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Resource Redistribution

Author
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#41 - 2013-04-02 10:21:22 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Emu Meo wrote:
CCP has already said they do not like passive incomes, so sorry but don't expect the tech moon gravy train to be going on forever.

Who said it would?

And even if they don't remove moonmining, replacing it with a ****-poor excuse for a mechanic which causes people to commit in-game suicide due to burnout isn't the answer. That mechanic would, in case you're wondering, be "moon mineral depletion", regardless of the timeframe of said depletion.


You know what would be just as awesome as moon mining depletion? If hi-sec agents had a set quantity of missions to give out every day, and once they'd handed them out, they moved to another NPC corp and based into another system and randomised their agent level.

And because after all, a hi-sec agent can produce vastly more wealth than a tech moon, I suggest that the mission cap be set proportionately low. Does 6 sound about right? Maybe 10, although i'm worried that allowing so much wealth to be produced from an invulnerable resource is too generous.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2013-04-02 10:22:11 UTC
Emu Meo wrote:
You would have a few months gap in between so it wouldn't constant. Maybe even go for a year gap. The whole idea would be that the same null sec alliances wouldn't constantly have the monopoly on the tech moons. They would actually have to work to find the moons now and again, making it possible for small alliances to capture them too.

And what happens during the time in between when say all the tech moons have shifted place in the universe, to when they've been found and started exploited?

Oh, right, resource scarcity. I'm sure that'll make things so much better!

Emu Meo wrote:
Perhaps you could have different variations of moons also. So you could have pretty static ones which will hold their resources for a year plus before they are depleted. Obviously these would be held by the big null sec alliances and would be fought over hard. Then you could have moons which begin to deplete over a month or two and then respawn somewhere else more suitable for the smaller alliances and those larger ones which choose to actively seek them out.

I'm going to just go out on a limb and assume that these "big null sec alliances" won't "hold these moons" when they're on the other side of the universe, since well, they'd be on the other side of the universe.

Emu Meo wrote:
That would even create a new profession ^ Moon scanning. I'm sure players would pay handsomely for the location of a valuable moon.

We already have that. It still sucks, it still doesn't take care of the people who are doing reactions, and it still doesn't solve anything except maybe the problem of "how can we make moongoo even harder to get for my production line".

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2013-04-02 10:24:44 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:
The Goons deserve every suspicion of causing more trouble, and a break up just as thorough as BoB suffered.

VFK is => thaddaway. Bring your hisec pubbies and do what needs to be done.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Emu Meo
Doomheim
#44 - 2013-04-02 10:33:00 UTC
Malcanis wrote:

And because after all, a hi-sec agent can produce vastly more wealth than a tech moon, I suggest that the mission cap be set proportionately low. Does 6 sound about right? Maybe 10, although i'm worried that allowing so much wealth to be produced from an invulnerable resource is too generous.


There is a big difference between mission running and moon mining. For one moon mining is a passive income once set up which runs 24 hours a day, so in fact you can moon mine and mission run at the same time if you wish. And although there is some trouble in defending the moon, this really isn't a problem at all for large null sec alliances.

One thing I would suggest with mission running though to shake things up a bit would be to move all level 4s to low sec, although I doubt that will ever happen.


Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#45 - 2013-04-02 10:36:02 UTC
Emu Meo wrote:
Malcanis wrote:

And because after all, a hi-sec agent can produce vastly more wealth than a tech moon, I suggest that the mission cap be set proportionately low. Does 6 sound about right? Maybe 10, although i'm worried that allowing so much wealth to be produced from an invulnerable resource is too generous.


There is a big difference between mission running and moon mining. For one moon mining is a passive income once set up which runs 24 hours a day...


You still have to set up a POS, manage it and collect your moongoo. it's not quite as passive as R&D agents for instance.

R&D agents can't be reinforced by hostiles either. Reffed moonpos produce nothing.

Still, you make a valid point. Let's raise the cap to 12.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Emu Meo
Doomheim
#46 - 2013-04-02 10:40:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Emu Meo
Lord Zim wrote:
Oh, right, resource scarcity. I'm sure that'll make things so much better!


Nope, because the resource distribution would gradual as I said, ie a planet would not suddenly go from having no resources to being a tech moon in one downtime. As one moon begins to fade another would gradually begin to generate resources over the same time period. You know, like how resources generally work in real life.

Lord Zim wrote:
Emu Meo wrote:
Perhaps you could have different variations of moons also. So you could have pretty static ones which will hold their resources for a year plus before they are depleted. Obviously these would be held by the big null sec alliances and would be fought over hard. Then you could have moons which begin to deplete over a month or two and then respawn somewhere else more suitable for the smaller alliances and those larger ones which choose to actively seek them out.

I'm going to just go out on a limb and assume that these "big null sec alliances" won't "hold these moons" when they're on the other side of the universe, since well, they'd be on the other side of the universe.


Even better, perhaps one benefit of this change would be null sec alliances would actually have to you know, move occasionaly. :) Also I don't expect large alliances will bother moving across the other side for a moon that will only generate resources for a month or so, but perhaps if they find one that will last a year + then it will be worth a little more effort.

Lord Zim wrote:
We already have that. It still sucks, it still doesn't take care of the people who are doing reactions, and it still doesn't solve anything except maybe the problem of "how can we make moongoo even harder to get for my production line".


I think you are over worrying things. Many of the issues you raised can easily be balanced out by relatively small tweaks to the system. The main concept to have in mine though is to move moon resources from static to a more dynamic resource.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2013-04-02 10:42:48 UTC
Emu Meo wrote:
Nope, because the resource distribution would gradual as I said, ie a planet would not suddenly go from having no resources to being a tech moon in one downtime.

Oh, so we would have to scan the same moon multiple times during its current goo-cycle, to see what was going up and what was going down? Excellent, that'll make things so much better.

How many moons are there in <0.4 again?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

DrClit
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#48 - 2013-04-02 10:44:55 UTC
If you take a look at the real world everything has a limit.

I agree that a lot of people play with an "old Mindset" to the game - they've got used to the way he system is.

Unforunately when something can be farmed thats when the sheep move and then it becomes difficult to get the so called "sandbox" moving again.

I am nor for or against resource redistribution there are plenty of pro's and cons for and against the idea. What i would like to see CCP do more of (and this is something i've often spoke about in my posts) is for them to think out of the box a lot more.

Eve used to be about allowing players to create their own gaming style and i think in the 7 years i have been playing this game it has lost a lot of that due tot he constant and consistent nerf bat.

Take for instance the way technetium has become a cartel, an option that I can see as relieving some of the dependancies on the alliances that are lucky enough to hold one or may be more of these moons would be to look at other ways of producing the advanced material. notice i said advanced material this is your fulleride, nanotransistors, phenolic composits etc. The thing with human beings is we like to constantly improve ourselves and do things quicker and better and cheaper. Unfortunately i think we are at a point in eve where the so called "player driven content" is saturated. My opinion is if CCP concentrated on creating new gaming sttyles allowing for new player driven content (and in new i mean not replacing the current system) this would close the doors to stagnation one which we see in null sec and moon mining (not to be confused with moon reacting).
Anthar Thebess
#49 - 2013-04-02 10:45:41 UTC
They don't have to change moon mineral location, but simply add alternative reactions/bpo for certain components that will do the same thing.
For example to all things that require technetium to make - create alternative reaction that will require something as common as vandanium.

Still for me the best option from my perspective - not remove moon mining ( why - because you cannot remove a part of industry that all eve depends on ) but to simply add some additional extra rocks to asteroid belts in nullsec.
Refining them you can get moon minerals.

Emu Meo
Doomheim
#50 - 2013-04-02 10:45:50 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Emu Meo wrote:
Nope, because the resource distribution would gradual as I said, ie a planet would not suddenly go from having no resources to being a tech moon in one downtime.

Oh, so we would have to scan the same moon multiple times during its current goo-cycle, to see what was going up and what was going down? Excellent, that'll make things so much better.

How many moons are there in <0.4 again?


The way I envisage it would be that moons would have a feature similar to that of wormhole. Ie once you have scanned them down then you can get an update by simply clicking show info. But these are really minor details that CCP could easily iron out.
Emu Meo
Doomheim
#51 - 2013-04-02 10:54:32 UTC
Malcanis wrote:

You still have to set up a POS, manage it and collect your moongoo. it's not quite as passive as R&D agents for instance.

R&D agents can't be reinforced by hostiles either. Reffed moonpos produce nothing.

Still, you make a valid point. Let's raise the cap to 12.


I'm not against a cap on missions. I think moving level 4s down into low sec would solve most of the issues with mission running though.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2013-04-02 10:55:08 UTC
Emu Meo wrote:
The way I envisage it would be that moons would have a feature similar to that of wormhole. Ie once you have scanned them down then you can get an update by simply clicking show info. But these are really minor details that CCP could easily iron out.

So we're going to scan a few hundred thousand moons every x months to a year, and everyone doing reaction has to move their POS around as the mineral moves around, and no matter how much you handwave it away, it will cause a higher resource scarcity than we're seeing already, with the ensuing high prices. Only it won't just be for things like tech, it'll be for everything down to and including the least valuable moongoo there is.

Anthar Thebess wrote:
They don't have to change moon mineral location, but simply add alternative reactions/bpo for certain components that will do the same thing.
For example to all things that require technetium to make - create alternative reaction that will require something as common as vandanium.

I think there's this ... uhm, what's it called again?

Oh yeah, alchemy. That's its name. Alchemy.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#53 - 2013-04-02 10:57:29 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Emu Meo wrote:
Nope, because the resource distribution would gradual as I said, ie a planet would not suddenly go from having no resources to being a tech moon in one downtime.

Oh, so we would have to scan the same moon multiple times during its current goo-cycle, to see what was going up and what was going down? Excellent, that'll make things so much better.

How many moons are there in <0.4 again?


I believe it's a little over 160,000.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#54 - 2013-04-02 11:02:14 UTC
Emu Meo wrote:
Malcanis wrote:

You still have to set up a POS, manage it and collect your moongoo. it's not quite as passive as R&D agents for instance.

R&D agents can't be reinforced by hostiles either. Reffed moonpos produce nothing.

Still, you make a valid point. Let's raise the cap to 12.


I'm not against a cap on missions. I think moving level 4s down into low sec would solve most of the issues with mission running though.


Of course we'll also have to remove the agent finder, because forcing people to check every NPC station in empire to find where the agent they have standings with has gone to is just good gameplay.

It's only a shame that there aren't even more empire stations, because only having a few thousand to work through is pretty small beer compared to the 160k+ moons that moon miners would get to check, but I suppose there ought to be some advantages to being in 0.0.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Emu Meo
Doomheim
#55 - 2013-04-02 11:07:30 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:

So we're going to scan a few hundred thousand moons every x months to a year, and everyone doing reaction has to move their POS around as the mineral moves around, and no matter how much you handwave it away, it will cause a higher resource scarcity than we're seeing already, with the ensuing high prices. Only it won't just be for things like tech, it'll be for everything down to and including the least valuable moongoo there is.


Again, your narrow mindedly focusing on a individual point which can easily be fixed. You know if one high value moon makes 2x the resource as the currently highest value moon there is right now, then one high value moon = two current moon and resources are the same. :)

So these things can obviousluy be easily be balanced out
Emu Meo
Doomheim
#56 - 2013-04-02 11:10:27 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Emu Meo wrote:
Malcanis wrote:

You still have to set up a POS, manage it and collect your moongoo. it's not quite as passive as R&D agents for instance.

R&D agents can't be reinforced by hostiles either. Reffed moonpos produce nothing.

Still, you make a valid point. Let's raise the cap to 12.


I'm not against a cap on missions. I think moving level 4s down into low sec would solve most of the issues with mission running though.


Of course we'll also have to remove the agent finder, because forcing people to check every NPC station in empire to find where the agent they have standings with has gone to is just good gameplay.

It's only a shame that there aren't even more empire stations, because only having a few thousand to work through is pretty small beer compared to the 160k+ moons that moon miners would get to check, but I suppose there ought to be some advantages to being in 0.0.


Yes I agree, and by the same r3tarded logic we should also make all wormhole and exploration sites appear on the game map also, as you know, it is good game mechanics according to you.

Really, I hope your not going to be this dense if elected as CSM or I have little hope. I actually agree with some of your ideas on high sec, but you seem to have a complete deficit in logic when addressing any ideas which aren't your own.
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#57 - 2013-04-02 11:10:52 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Ace Uoweme wrote:
The Goons deserve every suspicion of causing more trouble, and a break up just as thorough as BoB suffered.

VFK is => thaddaway. Bring your hisec pubbies and do what needs to be done.


Bring my "hisec pubbies"? Speak English. Most of us don't speak "hive speak". Lol

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell

Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#58 - 2013-04-02 11:11:50 UTC
Emu Meo wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:

So we're going to scan a few hundred thousand moons every x months to a year, and everyone doing reaction has to move their POS around as the mineral moves around, and no matter how much you handwave it away, it will cause a higher resource scarcity than we're seeing already, with the ensuing high prices. Only it won't just be for things like tech, it'll be for everything down to and including the least valuable moongoo there is.


Again, your narrow mindedly focusing on a individual point which can easily be fixed. You know if one high value moon makes 2x the resource as the currently highest value moon there is right now, then one high value moon = two current moon and resources are the same. :)

So these things can obviousluy be easily be balanced out

my idea is that all moon minerals are removed and replaced with a single mineral, slurrytium, which balances moons perfectly
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2013-04-02 11:13:30 UTC
Emu Meo wrote:
Again, your narrow mindedly focusing on a individual point which can easily be fixed. You know if one high value moon makes 2x the resource as the currently highest value moon there is right now, then one high value moon = two current moon and resources are the same. :)

And what would the impact be on reactions? Keep in mind that currently one moonminer spits out 100 units per hour, and that's exactly the number which is consumed per cycle during reactions.

Benny Ohu wrote:
my idea is that all moon minerals are removed and replaced with a single mineral, slurrytium, which balances moons perfectly

Unobtanium.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#60 - 2013-04-02 11:18:41 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
For example to all things that require technetium to make - create alternative reaction that will require something as common as vandanium.


Or remove Technetium from the materials needed all together.

When a product is used to the point of disrupting a game to the ships have to be redesigned due to it (as it disrupted the very material market), that would've been a much easier solution.

There's w-a-y too many comfort zones here, when markets to minerals are never steady.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell