sell price by .11 the very second you enter a market order. I have been watching it for weeks. There is no way to enter a lower bid, ever. Most certainly not people. People can't even click a button that fast.

If I didn't think better I would suspect CCP of rigging it.

11 of 11
Stonkeep
Osmanli Empire
#7 - 2013-04-02 10:50:27 UTC
As this topic has been discussed many time, yes there are market bots and there are 3rd party "legit" software that lets you modify your orders faster than humanly possible.

CCP usually ignores these if they do not cause too much trouble. If you make 100s of billions of ISK than you might get banned but other than that these kind of software is pretty much tolerated.
Mila Chancel
Fungibility Inc.
Invisible Exchequer
#8 - 2013-04-02 11:30:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Mila Chancel
11 of 11 wrote:
Ya'll are cute indeed. Yet what I am actually talking about is a real bot, as in an automated script that has totally shut down the market.

It's not a real person at all. It changes the sell price by .11 the very second you enter a market order. I have been watching it for weeks. There is no way to enter a lower bid, ever. Most certainly not people. People can't even click a button that fast.

If I didn't think better I would suspect CCP of rigging it.

11 of 11




So, let me see if I understand this...

1) You have a rare BPC, which sells for a large profit on the market
2) This market has only you, and one or two other traders in it
3) You are of course, eager to sell your item, so are forcing market refresh, whether through the price history tab, or via wallet.
4) You likely have your "modify order" screen open, with the price ready to go in, as soon as it hits 5 minutes
5) The other trader, is also aware of the profit in this item, and is likely doing the same....as soon as he sees the order value change, he adjusts his modify screen, and keeps on the refresh button. As soon as 5 minutes is up, he hits enter.
6) Despite you watching like a hawk, he cannot be, and must be a bot

Yes, he will have other orders open, but honestly, choosing between my 10% items and my 100% items, I am going to sit like a hawk on my 100% ones, because I need to shift those before anyone else figures out my market.


EDIT: Also, please let us know what this item is, so we can observe the market for ourselves
Rengerel en Distel
#9 - 2013-04-02 13:38:57 UTC
Not sure why so many try and argue the fact that there are market bots. Btw, there are no "legit" 3rd party software tools that allow you to change your orders faster than humanly possible. That is a bot. Whether you hit a button that says "change all my orders now" or you have it set on a timer, it's a bot.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Mila Chancel
Fungibility Inc.
Invisible Exchequer
#10 - 2013-04-02 13:55:28 UTC
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
Not sure why so many try and argue the fact that there are market bots. Btw, there are no "legit" 3rd party software tools that allow you to change your orders faster than humanly possible. That is a bot. Whether you hit a button that says "change all my orders now" or you have it set on a timer, it's a bot.



I have re-read this thread, and the others, and I see nobody arguing the fact that there are market bots. There are bots in all games, but labelling every competitor a bot or a wallhacker is as inaccurate as stating there are no bots.

People are questioning the scale of botting, not whether it exists. Opinions appear to range from "Everyone but me is a bot" to "There are probably a couple of % of market traders that are bots"
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
#11 - 2013-04-02 13:56:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Brewlar Kuvakei
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
Not sure why so many try and argue the fact that there are market bots. Btw, there are no "legit" 3rd party software tools that allow you to change your orders faster than humanly possible. That is a bot. Whether you hit a button that says "change all my orders now" or you have it set on a timer, it's a bot.


Well no. It's legal to use software tools that can change 10's of orders per min while providing you with an exact value to .11 isk or 0.1 isk or what ever u want to change. The market tools are readily avalible and easy to set up. I suggest anyone who moans go get one and HTFU! (I once moaned about bots too but now I just use ''tools'' to make easy isk so I can spend the time playing eve. Trust me stop moaning and join them).

It is vital to ensure all automation occurs outside of the client as this is what keeps it EULA legal. As long as you interact with the client normally you are fine. Even if your interaction is simply hitting return 50 times or clicking each order this is still legal interaction.

Till CCP change the EULA (they won't) they are legal to use. A few reasons why CCP won't change the EULA to ban these ''bots'' is because so many key players are using them including your local lottery provider. The only time you'll get banned using these tools is if you start to sell your ISK via RMT. You'll also get banned if you start dumping massive amounts of isk to your mates like the EVE uni dude or if you start messing with PLEX price ect.
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#12 - 2013-04-02 14:02:44 UTC
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
Not sure why so many try and argue the fact that there are market bots.

Market bots obviously exist. A simple google search will give you a list of sites selling them. CCP themselves have provided compelling evidence of them in the statistics they have published subsequent to banning them. There is no reason to have any argument about their existence, at all.

However, the majority of people that come to the forums to complain about their market activities being impacted by market bots have little or no evidence to back up their claims. The behavior they complain about could just as easily be the result of normal market competition. In general they are either whining about being outplayed or trolling.
Thur Barbek
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2013-04-02 17:29:26 UTC
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:

Well no. It's legal to use software tools that can change 10's of orders per min while providing you with an exact value to .11 isk or 0.1 isk or what ever u want to change.


If you are using software that modifies the orders for you, you are using a bot and violating the EULA.

If you are using software that just tells you which orders need to be updated, but you still have to goto wallet ingame and modify the order yourself, that is not a bot.
Milan Nantucket
Doomheim
#14 - 2013-04-02 17:32:44 UTC
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
Not sure why so many try and argue the fact that there are market bots. Btw, there are no "legit" 3rd party software tools that allow you to change your orders faster than humanly possible. That is a bot. Whether you hit a button that says "change all my orders now" or you have it set on a timer, it's a bot.


Well no. It's legal to use software tools that can change 10's of orders per min while providing you with an exact value to .11 isk or 0.1 isk or what ever u want to change. The market tools are readily avalible and easy to set up. I suggest anyone who moans go get one and HTFU! (I once moaned about bots too but now I just use ''tools'' to make easy isk so I can spend the time playing eve. Trust me stop moaning and join them).

It is vital to ensure all automation occurs outside of the client as this is what keeps it EULA legal. As long as you interact with the client normally you are fine. Even if your interaction is simply hitting return 50 times or clicking each order this is still legal interaction.

Till CCP change the EULA (they won't) they are legal to use. A few reasons why CCP won't change the EULA to ban these ''bots'' is because so many key players are using them including your local lottery provider. The only time you'll get banned using these tools is if you start to sell your ISK via RMT. You'll also get banned if you start dumping massive amounts of isk to your mates like the EVE uni dude or if you start messing with PLEX price ect.


Post some examples of the "legit" ones.
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
#15 - 2013-04-02 17:45:47 UTC
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#16 - 2013-04-02 18:02:33 UTC
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
http://www.evementat.com/



We must have different definitions of instant.


Eve Mentat does keep track of your orders. Using the API. The market order API updates infrequently (cache time is 1380 minutes on the wiki)

It does keep track of the market. When you look at the market for that item. It's a cache scraper. Which means you have to go and look to get it updated. Sure, you can use the page to do it, but that's limited to one order ever 3 seconds.

And only once it's updated both, will it alert you to the fact you've been outbid. And insert a new price into your clipboard. Which you can then paste in when you go to modify the order.

So much faster than rolling the scrollwheel. Blink

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
#17 - 2013-04-02 18:13:15 UTC
11 of 11 wrote:
Ya'll are cute indeed. Yet what I am actually talking about is a real bot, as in an automated script that has totally shut down the market.

It's not a real person at all. It changes the sell price by .11 the very second you enter a market order. I have been watching it for weeks. There is no way to enter a lower bid, ever. Most certainly not people. People can't even click a button that fast.

If I didn't think better I would suspect CCP of rigging it.

11 of 11



What items are we talking about? what station?
11 of 11
The 11th Hour
Abacus Alliance.
#18 - 2013-04-02 18:20:05 UTC
Kara Books wrote:
11 of 11 wrote:
Ya'll are cute indeed. Yet what I am actually talking about is a real bot, as in an automated script that has totally shut down the market.

It's not a real person at all. It changes the sell price by .11 the very second you enter a market order. I have been watching it for weeks. There is no way to enter a lower bid, ever. Most certainly not people. People can't even click a button that fast.

If I didn't think better I would suspect CCP of rigging it.

11 of 11



What items are we talking about? what station?



Jita 4/4
Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II

I.E.
Mila Chancel
Fungibility Inc.
Invisible Exchequer
#19 - 2013-04-02 19:16:11 UTC
11 of 11 wrote:




Jita 4/4
Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II

I.E.




You mean this item?


[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/PMvzSkU.jpg[/IMG]

Not overly busy on that item...no activity for almost an hour, and the two updates prior to that were 10 minutes apart. The top order was updated 10 minutes after the one before it.

The price history

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/9EZNQFc.jpg[/IMG]

Shows barely any daily volume on the item, comparative to the number of orders, with it being swings and roundabouts whether it goes to buys or sells on a particular day.

There are lots of buy orders and sell orders, relative to the volume shifted each day, and it looks like most of those are updated once or twice a day......
11 of 11
The 11th Hour
Abacus Alliance.
#20 - 2013-04-02 19:26:25 UTC
When you place a market sell order a bot instantly decreases the price by -.01. There is no way that a human or even groups of people (like the Iranian kids in Argo) could ever be so fast as to adjust the price in less than a second.

The movement outside of -.01 increments you are seeing is by real people such as myself.

The -.01 drops are being done instantly by what I call a bot, an automated script to manipulate and control the market, that pretty much discourages me from trusting the EVE market as being fair.

I've read all of ya'll comments and appreciate them. Seems EVE is just one dead end after another. Try to be innovative only to learn that someones cheating. The EVE Mentat program looks interesting but I can't come to download and install a program which on it's face has so many grammatical errors.

So I guess my question has been answered. Yes, people are running bots to manipulate the market and there's just one more thing I thought might be cool and fun to try to master. But I'm not gonna stoop as low nor have time to cheat.

11 of 11











Mila Chancel wrote:
11 of 11 wrote:




Jita 4/4
Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II

I.E.




You mean this item?


[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/PMvzSkU.jpg[/IMG]

Not overly busy on that item...no activity for almost an hour, and the two updates prior to that were 10 minutes apart. The top order was updated 10 minutes after the one before it.

The price history

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/9EZNQFc.jpg[/IMG]

Shows barely any daily volume on the item, comparative to the number of orders, with it being swings and roundabouts whether it goes to buys or sells on a particular day.

There are lots of buy orders and sell orders, relative to the volume shifted each day, and it looks like most of those are updated once or twice a day......
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