These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Warfare & Tactics

Forum Index

EVE Forums » EVE Gameplay Center » Warfare & Tactics » Farmatar: Or why fw is totally broken

Topic is locked indefinitely.

First pagePrevious page56789Next pageLast page

Farmatar: Or why fw is totally broken First post
Author

Previous Topic Next Topic

2manno Asp

Death By Design

Likes received: 305

#121 - 2013-04-01 18:21:26 UTC

Machiavelli's Nemesis wrote:

2manno Asp wrote:

Machiavelli's Nemesis wrote:

Once again, thank you for neatly encapsulating my point. :)

putting you in your place is what i do.

think of me as your savior, sweetie.

^_^

Keep telling yourself that. Whatever helps you sleep at night.

at least that's not hypocritical of you. playing delusional is consistent with pretending how you like to be mentally spanked.

hey, i might make stuff up too if it started to hurt that much. everyone has a breaking point.

Machiavelli's Nemesis

Angry Mustellid

Likes received: 503

#122 - 2013-04-01 18:38:48 UTC | Edited by: Machiavelli's Nemesis

2manno Asp wrote:

hey, i might make stuff up too if it started to hurt that much. everyone has a breaking point.

Interesting you should bring up breaking points. How many stabbed farming frigates do amarrs have to fail to catch before something snaps in their likkle brains and they start leaving weepy threads about how FW is howwibly bwoken and CCP are teh ebul minmatarz and everything is a massive conspiracy?

It's like you all have a broken hive mind thingy going on...

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=221355&find=unread
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=218860&find=unread
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=218479&find=unread
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=217155&find=unread
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=213296&find=unread
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=213388&find=unread
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=206666&find=unread
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=215614&find=unread

and that's just the first couple of pages.

Even threads only tangentially connected to FW turn into amarr cryathons. Maybe you should start a charity drive and you could monetise your tears a bit.

Flyinghotpocket

Small Focused Memes

Ragequit Cancel Sub

Likes received: 586

#123 - 2013-04-01 19:36:19 UTC

Machiavelli's Nemesis wrote:

*poasting in amarrtard weeping thread*

Didn't see you complaining about farming when amarrs held most of metro and the whole auga/dal constellation due to the farmarr alt horde.

Maybe your shoes have strategically placed spikes so they make you weep piteously only when you put them on the other foot or something.

Hypocrite.

i know you meant to say "when amarr held metro due to minmatar giving up on plexing for a few weeks"

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro

Cearain

Plus 10 NV

Likes received: 1,515

#124 - 2013-04-01 20:51:04 UTC

Machiavelli's Nemesis wrote:

2manno Asp wrote:

hey, i might make stuff up too if it started to hurt that much. everyone has a breaking point.

Should it be any surprise that the militia that always has the most kills per player wants fw sov to be more about pvp?

And the faction that has the most lp per player wants it to remain carebear heaven.

Everyone who isn't interested in joining the carebear race, called fw sov, is just a crybaby according to you? Ok whatever.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Taoist Dragon

Okata Syndicate

Likes received: 988

#125 - 2013-04-01 21:08:19 UTC

Machiavelli's Nemesis wrote:

2manno Asp wrote:

hey, i might make stuff up too if it started to hurt that much. everyone has a breaking point.

Mach you have way too much time on your hands Lol

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.

Perkin Warbeck

Higher Than Everest

Likes received: 250

#126 - 2013-04-02 00:47:48 UTC

chatgris wrote:

Farmers gonna farm :(

This. Farmers are going to farm irresepective of what instalocking, webbifying, decloaking, NPC boosting, timer reducing gismos you put in a plex to try and stop them entering or leaving ever again (unless it's in a capsule after being forced to fight that off grid boosted 'leet' PvPer who has been playing since EvE began).

The only thing that will stop a farmer farming FW is to reduce the amount of LP rewards available for plexing. Period. No other solution will prevent them because, as we have seen, they will just circumvent whatever 'fix' CCP implements if, god forbid, they actually listens to the suggestions in some of these threads.

Reduce the amount of LP you recieve when completing any plex to that received for completing a level 1 or 2 security mission and then see how many farmers are left in the warzone. Not many I would think.

But then ask yourselves the question - do you actually want that? Should everyone in FW have to find an alternative source of income to sustain themselves? It's no skin off my back but what about the new/casual player that may be attracted to FW and then leaves after a month because they have lost 20+ ships and can't afford to continue?

I hate farmers. They make a mockery of the sovereignty mechanism that attracted me to FW in the first place. But actually addressing the root of the problem may mean that FW becomes, once again, a backwater of EvE that noone really cares about. And then there will be even less targets.


2manno Asp Death By Design Likes received: 305	#127 - 2013-04-02 01:09:58 UTC \| Edited by: 2manno Asp i think the simplest thing to do is pursue a solution that trades the payout amounts of plex rewards & pvp kills. so a 20k LP kill instead of a 1.5k LP kill. a 1.5k LP plex instead of a 20k LP plex. make it so people can farm LP by pvp'ing, instead of plexing. or is this too easly gamed?

Rifterlings 580
Milton Middleson Rifterlings Likes received: 580	#128 - 2013-04-02 01:17:23 UTC Remember when Goons made grillions on Faction Warfare? It's a bit like that.

Cearain

Plus 10 NV

Likes received: 1,515

#129 - 2013-04-02 01:25:40 UTC | Edited by: Cearain

Perkin Warbeck wrote:

chatgris wrote:

Farmers gonna farm :(

The issue is technically not farming. The alts running defensive plexes in empty hulls aren't really making much isk. The problem is, that the most effective way to gain sov for your faction is to avoid pvp and use a pve ship.

This was the same problem before inferno when people got no lp for plexing at all. This was the core of the problem for fw sov and it was never fully addressed. (except the npcs were nerfed which was good)

You seem to think taking away isk will make fw sov a pvp game. I can tell you there were people who were saying the opposite. They were saying just give us isk consequences and it will make it a pvp game. Basically you are both wrong. Fiddling with isk payouts didn't really change a thing.

They need to make the game such that the most effective way to win sov for your militia is to stand and fight instead of always running and hiding. The timer rollbacks and notifications will do that.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

GavinGoodrich

Perkone

Caldari State

Likes received: 117

#130 - 2013-04-02 01:36:38 UTC

There's too many systems for the # of people living out here to handle like it's WW2 or a game of risk or something. There are plenty of areas in the "warzone" during any major war where a single shot was never fired, a life was never taken. Even in a gaming environment, hell *especially* in a gaming environment, it's no different! Expect areas to be quiet, expect other areas to be hot. Who cares if 17 backwater systems never see a shot fired? That's part of war, and that's a part of this game too! Everybody wins if we can all make isk and get pvp in the areas we actually care about.

Hell...post-retribution has seen more lowsec pew pew than i've seen when FW first came out and there were hundreds fighting hundreds. It's GREAT right now. Maybe a tweak here and there like a timer rollback, but overall this is way way better than it was

Haaaaaalp my head's on fire

Cearain

Plus 10 NV

Likes received: 1,515

#131 - 2013-04-02 02:32:06 UTC | Edited by: Cearain

GavinGoodrich wrote:

There's too many systems for the # of people living out here to handle like it's WW2 or a game of risk or something.

there are 170 systems and about 1900 fw players. The problem isn't too few players but its too few pvpers.

GavinGoodrich wrote:

There are plenty of areas in the "warzone" during any major war where a single shot was never fired, a life was never taken. Even in a gaming environment, hell *especially* in a gaming environment, it's no different! Expect areas to be quiet, expect other areas to be hot. Who cares if 17 backwater systems never see a shot fired? That's part of war, and that's a part of this game too! Everybody wins if we can all make isk and get pvp in the areas we actually care about.

Hell...post-retribution has seen more lowsec pew pew than i've seen when FW first came out and there were hundreds fighting hundreds. It's GREAT right now. Maybe a tweak here and there like a timer rollback, but overall this is way way better than it was

Its really more like 10 base systems and no one cares about the other 160 systems.

Yes I agree that low sec is much better now than it was before. But fw sov is still broken.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

IbanezLaney

The Church of Awesome

Likes received: 1,578

#132 - 2013-04-02 04:25:36 UTC

Cearain wrote:

GavinGoodrich wrote:

There's too many systems for the # of people living out here to handle like it's WW2 or a game of risk or something.

there are 170 systems and about 1900 fw players. The problem isn't too few players but its too few pvpers.

GavinGoodrich wrote:

Its really more like 10 base systems and no one cares about the other 160 systems.

Yes I agree that low sec is much better now than it was before. But fw sov is still broken.

Sov is only broken in places.

The Cal/Gal warzone is way too big.
It's hard to care about a FW system that's so far away you might only go there once a year.

However - in the main base systems - the sov war is fought by pvpers.
So FW sov does work if the conditions are right.

It's just how do you get it to work that way everywhere?

I personally don't think FW can ever be balanced with the 2 different sized war zones.

Amarr/Derpmatar war zone is about the right size.

Tier5 for Cal/Gal is not really possible. Just the LP needed into the Hubs + dplexing is double.

Caldari were tier 3 and advancing a few weeks ago but due to the smaller wz - it's was faster, easier and cheaper for the farmers to go to Minny and push a tier 5 than keep pushing Caldari to 4.

So no matter what happens in Cal/Gal - at about the Tier3 mark - the farmers will bail and push the other warzone.

So a minmatar T5 isn't that impressive when it means they plexed and dumped about the same LP the Caldari or Gallente have to do/dump just for T3.
Farmers gonna farm and swap sides until the Minny/Amarr wz takes the same effort to obtain a high tier in as the Caldari/SmellyFrog one.

https://soundcloud.com/ibanezlaney


Taoist Dragon Okata Syndicate Likes received: 988	#133 - 2013-04-02 06:15:49 UTC reduce incentive for people to diagonal plex. If you plex in cal space as a minnie player you get Gal LP at the rate of the Gal teirs not their home teirs. Simple. That is the Way, the Tao. Balance is everything.

David Devant

CTRL-Q

Ushra'Khan

Likes received: 204

#134 - 2013-04-02 09:59:28 UTC | Edited by: David Devant

Flyinghotpocket wrote:

Machiavelli's Nemesis wrote:

i know you meant to say "when amarr held metro due to minmatar giving up on plexing for a few weeks"

http://rust-in-pieces.org/kills/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=31905

Proof that you are the werst

Veshta Yoshida

PIE Inc.

Khimi Harar

Likes received: 917

#135 - 2013-04-02 10:41:28 UTC | Edited by: Veshta Yoshida

IbanezLaney wrote:

Sov is only broken in places....

Simplistic evaluation, but fairly accurate nonetheless. It all comes back to farmers vs. PvP'ers, outside of the HQ spheres (HQ plus 1-2 jumps) there really is not much in the way of action .. "out there" it is whack-a-mole .. and PvP centrics just don't have the patience or indeed time (gotta meet ones quota!) to chase around after stabbed, gunless cloaking alts.
= Autorun timers to alleviate. Will help make the invested time a little more worth it.

Another way (just came to me .. gotta love the brain smellies) to condense the action and hamstring farming is a variation of the frontline concept, reduce the LP gained the farther one gets from a 'friendly' system when O-plexing and the reverse when D-plexing .. say -33% per gate, so three jumps deep and you are plexing for glory (and future LP plexing) only.
Obviously a huge disadvantage to a steam-rolled militia so combine with a reversed tier (ie. +225% when at tier1) increase in VP (not LP!) gain from plexing .. it is the kind of diminishing return that should been introduced rather than the silly iHub-LP tax increase.

Taoist Dragon wrote:

reduce incentive for people to diagonal plex.

If you plex in cal space as a minnie player you get Gal LP at the rate of the Gal teirs not their home teirs. Simple.

Would certainly help with migration pattern of the farming swarm, but why not just remove diagonal LP entirely and be done with it? We have been crossing the zones from the beginning but up until LP-for-everything it was to actually assist the ally, with bodies in combat first and on buttons second, not for personal gain (well, apart from the funzor).

Perkin Warbeck

Higher Than Everest

Likes received: 250

#136 - 2013-04-02 12:22:12 UTC | Edited by: Perkin Warbeck

Cearain wrote:

They need to make the game such that the most effective way to win sov for your militia is to stand and fight instead of always running and hiding. The timer rollbacks and notifications will do that.

Timer rollbacks and notifications won't make anyone care about sovereignty and they will not stop farmers. No one is going to rush from Arzad to Avenod because Farmer X has opened a novice plex and I know that most PvPers will never stick around in a system to chase cloaky, stabbed alts out of every plex let alone run them all down. Timer rollbacks just delays the farmers job a little.

The fact is most people in the militias only care about warzone control because it directly affects the amount of LP they earn and many will only defend the systems they live in because they are afraid of station lock outs. You only have to smell the mass hysteria in militia when Kamela reaches 50% contested to see that.

I actually think Veshtas' proposal is not bad. Introducing the concept of a 'front line' in the warzone and reducing the tiered benefits does resolve a lot of problems with farming in quiet systems (although the amount of camping and blobbing in those front line systems would be horrendous). But i still think that to remove farming you have to remove the motivation for doing it and a farmers only motivation is LP.

Veshta Yoshida

PIE Inc.

Khimi Harar

Likes received: 917

#137 - 2013-04-02 12:56:53 UTC

Perkin Warbeck wrote:

...I actually think Veshtas' proposal is not bad. Introducing the concept of a 'front line' in the warzone and reducing the tiered benefits does resolve a lot of problems with farming in quiet systems (although the amount of camping and blobbing in those front line systems would be horrendous). But i still think that to remove farming you have to remove the motivation for doing it and a farmers only motivation is LP.

Clarifications:
- Tier benefits will still be in full effect, it will just add a downside to being big and fat .. Empires fall when they overextend .. except in Eve Smile

By doing a reverse type thing it will be almost impossible to get and maintain a tier 4-5 without a round the clock superiority both on button and in space.
- "Blobbing" will not happen as such as the die-hard farmers will accept the LP hit and plex away from the 'front' (in my example they'd prob. be doing it at -66%, or in other words two systems over).
- Plexing for control would remain viable in all of the warzone but at reduced/zero LP if a deep system, so the old FW cadre can still play their drama games and get some chest thumping done. If one manages to go deep it opens up a whole new plexing ground so there'd be value in a plexing push for 0 LP.

Hub/HQ systems and the connecting lanes have always been the most active, no reason for the farmers to be denied the pleasure that activity brings Big smile

Task Force 641 Empyrean Edict 1,855
Zarnak Wulf Task Force 641 Empyrean Edict Likes received: 1,855	#138 - 2013-04-02 13:08:44 UTC Milton Middleson wrote: Remember when Goons made grillions on Faction Warfare? It's a bit like that. And yet your group still can't invest in a booster alt.

Colt Blackhawk

Doomheim

Likes received: 333

#139 - 2013-04-02 13:20:31 UTC | Edited by: Colt Blackhawk

Quote:

And yet your group still can't invest in a booster alt.

Maybe because they want to get a good fight instead simply pwn someone with 5k m/s merlins?

On topic: Perkin is quite right but something like a frontline would mean only permablobs. Additional guerilla tactics for factions with less numbers would be impossible. We shouldn´t forget that amarr until january only survived because of guerilla tactics. The minnies blobbed amarr simply away. Most people in militia agreed we may not give them a direct target for their blobs and were doing good with it. Don´t know how many systems they lost during that time they concentrated on Kam. But it were many.
A frontline IS a direct target for the BLOB. FW would get like 0.0 and I hate killmails with 30+ people.

[09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f****** amarr flag and s*** on their smoking wrecks.

Desiderya

Blue Canary

Watch This

Likes received: 1,203

#140 - 2013-04-02 13:45:17 UTC

GavinGoodrich wrote:

Completely agree. The main issue with the impact of famers is that WZC is determined by all systems equally and that they're bloody annoying to fight. Granted, you can't force people to fight and everyone capable of using Dscan will be able to run, stabs or not.
I'd think about lowering the differences between the WZC levels and try to put them on a sliding scale and not just 5 absolute tiers, weigh active systems (kills/isk destroyed) over backwater systems regarding their WZC points or decouple defensive plexing and PvP kill LP from the warzone control LP modifier.

Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.

First pagePrevious page56789Next pageLast page

Warfare & Tactics

Death By Design

Angry Mustellid

Small Focused Memes

Ragequit Cancel Sub

Plus 10 NV

Okata Syndicate

Higher Than Everest

Rifterlings

Perkone

Caldari State

The Church of Awesome

CTRL-Q

Ushra'Khan

PIE Inc.

Khimi Harar

Task Force 641

Empyrean Edict

Doomheim

Blue Canary

Watch This