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And you thought HI was too safe???? Welcome to Thunderdome™

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SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#461 - 2013-04-02 02:56:32 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:

Do you remember back in 2008 how Goons began and why the blob fleet came into existence (you were new and none skilled). Five years later, you guys turned into the next BoB.

And history tends to repeat itself (especially when revolutions are but three meals away).


I love revisionist history.
SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#462 - 2013-04-02 03:11:55 UTC  |  Edited by: SmilingVagrant
RubyPorto wrote:
You never have to spend more than 500 man hours to mine Ice worth 5b ISK. Some months you might have to defend a Moon more times than you'd planned for (not to mention the fact that each time you've been forced to defend a moon, you loose 300m ISK worth of production).

Also, the fact that Ice mining can be done individually, on their own time, is a huge advantage for Ice mining. If you have variation on participation for your Tech moon defense fleets, you may well lose the moon (loosing all the income, not just part of it). Then you need at least 2 successful fleets in a row to get it back.

The original claim was that "nobody can compete with Tech moon income." The fact that a similar sized group to goonswarm could produce an income greater than the entire combined income of all Tech moons by having its members donate only 250m/month to the war effort (be that through 25hrs/month of mining, 5hrs/month missioning, 2hrs/month running incursions), means that that claim is entirely discredited.

Nobody has said that Passive = Active. Just that they can compete with each other as income sources, and that Tech moons are only as passive as the enemies of the owners let them be. In other words, if you don't like the fact that Tech moon income is as passive as it is, form up some bomber alts and keep them permanently reinforced.


To back this statement up, back when lowsec incursions was a "Thing" that goons did, our incursion squad (And we generally only had one squad of 10 running at any given moment) was making more alliance income via taxes than a tech moon. So a roving gypsy band of about 20 or so total goons was making more ALLIANCE isk than a single tech moon. This is discounting personal income which allowed many of us to create a stable of ships, buy capital characters and hulls etc.

Now for pretend numbers because there is no real easy way to tell, lets say half of the alliance is alts, or can't be multiboxed for some reason.

9917 / 2 = 4958 (rounding down)

Break them into gangs of 20 and send them off to do incursions, granted this is a theoretical because at most each incursion could support about 80 goons running them.

We'd produce as much isk as about 248 tech moons, give or take a decimal.

Now right now you can make about 80M an hour ratting in a naga, it's very unfun and takes a bit of concentration, but it's doable. It's taxed at the same rate. If the same number of goons logged in and ratted at the same rate and swath of time we were doing incursions we'd see our membership generating about 198~ tech moons worth of income.

Unfortunately most goons find ratting to be terrible (Because it is) and have found other methods of generating income (Faction warfare/scamming), that is not only non taxable, but has dividends that make incursion running look rather paltry.

This is just scribbleboard math. But to say nothing active could compare to a tech moon is silly and untrue. The problem is active isk generation in this game is about as entertaining and engaging as yanking teeth.
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#463 - 2013-04-02 03:30:39 UTC
SmilingVagrant wrote:
I love revisionist history.


I love actual history...

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Band_of_brothers#Operation_Goonicide

Quote:
Operation Goonicide

Operation Goonicide was an operation in which Band of Brothers (BoB) attacked Goonswarm, trying to remove them from The Syndicate. Many other alliances joined BoB to exact "revenge" from Goonswarm.

The conflict was triggered by the claims of BoB's leadership that Goonswarm alliance had displayed a disrespectful attitude to the EVE Community, and is the root cause of the long-standing animosity between Goonswarm and Band of Brothers and its subsequent reincarnations.

Band of Brothers attacked and defeated the early Tech I Goonswarm fleets, who simply chose to hide waiting for a better time, or rolled untrained 'VCBee' alts to repeatedly suicide into gate and station camps in free rookie ships. This conflict was ultimately inconclusive; BoB left Syndicate after three weeks, with a heavily favourable kill:death ratio and claiming that they had destroyed Goonswarm's military and industrialassets, Goonswarm responded that as their alliance was based in conquerable NPC 0.0 at the time and their pilots mostly flew fully insurable tech 1 ships, they had little in terms of valuable assets or fleets to destroy. The claims that Band of Brothers (Player alliance) destroyed Goonswarm's morale or ability to fight were also proven untrue when, shortly after this war, Goonswarm moved to the South East and destroyed the Southern Coalition alongside Red Alliance and Tau Ceti Federation.

After this short conflict, Goonswarm changed its vision and goal in EVE, with Goonswarm and Band of Brothers being each other's sworn enemies, to the point that Band of Brothers chose to side with their old enemies Against All Authorities to fight Goonswarm once again.


(Greene Lee got what support again?)

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Operation_Goonicide

Quote:
Operation Goonicide

Operation Goonicide saw BoB drive Goonswarm from their home region. At the time, Goonswarm were a new alliance in New Eden, priding themselves on their obnoxious behaviour and use of numbers to counter their lack of experience and poor equipment. They had settled into an NPC region just north of Delve, after several successful wars in the east. BoB;s leaders used an incident as an opportunity to start a propaganda war against Goonswarm, leading to Operation Goonicide - in which BoB resolved to remove Goonswarm from New Eden, even going so far as to claim "There are no goons".

When BoB attacked, Goonswarm were beaten back by their more skilled players in expensive Tech 2 (T2) ships. This was effective due to the relative youth of most of the players in Goonswarm, as at the time T2 snipers could not be countered easily with T1 ships. Goonswarm fell back to S-U where BoB camped them down until they moved back east, to wait out the BoB attack in their NPC stations.


Hmmm, where did docking games come from again?

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#464 - 2013-04-02 03:35:52 UTC
if we were the first ones to come up with tactics like "stay docked" and "outnumber the enemy" well damn that says a lot about the ingenuity (heh) of the eve community

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#465 - 2013-04-02 04:37:00 UTC
Andski wrote:
Ace Uoweme wrote:
It doesn't matter what it looks like at the moment, you know what I meant. You also know that it's PvE in a area designed for PvP (and exists due to resources only).


I think we can safely disregard the rest of your post if you subscribe to this idea that gameplay is segregated in such a way when it is not and has never been


Who are you to dictate what another says/believes/reads, dear?

Now in your corp you may choose to brainwash all you like, but outside the game you're but anyone else with a butthole.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#466 - 2013-04-02 04:44:12 UTC
SmilingVagrant wrote:
Ace Uoweme wrote:

Do you remember back in 2008 how Goons began and why the blob fleet came into existence (you were new and none skilled). Five years later, you guys turned into the next BoB.

And history tends to repeat itself (especially when revolutions are but three meals away).


I love revisionist history.


Truth hurts. Go cry.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#467 - 2013-04-02 05:11:09 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Who are you to dictate what another says/believes/reads, dear?

Now in your corp you may choose to brainwash all you like, but outside the game you're but anyone else with a butthole.


i'm stating facts, such as "no, there are no separate PvP areas" because well the whole game is "the PvP area"

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#468 - 2013-04-02 06:49:43 UTC
Andski wrote:
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Who are you to dictate what another says/believes/reads, dear?

Now in your corp you may choose to brainwash all you like, but outside the game you're but anyone else with a butthole.


i'm stating facts, such as "no, there are no separate PvP areas" because well the whole game is "the PvP area"


One word: Jita.

And all other major trade hubs.

That idea of "the whole game is 'the PvP area'" is moot.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#469 - 2013-04-02 06:53:04 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthNefarius
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Andski wrote:
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Who are you to dictate what another says/believes/reads, dear?

Now in your corp you may choose to brainwash all you like, but outside the game you're but anyone else with a butthole.


i'm stating facts, such as "no, there are no separate PvP areas" because well the whole game is "the PvP area"


One word: Jita.

And all other major trade hubs.

That idea of "the whole game is 'the PvP area'" is moot.


Hmmm I consider Jita market to be PvP, but in many ways with all the Market BOTS 0.01 ISKing it may be more PvB
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#470 - 2013-04-02 07:31:55 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:
One word: Jita.

Can I **** someone over in Jita? Yes, yes I can. Can I shoot them? Yes, as soon as they undock. Is it a PVP area? Why yes, yes indeed.

Ace Uoweme wrote:
And all other major trade hubs.

Are there any special circumstances to other "major trade hubs"? Why no, no there aren't.

And now, the weather. It appears to be raining pubbie tears.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#471 - 2013-04-02 07:32:40 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Ace Uoweme wrote:
One word: Jita.

And all other major trade hubs.

That idea of "the whole game is 'the PvP area'" is moot.


http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/Jita

The 541 people who lost their ship in Jita today might tend to disagree with you. Also the 452 people who lost their pods.


Just because you can't smartbomb the undock does not mean it's not a PvP area (you cannot smartbomb any station's Undock).

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Super spikinator
Hegemonous Conscripts
#472 - 2013-04-02 10:05:57 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Ace Uoweme wrote:
One word: Jita.

And all other major trade hubs.

That idea of "the whole game is 'the PvP area'" is moot.


http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/Jita

The 541 people who lost their ship in Jita today might tend to disagree with you. Also the 452 people who lost their pods.


Just because you can't smartbomb the undock does not mean it's not a PvP area (you cannot smartbomb any station's Undock).


more's the pity.
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#473 - 2013-04-02 10:45:48 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:

Hmmm I consider Jita market to be PvP, but in many ways with all the Market BOTS 0.01 ISKing it may be more PvB


Okay, PvP of markets.

But it's still off limits to wonderful things like a Kamikaze dive into about 15 ships at the naval station. Twisted

So PvP here is quite selective. If the trade hubs are protected why the spotty protection in high-sec is "okay"? Jita is in high-sec afterall.

If EvE is a sandbox game players can be creative in taking down targets, and the targets are no different in Jita than 2 jumps away in a 7.0 system.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#474 - 2013-04-02 10:59:56 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Just because you can't smartbomb the undock does not mean it's not a PvP area (you cannot smartbomb any station's Undock).


It's conditional PvP in a game suppose to be ABOUT 24/7 PvP.

I didn't have any conditions throwing 100000000000000000000000001 nades down a titan hallway.

I didn't have any conditions perched on a ledge throwing 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 nades smack on top of heads of whole squads.

I didn't have any conditions using grenade launchers and killing scores at a time.

I didn't have any conditions planting APMs, C4 or RDX. Pod in, drop, BOOM!

But somehow I can't smartbomb a dock with the same ships seen and used all over EvE. What?

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#475 - 2013-04-02 11:02:32 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:
DarthNefarius wrote:

Hmmm I consider Jita market to be PvP, but in many ways with all the Market BOTS 0.01 ISKing it may be more PvB


Okay, PvP of markets.

But it's still off limits to wonderful things like a Kamikaze dive into about 15 ships at the naval station. Twisted

So PvP here is quite selective. If the trade hubs are protected why the spotty protection in high-sec is "okay"? Jita is in high-sec afterall.

If EvE is a sandbox game players can be creative in taking down targets, and the targets are no different in Jita than 2 jumps away in a 7.0 system.

I can suicide gank people going to/from the station. Them being "trade hubs" doesn't make it safe in those systems.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#476 - 2013-04-02 15:16:23 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
So Thunderdome is being supported by ice miners because people don't want to fight over those ice belts. Got it.


Nobody said anything of the sort.

Quote:
Guess I had it wrong when I read Mittani talking about any force trying to get into tech moon mining would be hellcamped.


Why wouldn't people want to defend their income sources?

Quote:
Oh wait, maybe its because people CAN do both at the same time! You should look into the difference between passive and active.


Show me how you can mine Ice at the same time you're hellcamping someone in reprisal for an attack on a Tech moon with the same account?

If someone's using more accounts than you are to make money, of course they're going to have an advantage. But that advantage has nothing to do with the topic at hand, so we assume account number parity. That is to say: If someone's spending time on one account defending a Tech moon, that is time that he cannot spend on that account mining Ice (this is obviously true, and it's ridiculous that I keep having to spell it out for you).

Quote:
Since you like using stocks and bonds... you do realize you can buy a savings bond and need to wait for it to mature to get the most out of it while playing the stock market right?


No, you actually can't do both at the same time with the same resources. Purchasing a Bond means that you cannot use the same money, at the same time, to purchase stocks.

In EVE terms, Defending a Tech moon means that you cannot use the same account, at the same time, to Mine Ice.


Again, all it takes to compete with the combined income from all Tech moons is a group of a similar size to Goonswarm willing to contribute 250m/month to the cause. If you don't have similar numbers, of course each member is going to have to contribute more (again, obvious. Larger groups have advantages over smaller groups because 1+1 > 1).

And, as Empirical Proof that non-Tech owners can kick the pants off of compete with Tech owners, we have the DRF's conquest and eviction of the Northern Coalition.


You are so flawed it isn't even funny. Hellcamping in reprisal does not equal passive income.

Take the time to reread the thread. You are losing focus.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#477 - 2013-04-02 15:22:29 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Oh wait, maybe its because people CAN do both at the same time! You should look into the difference between passive and active.
The only difference is that one requires manhours to produce ISK whereas the other requires manhours to produce ISK. Oh wait. That's not a difference.

The only difference is that one is assumed to be passive when it really isn't. Beyond that, they are comparable, competitive, and the complaint that they aren't has on multiple occasions proven to be false. Believing it today, with all there is to show the exact opposite, is ridiculously ignorant.

Actually, there's a second difference too: the supposedly (but not actually) “passive” income is actually better described as static, whereas the “active” can be dynamically scaled to fit your needs and can trivially outpace the static income if that's what you want.



Well, considering you don't need seperate man hours to produce at the same time....

It's all in the rate isn't it? What's the cycle time on a moon mining pos, let's do this per hour like you were fond of....

How much moongo is cycled per hour, and how how many of those hours do you need to be online for it to cycle?

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#478 - 2013-04-02 23:25:29 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
You are so flawed it isn't even funny. Hellcamping in reprisal does not equal passive income.

Take the time to reread the thread. You are losing focus.


Well, now that you're calling Moon Mining an active income source, we can certainly see how it competes with other active income sources like Ice Mining.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#479 - 2013-04-02 23:32:26 UTC
When you manufacture, you can setup 30+ days worth of manufacturing. Nerf manufacturing, it's a passive income.

When you buy/sell at the market, you can setup buy/sell orders that last for 90 days. Nerf buying/selling, it's a passive income.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Frying Doom
#480 - 2013-04-02 23:34:54 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
When you manufacture, you can setup 30+ days worth of manufacturing. Nerf manufacturing, it's a passive income.

When you buy/sell at the market, you can setup buy/sell orders that last for 90 days. Nerf buying/selling, it's a passive income.

And these create resources out of thin air how?

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!