Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Retribution made some ships - especially Vexor and Caracal Navy Issue, inferior to their standard versions, so it's a good thing Fozzie decided to fix that (not to mention how Faction variants of T1 logis were a joke even before Retribution). While I like to see those ships improved, I think some of the improvements could be further optimized.

Omen Navy Issue:
All seems good, RoF bonus on all hybrid/laser boats should be replaced with damage bonus. I suppose that a tracking bonus instead of optimal range bonus could work as well, but it's already seen on Phantasm. With bonus to optimal range, ONI could be a good alternative to Zealot for people without skills to fly one.

Osprey Navy Issue:
Having flown this ship once in a nullsec roam, I can say it's the worst ship I've ever PvP'd in - it's like a Drake with no tank, no DPS and no cap. It should not be turned into Hookbill's big brother. I would personally leave bonuses same as they were, but add one launcher slot to improve DPS (I can see that CPU, PG and cap are already improved enough to warrant this). Also, why increase mass so much? That would make more sense in Navy Caracal since it's got one more lowslot to put a Nanofiber in (Edit: I failed to see that Navy Osprey will also have 4 lowslots now).

Exequror Navy Issue:
Having both damage and RoF bonus is bad, at least on guns which use cap. I say leave 4 turret slots, but give the ship same bonuses that Brutix has (10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage and 7.5% bonus to Armor Repairer effectiveness). Also, drone bay should be 50 m^3 (generally, I don't see why any faction cruiser should have smaller drone bay than its standard version).

Scythe Fleet Issue:
Split weapon systems are bad, bad, bad. Make it a projectile boat or a missile boat, not both. Also, since Stabber lost its velocity bonus, why not reintroduce it on Scythe Fleet Issue?

Augoror Navy Issue:
The only faction version of a T1 logi that didn't completely blow before, due to its tanking bonus. However, especially now when it's got a high damage bonus, Amarr Cruiser V will be almost mandatory to fly it effectively.

Caracal Navy Issue:
Doesn't seem to be much better than standard Caracal, especially when it's got drone bay removed. Also needs one more midslot or it's still not going to be worth to spend 6 times more money to fly this instead of normal Caracal. However, it's the lightest ship of them all and with a pair of nanofibers it actually could be a good kiter.

Vexor Navy Issue:
Seems much better now, especially with nearly useless hybrid damage bonus gone.

Stabber Fleet Issue:
My favourite non-pirate faction cruiser, this one actually needed a slight nerf because it's AFAIK the only ship with 10% tracking bonus per level, while 7.5% is the norm. However, 10% mass increase is a bit drastic.

Not bad but still missing something I can't put my finger on.

At least one of each navy cruisers could use of a 3rd hull bonus for specific logistics use. Some sort of "spider rep" ability while maintaining decent DPS values to increase these ships value, more attractive and offer to older as newer players a different and exciting experience.

Just an idea.

There was no need to change the Stabber Fleet Issue.

Anyway.

Bad? VERY BAD? You have not really flown a Osprey Navy Issue. There is and was no Caldari missile cruiser that is not good in fleet engagements. Though the changes to the Caracal did make most Caldari navy cruisers irrelevant.


- killz

when did the SFI become an iWin boat?

Depending on how you fit it, it IS either a gun boat or a missile boat. It isn't a mixed or split weapons system boat, it's a "selectable" weapons system boat. You CAN fit mixed weapons systems but certainly don't need to, in fact most won't.

Look carefully at those bonuses and you'll see that they are quite sufficient.

Another frustrating pass for minmatar I cant speak for the others as i have not flown them before but upon reading this i am sure that will change.

Scythe: I am actually kind of looking forward to playing with this ship the fitting will be fun and having it around and able to use missiles or guns could be kind of a applicable for all fleets ship and t hats fun. How ever i don't expect it to out preform any of the ships that are supposed to be there and that is always kind of the issue for split weapons isn't it? Still I kinda like it if not just because it fits the story so well and is exactly what its in game description says. Still i have to remind myself when i look at the bonuses 10% is like two bonuses 10% is like two bonuses..... except faction stuff usually has higher bonuses....

Stabber: After reading and looking around and seeing what everyone else has to say i have to agree it really has not had a huge change or at least it has not necessarily gotten worse. There are a couple problems with that

1. With the cruiser pass all the cruisers narrowed the gap with their faction counterparts and we all hoped that gap would be replaced with this pass and yet the SFI has simply remained the same. I am not even going to say it is not still better but i definitely don't feel that it is worth the price. So congratulations minny pilots at least this did not get worse?

2. Anyone else find it painful that with the boost to active armor tanking in the last patch and to passive armor tanking the very next patch armor nerfs a frequently active tanked minny ship (albeit it slightly). Not to mention while lowering its armor they actually up the mass that just seems so backwards.

3. In a similar vein it feels like frequently an increase to shields means more shield tanking. Which means kiting for the most part or maybe a high damage brawl fit. Both of these things also rely on another thing getting nerfed the Tracking Enhancer. So here have your shield tank and with it comes a reduction in value on all those low slots you just opened up!

None of these are crushing but they are definitely there and I am just so disappointed with yet another patch where the best i can say is... at least i have blaster's trained.

I can not agree more with something i read online.

If you don't want speed tanking and fighting in fall off to be a minmatar trait anymore that's fine. But please PLEASE give us something else to do.

Keep in mind that none of those abilities has been removed, not even close.

Many Minmatar ships have enjoyed significant advantages over others for quite some time. It's only logical that when it come time to balance things many ships will get a buff, while those few that are at the top of the heap get a slight nerf to bring them all into line (without invalidating other classes like BC's or the soon to be balanced Pirate or Tech 2 varieties).

That latter point illustrates why they all are not simply raised to the highest level, as you have to balance not only the ships within a class but the various ship classes against each other as well.

Point being, if it seems that mainly Minmatar ships are the ones being toned down it isn't because of the race they belong to... it is directly related to the fact that they were defacto the top of the heap before the balancing. It could have been any race, but in this case Minnie ships have more instances of superior speed and damage application abilities than their counter parts.

The only case I have seen so far in this project of the scales perhaps tipping a little too far in the other direction is in the case of the Rifter, so we'll have to see where the polishing pass ends up for them. It won't take much to nudge it back to equal footing with the rest.

The Rifter needs a minor tweak at best, the Stabber is getting exactly what it needs to become the effictive kiting vessel it is intended to be, and the Breacher is one of the most effective T1 frigates in game right now.

I am in full agreement that the polishing passes are highly important to fine tune things, and we seem to be getting them in a timely fashion (which is excellent). I'm just saying there is a valid reason you are seeing mostly nerfs on the Minnie hulls compared to the other races.

By the way, I wouldn't expect to "get your monies worth" out of anything beyond T1 hulls. Diminishing returns ensure that you never will, and this is as intended.

Agreed.

As it stands the ship has the equivalent of (if you choose to forgo putting Neuts or whatever in the 5th high slot) 8 turrets plus 1.5 missile launchers at level 5 skill. That is a total of 9.5 weapons points.

Or if you choose to go primarily missiles you have the equivilent of 6 missile bays and 2 turrets, for a total of 8 weapons.

The fittings wll tell the tale, and I'm pretty sure they will be on the tight side (they better be).

Just another case of Minmatar ships getting the shaft, eh?

as for the whole "too many brawlers!" those brawlers can be set up as kites as well if you bother to fit 'em correctly, so, yes, let's see the NOmen get something... again, i honestly believe that a tracking speed boost spec'd to beams only would be perfect