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Cap stable Cheetah not Cap Stable
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Jimmy Dickens
Abstergo Galactic
#1 - 2011-10-30 23:29:22 UTC
I have a ship that is SUPPOSED to be Cap Stable, but is definitely runs out of cap after a period of time I have not precisely measured. I would expect a certain margin of error for external tools, like EFT or EveHQ, but the game itself says"MODULES CAN BE SUSTAINED INDEFINITELY" at a cap level of 30.4% in the fitting window -

This is my fit:

[Cheetah, not-quite-cap-stable (???)]
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Catalyzed Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters
Cap Recharger II
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]

Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
Expanded Probe Launcher I, Sisters Combat Scanner Probe I
[empty high slot]

Small Gravity Capacitor Upgrade I
Small Gravity Capacitor Upgrade I

I think only three skills would affect cap consumption in this case:

High Speed Maneuvering=4
Energy Management=3
Energy Systems Operation=4

Obviously, leveling any of these SHOULD resolve my issue, but I was hoping someone could point out something I'm missing about the situation. If there are some other skills that should affect this, please let me know, and I'll post them

I understand that the fitting window's display is probably based on a formula, not a full simulation, but should I report this as a bug so they might refine their formula soon(TM) or does anyone care to take a guess as to why I eventually run out of cap?
1-Up Mushroom
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2011-10-30 23:34:43 UTC
Jimmy Dickens wrote:
I have a ship that is SUPPOSED to be Cap Stable, but is definitely runs out of cap after a period of time I have not precisely measured. I would expect a certain margin of error for external tools, like EFT or EveHQ, but the game itself says"MODULES CAN BE SUSTAINED INDEFINITELY" at a cap level of 30.4% in the fitting window -

This is my fit:

[Cheetah, not-quite-cap-stable (???)]
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Catalyzed Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters
Cap Recharger II
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]

Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
Expanded Probe Launcher I, Sisters Combat Scanner Probe I
[empty high slot]

Small Gravity Capacitor Upgrade I
Small Gravity Capacitor Upgrade I

I think only three skills would affect cap consumption in this case:

High Speed Maneuvering=4
Energy Management=3
Energy Systems Operation=4

Obviously, leveling any of these SHOULD resolve my issue, but I was hoping someone could point out something I'm missing about the situation. If there are some other skills that should affect this, please let me know, and I'll post them

I understand that the fitting window's display is probably based on a formula, not a full simulation, but should I report this as a bug so they might refine their formula soon(TM) or does anyone care to take a guess as to why I eventually run out of cap?

It's kind of hard to explain but I'll try my best. This happens with super close to cap stable ships.

You see the in-game fitting tool measures your cap in a perfect world scenario where you perfectly sync your mods to max cap stability.

Basicly that never happens and here's what actually happens. Lets say "perfect sync" would be where your mod uses it's cap and your cap level goes to down to 33% (where max cap recahrge is) and the amount of cap your mod uses in a cycle is equal to or less than the amount that you'd regen before that mod cycles again, but more often than not, your mod doesn't perfectly cycle w/ your cap and when it does cycle you cap is say at 30%, and not regenerating at it's max, therefore it can't keep up with your mod. This is often very subtle and takes some time for your cap to deplete.

So ya, the fitting screen is assuming perfect cycling while generally that doesn't happen. Hopefully I've explained it half decently
5 Senses In A Person... 4 Seasons In A Year... 3 Colors In A Stoplight... 2 Poles On The Earth... ONLY 1-UP MUSHROOM!!!  If You Like My Sig, Like Me!   Remember EVE is EVErything!
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2011-10-30 23:36:10 UTC
cap sustainability is actually broken below ~33%. the reason why the game says otherwise is because I think the game has a hard limit on time that can be displayed (10 minutes afaik?)

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
1-Up Mushroom
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2011-10-30 23:48:45 UTC
Grimpak wrote:
cap sustainability is actually broken below ~33%. the reason why the game says otherwise is because I think the game has a hard limit on time that can be displayed (10 minutes afaik?)


Actually not true, my old rattler's fitting screen said the cap lasted about 1h, 40 something minutes and something seconds before the cap ran out
5 Senses In A Person... 4 Seasons In A Year... 3 Colors In A Stoplight... 2 Poles On The Earth... ONLY 1-UP MUSHROOM!!!  If You Like My Sig, Like Me!   Remember EVE is EVErything!
Jimmy Dickens
Abstergo Galactic
#5 - 2011-10-30 23:56:40 UTC
I'm not sure what you mean by "sync"-ing mods. Though I can imagine certain fits needing to have certain modules activated at a certain time(s) in order to maintain that perfect balance and synchronization, in my case there is only one module that uses capacitor (the MWD). Is there something else you mean by "sync"?
1-Up Mushroom
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2011-10-30 23:59:38 UTC
Jimmy Dickens wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean by "sync"-ing mods. Though I can imagine certain fits needing to have certain modules activated at a certain time(s) in order to maintain that perfect balance and synchronization, in my case there is only one module that uses capacitor (the MWD). Is there something else you mean by "sync"?


By sync (with reference to one mod) I mean that if your cap stable that when the mod cycles and takes a chunk of your cap, your cap drops to exactly 33%, your peak recharge, if your mod was out of sync, when it would cycle, your cap would drop would drop lower than 33%, and therefore not have peak recharge
5 Senses In A Person... 4 Seasons In A Year... 3 Colors In A Stoplight... 2 Poles On The Earth... ONLY 1-UP MUSHROOM!!!  If You Like My Sig, Like Me!   Remember EVE is EVErything!
Jimmy Dickens
Abstergo Galactic
#7 - 2011-10-31 00:30:24 UTC
I suppose - except I also run in a prowler that actually perma-runs a MWD (at least I've not seen the limit) and when I first had the skills and modules to do that, the capacitor got to the point where it dropped each time to 28% (now it doesn't even get down to 35%). From my research, there is no official declaration of a capacitor (or shield) recharge formula - just some people that took the time to try out several that seem pretty darn close to fitting the curve, that peak at 33%. These facts tell me that the capacitor CAN drop below 33%, it's just that the AVERAGE (by some mysterious measure) is supposed to be 33%.

Thanks for your thoughts, though!
Jenn Makanen
Doomheim
#8 - 2011-10-31 00:36:20 UTC
Try it in evehq's fitter. there's a cap simulation in there.

Not perfect, but might show what's happening.
Kesshisan
#9 - 2011-10-31 00:49:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Kesshisan
1-Up Mushroom's information is accurate, but let me shed some more light on this subject for those who are interested.

Supposed Cap-stable-ships going unstabile is because a ship's maximum cap recharge peaks out at 30%. Ship that are supposedly cap stable below 35% can sometimes go cap unstable under the right/wrong circumstances. This phenomenon is called unstable equilibrium.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unstable_equilibrium for more

The wiki page doesn't do go into much detail, but it gives you a basic idea of what's going on here. Using the wiki with the information from 1-Up's post and most people should be able to grasp what's going on and why.
1-Up Mushroom
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2011-10-31 01:06:58 UTC
Kesshisan wrote:
1-Up Mushroom's information is accurate, but let me shed some more light on this subject for those who are interested.

Supposed Cap-stable-ships going unstabile is because a ship's maximum cap recharge peaks out at 30%. Ship that are supposedly cap stable below 35% can sometimes go cap unstable under the right/wrong circumstances. This phenomenon is called unstable equilibrium.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unstable_equilibrium for more

The wiki page doesn't do go into much detail, but it gives you a basic idea of what's going on here. Using the wiki with the information from 1-Up's post and most people should be able to grasp what's going on and why.


wow lol, I normally suck at explaining stuff, guess I didn't do too bad there Big smile
5 Senses In A Person... 4 Seasons In A Year... 3 Colors In A Stoplight... 2 Poles On The Earth... ONLY 1-UP MUSHROOM!!!  If You Like My Sig, Like Me!   Remember EVE is EVErything!
Veronica Kerrigan
Surgically Constructed L Feminist
#11 - 2011-10-31 04:59:00 UTC
AS far as I know, peak cap recharge is anywhere between 25% and 33%. I have a scimitar that was cap stable at 28 ish percent in game, and lo and behold, it was cap stable. I would assume that the microwarp drive is pushing you far enough out of your peak recharge that it isn't entering it before the next cycle. You could always put something like a small cap battery in a mid, or switch a nano for a PDS if you really need it to be cap stable
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
#12 - 2011-11-01 08:39:03 UTC
The way your cap stability is calculated is the primary issue.

Most, if not all, fitting tools calculate your cap usage by the second - and to do that they divide the cap usage of those high drain modules (your MWD in this case) by the cycle time. What that results in is an apparent cap drain of 3.6 cap/sec - something relatively easy to deal with...

What you're in fact getting though is a sudden pulse of 36 cap* every 10 seconds which is more than 10% of your total cap. If your cap is sitting at a nice, stable 33% just before the cycle kicks off then it's going to drop to a decidedly unstable twenty odd the moment it fires.

This is most noticable in frigate hulls due to their low capacitor capacity but is significant in any ship which is making use of very high drain modules.


*45 activation cost -20% for HSM [4]
DarkAegix
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2011-11-01 09:09:56 UTC
Let me add my terrible explanation of this cap stability conundrum!

Basically, your cap recharges fastest at 33%, any lower and you're bound to become unstable if you're skimming the edge.
For example, you pulse your MWD while at 34% cap, and then suddenly drop to 5% cap. Uh oh.
Your cap will recharge REALLY, REALLY slowly, and maybe only make it to 8% before the next cycle. Then you cap out.

Hopefully this concise and undetailed explanation has not dropped the collective IQ of the thread.
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#14 - 2011-11-01 11:18:35 UTC
Aslo you warped to the site, which drains capacitor, then you activated the MWD and screwed up the timing really. I imagine that is to blame as well. Could wait till cap charges a bit after warp in maybe to set it.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
Qalix
Long Jump.
#15 - 2011-11-01 14:10:25 UTC
On a practical note, I have a cap stable cheetah with mwd, cloak, nanos in the lows, low friction/hyperspatial rigs, and a probe launcher. I suspect the Warp explanation (having eaten some cap up) is the most likely. Its easy to test. Just undock, turn on the mwd and wait. If its stable, then the warp is the explanation.
Ruah Piskonit
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#16 - 2011-11-01 21:08:52 UTC
Jimmy Dickens wrote:

the game itself says"MODULES CAN BE SUSTAINED INDEFINITELY" at a cap level of 30.4% in the fitting window -


if its not cap stable at 33.3% its not cap stable.
Lady Go Diveher
Doomheim
#17 - 2011-11-02 11:26:43 UTC
Ruah Piskonit wrote:
Jimmy Dickens wrote:

the game itself says"MODULES CAN BE SUSTAINED INDEFINITELY" at a cap level of 30.4% in the fitting window -


if its not cap stable at 33.3% its not cap stable.


The highside of the peak is 33%, but as a peak, there is a backside, too.

Though a ship SHOULD run cap stable at 33% at the lowest, you can find a scenario where you run cap stable on the other side of the peak. For example, if you are cap stable at 35% and get neuted, you may find you can run all the mods again in a cap stable fashion at 28%

Splitting hairs, but true.
Mavnas
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2011-11-02 22:16:25 UTC
Ruah Piskonit wrote:
Jimmy Dickens wrote:

the game itself says"MODULES CAN BE SUSTAINED INDEFINITELY" at a cap level of 30.4% in the fitting window -


if its not cap stable at 33.3% its not cap stable.


Technically if you have mods on long cycles it can be. Because if your total use is lower than peak recharge, but it comes in big chunks you can still be cap stable as long as you go above 33.3% at some point during each cycle of that big power sucking mod, and not too far below 33.3%. This is all much less likely with bigger ships that have slower cap recharge times and bigger cap values.