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FINAL DETAILS OF CALDARI PRIME DMZ ANNOUNCED
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Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#61 - 2013-03-26 17:34:16 UTC
Simon Louvaki wrote:
I can only reiterate that there is absolutely nothing dishonorable about being smart.


Where on the honor-scale does prostrating one's self to the Federal Senate on their knees, hat in hand, begging for access to their own home planet count?

While some of you might see this as just the request for humanitarian assistance and an attempt to build trust, you should pay careful attention to whom is asking whom for permission and how that effects the balance politically.

A request is an abdication of authority and power. A request is granted by those in control to those not in control.



Sabik now, Sabik forever
Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#62 - 2013-03-26 17:37:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Makoto Priano
I'm not even sure where to begin, Ms. Kim.

Suffice it to say that currently we do not exist in a state of total war. While there is an ongoing border war, and there have been several fleet engagements, this does not a total war make.

Without even touching the politics involved in the destruction of the Shiigaru, it is right and good that Caldari corporations attempt to help Caldari. How is this even a point of discussion?



And Ms. Vitalia, sometimes humility will achieve what pride will not. I'm not sure I'd expect you to understand.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Vikarion
Doomheim
#63 - 2013-03-26 17:39:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Vikarion
Hey, next we'll get to hear how well off the Caldari on CP and in Ishukone will be if they rejoin the Federation. "Oh, dear Federal Senate, won't you forgive our treason two hundred years ago and kindly permit us to live under your comforting umbrella?"

Most of the people on Caldari Prime were trying to kill us a few days ago. The Gallente dropped our Titan on their heads. Why should we go slinking and begging to the Senate to help those who hate us and would murder us?
Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#64 - 2013-03-26 17:41:19 UTC
Thank you for illustrating the fallacy of the slippery slope, Vikarion-haan.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#65 - 2013-03-26 17:47:48 UTC
Ms. Vitalia,

Lets be very clear about this.

There is no doubt that the Federation has the upper hand in this situation. The Home Fleet was utterly destroyed and Federal forces maintain orbital dominance while the latest analytics show State forces having only a marginal edge of less than ten percent over Federation ground troops. Those men are now cut off from all hope of reinforcement, surrounded by enemy territory and face the same situation we faced two hundred years ago, except for the fact that most of these men and women are not natives of our Homeworld and are at an even larger disadvantage than those who originally fought against Federal occupation.

Unless something is done those men and women are going to meet a less than favorable death. The situation is unsustainable, now more than ever. There is no honor in being prideful to the point of being blinded by it.

The fact of the matter is that we're not in control of this situation, the Federation is, and if we want our Home back then we're going to have to keep our options open.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb
Vikarion
Doomheim
#66 - 2013-03-26 17:52:46 UTC
Simon Louvaki wrote:
The fact of the matter is that we're not in control of this situation, the Federation is, and if we want our Home back then we're going to have to keep our options open.


It's better to lose CP than to give the Federation any sort of semblance of control over our actions. To seek rapprochement of any kind with the Federation now is to betray all every other Mega and Caldari citizen. It's also to fall into the trap of "divide and conquer" the Federation wishes to set. Ishukone should be very careful.
Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#67 - 2013-03-26 18:07:24 UTC
We've already losing Home, there is no way we can field enough forces to ensure its continued security. I don't see rapprochement in his motive, I see political tact in negotiating access to the people who have near unequivocal control of our Homeworld and the diplomatic approach to keeping it. The stages are still young, and last I read there was the possibility of demilitarization.

I don't believe Ishuokne intends to hand over Home to the Federation in the end.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb
Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#68 - 2013-03-26 18:13:15 UTC
Ishukone is playing into Federal hands.

One megacorp unilaterally negotiating implies State fragmentation, divided opinions, and competing objectives.

All megacorps negotiating as one while showing a clear resolve to escalate if need be strengthens their position.

If you are in a weakened negotiating position then you must appear reckless enough to have no regard for your own safety and willing to do -anything- to have your needs met.

Although possibly not true, they should be made to think you are zealous enough to sink endless time, resources, and lives into this.

The calculations the Federation will make on negotiations can be tilted based on expenditures of resources, lives, and time that they will have to contend with. Time is the enemy of war for democracy.

If they think your going to cost them blood and treasure in an endless war of attrition they will be made to see reason. For them it is a matter of policy and sovereignty. They are fighting for an abstract ideal, you are fighting for your home.


Many of you are also seeing this as a bi-polar situation, with the front and all pieces moving back and forth along a single line.

In of Caldari Prime, out of Caldari Prime. Forward. Backward. Attack, Retreat.

There are other fronts. Pressure can be applied in many areas.

This would be an opportune time to seek the assistance of your ally the Empire.






Sabik now, Sabik forever
Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#69 - 2013-03-26 18:18:17 UTC
The State is of fragmented opinion, there is nothing to imply because it is simple fact. History has shown that one should not underestimate Ishukone, I don't care what Corporation you come from, this is nothing but truth.

The cards are just now being dealt and the game is in its infancy.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb
Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#70 - 2013-03-26 18:24:39 UTC
You severely underestimate the Caldari in this regard, Vitalia.

~Malcolm Khross
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#71 - 2013-03-26 18:32:46 UTC
Simon Louvaki wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:

Mega-corporation has greater resources and number of ships, than I will ever see in my life. Their abilities are greatly overcoming mine. They can realise complex plans, strategies and maneuvers, that I will never have possibility to conduct myself.

The problem is, that among numerous ways of achieving the goal, they have choosen the least honorable one.


I believe you misunderstand. Ishukone certainly has more resources and ships than you ever will, but they also have a responsibility to do whats best in the interest of their people. That does not include rash and foolish actions. I can only reiterate that there is absolutely nothing dishonorable about being smart.

Then why did they act rashly and foolishly, staining their pride with coming to our enemy on their knees?

Makoto Priano wrote:
I'm not even sure where to begin, Ms. Kim.

Suffice it to say that currently we do not exist in a state of total war. While there is an ongoing border war, and there have been several fleet engagements, this does not a total war make.

Without even touching the politics involved in the destruction of the Shiigaru, it is right and good that Caldari corporations attempt to help Caldari. How is this even a point of discussion?

Yes, it wasn't a total war, and it wasn't a border war. This war was waged on a limited set of regions, that parties agreed to be affected. Well, I say it was, because Gallente started to act outside of set limits. This practically breaks anything and allows us to hit whenever we want.

And of course it is right and good for a corporation to help peoples. The problem is not what they do, but how they do it.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#72 - 2013-03-26 18:39:51 UTC
Silas Vitalia wrote:

This would be an opportune time to seek the assistance of your ally the Empire.

Well, I have tried to gather peoples who would want to fight against gallentean threat with us, but, unfortunately, so far I managed to attract only gallentean bootlickers, who can't even discuss problems, but only spit bile and insults.

I think we need to give people more time to realise how dangerous gallenteans are and why we all should unite against them.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Gosakumori Noh
Coven of One
#73 - 2013-03-26 18:46:28 UTC
Silas Vitalia wrote:

This would be an opportune time to seek the assistance of your ally the Empire.


I'm helping, darling! I'm helping!
Akrasjel Lanate
Immemorial Coalescence Administration
Immemorial Coalescence
#74 - 2013-04-02 14:14:22 UTC
SuVee and other Caldari corporations want to join the relief effort, but not sure if the Fed will let them in.

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude
Anja Suorsa
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#75 - 2013-04-02 14:31:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Anja Suorsa
Akrasjel Lanate wrote:
SuVee and other Caldari corporations want to join the relief effort, but not sure if the Fed will let them in.


If I have understood the press release correctly, the Federation will not need to let them in. They are offering their resources to Ishukone to assist in their relief efforts. The Federal navy is still checking shipments from Ishukone (presumably) so the scope for sneaking illicit materials into the aid shipments is effectively nullified.
Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#76 - 2013-04-02 15:17:35 UTC
That's good news, now the Practicals are on board with helping out our citizens on Caldari Prime.
I wonder if, or when the Patriots bloc will get in on this.


On a side note, I wonder what this does to the baseless accusations that Ishukone is somehow betraying the State by providing relief efforts now that more megacorps have joined in.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#77 - 2013-04-02 15:34:28 UTC
Ishukone's stock will only continue to strengthen as the other Corporations lend their support to Reppola's gambit. Glad to see that not only Ishukone value action for the civilian populace over more saber rattling and threats of violence, suprised as to this move coming from SuVee first though.

Can't help but think this weakens Heth's position somewhat, he speaks ill of Ishukone then watches as other Megas turn to assist in their efforts.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Lialus Raithe
Doomheim
#78 - 2013-04-02 16:04:45 UTC
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Sukuuvesta Corporation one of Executor Heth's strongest supporters?
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#79 - 2013-04-02 16:19:12 UTC
Lialus Raithe wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Sukuuvesta Corporation one of Executor Heth's strongest supporters?


It's never that simple, Msr Raithe. The Practical Bloc (of which Suuvee is the largest member) have had a great deal of support for the Executor's policies in the past, but those policies and the political landscape surrounding them have been changing a great deal, of late.

The Practical Bloc is one of the more politically pragmatic sections of Caldari politics.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Lialus Raithe
Doomheim
#80 - 2013-04-02 16:27:11 UTC
I see, thank you for the clarification.