These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Market Discussions

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Station Trading Bots - CCP Please do something about this!

First post First post
Author
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
#41 - 2013-03-27 17:14:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Brewlar Kuvakei
Then set up a nice macro and get part of the action. The sooner more peeps learn about ELUA legal macro's the better. Lets just destroy all margins in every eve hub so CCP can stop being able to sprout utter rubbish about a player run market.

They might actually clamp down on multi boxers and macro peeps then.
Angelique Duchemin
Team Evil
#42 - 2013-03-27 17:25:53 UTC
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
Then set up a nice macro and get part of the action. The sooner more peeps learn about ELUA legal macro's the better. Lets just destroy all margins in every eve hub so CCP can stop being able to sprout utter rubbish about a player run market.

They might actually clamp down on multi boxers and macro peeps then.


I'd rather just do what I do now. Fly around nullsec shooting stuff all day without a care for what the losses cost. if I ever need some additional ISK I'll just sell some plexes.

The very sun of heaven seemed distorted when viewed through the polarising miasma welling out from this sea-soaked perversion, and twisted menace and suspense lurked leeringly in those crazily elusive angles of carven rock where a second glance shewed concavity after the first shewed convexity.

joyous the
Slippery Penguin
#43 - 2013-03-27 17:29:20 UTC
Oki Troom wrote:
joyous the wrote:
There's a few hardcore traders in Dodi, because it is, actually a pretty lucrative market if you have market dominance. You are a less productive trader competing against constant updaters. Many markets in Dodi aren't updated frequently outside of a few, which makes for the avid traders within to quickly cycle though their orders and efficiently update, since most wont require an update/ or a minimal scroll-wheel flick.

You've laid out why you're not good enough for this market. Deal with the facts. You'll know a bot when you see it, and you're still lookin.

"not saying its not possible to make money Station Trading, I am just saying that if something isn't done about the trading bots - it soon will be. Anyone who has been trading for any period of time will tell you that bots are getting worse."

-It'd hold a bit more clout if you're a notable Jita trader saying this, not a guy being outplayed in #3.



Not sure what you are contributing to the discussion here other than, you're not in Jita and so are not l33t enough to have an opinion.
Thanks for your input...


No, as someone who trades in Dodi, I'm giving you reasons why the people outbidding you are most likely not bots. And I'm saying you, a trader who can't compete in Dodi, claiming soon noone will be able to make money on the market is simply wrong and dumb.
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#44 - 2013-03-27 18:14:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Bugsy VanHalen
Oki Troom wrote:


Just to clarify, I'm not at Jita, I'm at Dodixie.
And yes, you can always move to less profitable or lower volume items. The point I am trying to make though is that, as the number of botters increase, they will move into more an more of the market. As competition between botters increases and squeezes margins they will also start to compete in these areas. I am not saying its not possible to make money Station Trading, I am just saying that if something isn't done about the trading bots - it soon will be. Anyone who has been trading for any period of time will tell you that bots are getting worse.


I get were you are coming from, and I do not disagree that market botting is on the rise.

However I look at this as more an opportunity then a problem. Market bots, no matter how well programed are not human. They can not reason, and can not tell the difference between a manipulation attempt and a competitor. If you find a item that a true market bot is active on, you only need to test the bots reactions to find a way to exploit it. Not exploit the game, but the botter that is violating the rules. If you can figure out the programed rules that bot is following you can manipulate that bot for your own profits. If the bot is undercutting every sell order you place then manipulate them down with a series of small orders until there price drops below your profit threshold. then you can buy out there orders and repost them at a higher value.

All high volume items move up and down in value constantly. if you know what the range you can expect to see is you can play that market very easily. play right along with the 0.01 iskers, even jump by larger amounts that you know they will undercut by 0.01 isk. when the price gets down buy up the lower orders, all of them and quickly. then you can repost them at a value you know the bounce back will exceed. even if it is only a 1-2% profit, if you do this in high volume you can make massive isk. market bots make this easier not harder. you just need to determine the bots threshold and snap up the orders 1-2 isk before the bot hits its threshold.

We can not expect CCP to eliminate the bots for us. not matter what they do the botters will very quickly adapt and keep going. They are doing a good job of identifying bots and locking there accounts, but there are always new ones popping up. If however, the non botters continue to out play the bots, which is easy to do, the players using the bots will stop as they will be losing isk.

The big problem is not with bots but with isk sellers and is something that can never truly be addressed in any MMO. The problem is there are many businesses in third world countries where MMO games are a major source of income. If you could pay 200 people $2 per day to play an MMO with a dedicated focus on efficient raising of ingame wealth with no regard for having fun. It is a job after all. and they each make enough isk/gold/credits what ever that in game currency is, to sell that thru the companies website for even $50 per week that company is making great returns.

Consider this, a $15 sub which is common for MMO's plus $2 per day adds up to $75 per month cost to the company. If each employee is averaging them $50 week income from selling the earned in game currency for real money thru the companies website,, that is $200 per month. Or $125 profit. multiply that by 200 employees that is $25,000 per month. Ad administration fees and building maintenance, etc, they are still going to be making at least $15,000-$20,000 per month profit. Not a lot of money for a company of 200 employees, at least not in the US or western Europe. But in a country where the average monthly income for a person is only $40-$60 per month that is a lot of money. And these employees are grateful as it is one of the best paying jobs in their county. In a country where the equivalent of $2 USD per day is a really good gob a company making $20,000 per month is a very successful company.

this is why botting and thrid party gold/isk sellers will never die. it is not some guy in his basement trying to make a little extra money, it is companies in third world country's with no other option to make that kind on money.
Angelique Duchemin
Team Evil
#45 - 2013-03-27 18:25:41 UTC
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
Consider this, a $15 sub which is common for MMO's plus $2 per day adds up to $75 per month cost to the company. If each employee is averaging them $50 week income from selling the earned in game currency for real money thru the companies website,, that is $200 per month. Or $125 profit. multiply that by 200 employees that is $25,000 per month. Ad administration fees and building maintenance, etc, they are still going to be making at least $15,000-$20,000 per month profit. Not a lot of money for a company of 200 employees, at least not in the US or western Europe. But in a country where the average monthly income for a person is only $40-$60 per month that is a lot of money. And these employees are grateful as it is one of the best paying jobs in their county. In a country where the equivalent of $2 USD per day is a really good gob a company making $20,000 per month is a very successful company.

this is why botting and thrid party gold/isk sellers will never die. it is not some guy in his basement trying to make a little extra money, it is companies in third world country's with no other option to make that kind on money.


But who cares if thousands of people in poor countries feed their families with the money they make on this. They are effecting my time sink internet space ships so it's morally unjustifiable and they are evil for it.

The very sun of heaven seemed distorted when viewed through the polarising miasma welling out from this sea-soaked perversion, and twisted menace and suspense lurked leeringly in those crazily elusive angles of carven rock where a second glance shewed concavity after the first shewed convexity.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#46 - 2013-03-27 20:01:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Angelique Duchemin wrote:


I'd accept that if there weren't 1500 of you sitting in the same station buying up and reselling the same things that the miner just dropped off.

All those billions that are generated in between the industry and the consumer weren't spun out of thin air.


I don't sit at Jita. Look at it in another perspective: station trading is like the "starter system"s for a trader. Expecially in the "low entry barrier" characteristic. Later on they switch to swing trading (me), market manipulations, pre patch and then post patch speculation and many other avenues.
LittleTerror
Illuminated Foundation Trust
#47 - 2013-03-30 14:39:21 UTC
sixth sense wrote:
the most deterrent about trading are the 0.1 ISK games. why not give orders a minimum time of 1 - 6 hours after changing it...


because the bots would still beat you, stupid idea is stupid.
LittleTerror
Illuminated Foundation Trust
#48 - 2013-03-30 15:33:07 UTC  |  Edited by: LittleTerror
I can sit and update my orders for long periods of time but I'm human and I eventually crack and need to walk away from the PC and take a break from it, its not human for someone to be able to sit at their machines updating orders constantly for 6 - 12 hours everyday, its just not.

Fortunately I don't have to because I use various trade strategies that take away most of the hard work.

Hint.

Find only items that have a decent profit margin, something like 15% or greater but over 25% is good, do not bother with something that only generates 3% or something crap like that, otherwise enjoy your pathetic 100 mil per week...

Work out the average hourly volume traded, so in the price history table sort by date with most recent at the top, add the volume amounts over the last 5 - 10 days excluding the current day at the top, and taking care to avoid including abnormally high or low values, divide that value by the number of days you added to find the daily average. Divide that value by 24 to find out the average hourly volume traded, then a little trick I use, I divide the hourly amount by 2, this insures that I'm taking into consideration that the volume is both buy and sell, since it would take too much work to manually work out from spreadsheet imports to difference between the 2.

Multiple that by the hours you think you are willing to sit at your computer, now set up your buy order with that volume, for example titanium chromide shows it has a margin of 16% and its average sell price is climbing, so that's good item to invest in today, it might not be tomorrow but today its good...

I work out that titanium chromide has an average trading volume of 326,591 units over the past 10 days not including today's trades so it averages just over 13k per hour, when I divide the value by 2 I get 6,803 , so I multiply that value by 4 giving me 4 hours worth of stock 27,215 which I can now buy and sell confidently within 4 hours and the total isk needed will be around 74,089,571.7 isk when I sell the stock I'll make around 12 million isk on that item over 4 hours, so roughly 3 million isk per hour for just that item, so do you see what I mean about doing the research and understanding how it works...

Sorry I suck at explaining things in writing but maybe it will help lessen the frustration, its so much better to camp 5 - 10 items and make 25% or more profit than it is to camp over 100 mostly crap items and totally burn out after 3 days and then coming to whine on the forums about trade bots Blink

/edit

This is obviously from a station trader perspective but it could be taken to the regional level with some thought!
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
#49 - 2013-03-31 05:08:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Kara Books
LittleTerror wrote:
I can sit and update my orders for long periods of time but I'm human and I eventually crack and need to walk away from the PC and take a break from it, its not human for someone to be able to sit at their machines updating orders constantly for 6 - 12 hours everyday, its just not.

Fortunately I don't have to because I use various trade strategies that take away most of the hard work.

Hint.

Find only items that have a decent profit margin, something like 15% or greater but over 25% is good, do not bother with something that only generates 3% or something crap like that, otherwise enjoy your pathetic 100 mil per week...

Work out the average hourly volume traded, so in the price history table sort by date with most recent at the top, add the volume amounts over the last 5 - 10 days excluding the current day at the top, and taking care to avoid including abnormally high or low values, divide that value by the number of days you added to find the daily average. Divide that value by 24 to find out the average hourly volume traded, then a little trick I use, I divide the hourly amount by 2, this insures that I'm taking into consideration that the volume is both buy and sell, since it would take too much work to manually work out from spreadsheet imports to difference between the 2.

Multiple that by the hours you think you are willing to sit at your computer, now set up your buy order with that volume, for example titanium chromide shows it has a margin of 16% and its average sell price is climbing, so that's good item to invest in today, it might not be tomorrow but today its good...

I work out that titanium chromide has an average trading volume of 326,591 units over the past 10 days not including today's trades so it averages just over 13k per hour, when I divide the value by 2 I get 6,803 , so I multiply that value by 4 giving me 4 hours worth of stock 27,215 which I can now buy and sell confidently within 4 hours and the total isk needed will be around 74,089,571.7 isk when I sell the stock I'll make around 12 million isk on that item over 4 hours, so roughly 3 million isk per hour for just that item, so do you see what I mean about doing the research and understanding how it works...

Sorry I suck at explaining things in writing but maybe it will help lessen the frustration, its so much better to camp 5 - 10 items and make 25% or more profit than it is to camp over 100 mostly crap items and totally burn out after 3 days and then coming to whine on the forums about trade bots Blink

/edit

This is obviously from a station trader perspective but it could be taken to the regional level with some thought!


you end up with the mats in low-nul, becomes tedious hauling them out once a month or 2

on a side note, the explanation was pretty good.
eventually one learns to look at an items history and guestimate fairly accurately at the expected income for every hour spent with orders on top at said prices.
If the item makes 750K per hour then its worth using 2 market slots. aka 308 times 750K =281M per hour.
EditV
half of 281 = 140.5 per hour
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#50 - 2013-03-31 15:32:42 UTC
The thing about .01 isking is: It's the right thing to do.

What you don't want, is 2 or 3 players changing prices by huge margins. Those 3 guys can cut all your margins in 15 minutes if they start bumping prices by large amounts.
Angelique Duchemin
Team Evil
#51 - 2013-03-31 17:29:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Angelique Duchemin
I've been buying Warrior II drones in Jita using buy orders. I needed 500 to nullsec so I figured a buy order of 500 set somewhere between the buy and sell order prices would get me some quick drones.

The buy order price instead went from 378k per drone to now 426k per drone in about 30 minutes. The sell orders being 427k.

And I still only have 106 of the 500 drones I was looking for.

Once I have my 500 drones the price is going to crash.


If you station traders had just let me have my 500 drones at 400k then the price could go back to 378k once I was done.

The very sun of heaven seemed distorted when viewed through the polarising miasma welling out from this sea-soaked perversion, and twisted menace and suspense lurked leeringly in those crazily elusive angles of carven rock where a second glance shewed concavity after the first shewed convexity.

Plyn
Uncharted.
#52 - 2013-04-01 17:48:55 UTC
Lots of arm flapping panic going on in this thread.

If you get outbid immediately it doesn't mean it's a bot.
If you update your price randomly (more than .01 over the next) and you get .01'd it doesn't mean it's a bot.

I run buy orders in Dodixie as well (not on this character). Sometimes after I update all my buy orders I keep my market character open on my other screen while I'm off doing fun stuff with this one. I notice out of the corner of my eye that someone just outbid my most recently updated order, outbidding me by 1,573.12 isk. I modify my order, typing in the price because I'm hella fast with 10-key and it's too much to bother mouse wheel flicking. I up them by .01 because I care about money and maximizing profit is, in fact, the most reasonable and rational thing for someone to do.

Then I go through all my orders, because if someone just outbid this one, they are probably going through and doing the others too.
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
#53 - 2013-04-01 18:16:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Brewlar Kuvakei
Plyn wrote:
Lots of arm flapping panic going on in this thread.

If you get outbid immediately it doesn't mean it's a bot.
If you update your price randomly (more than .01 over the next) and you get .01'd it doesn't mean it's a bot.

I run buy orders in Dodixie as well (not on this character). Sometimes after I update all my buy orders I keep my market character open on my other screen while I'm off doing fun stuff with this one. I notice out of the corner of my eye that someone just outbid my most recently updated order, outbidding me by 1,573.12 isk. I modify my order, typing in the price because I'm hella fast with 10-key and it's too much to bother mouse wheel flicking. I up them by .01 because I care about money and maximizing profit is, in fact, the most reasonable and rational thing for someone to do.

Then I go through all my orders, because if someone just outbid this one, they are probably going through and doing the others too.



Why bother you can easily get a market tool that will notify you when you've been 1 isked and provided a new value for you to copy and past straight into eve. Some will even open the correct wallet order for you to do this. It's totally EULA legal.

Sometimes noobs think that this sort of action is against the rules and they come onto the forum to complain. I've complained about this when I was a noob too. People just need to learn where they can get the EULA legal tools so they can do it too. With a good eve tool and 1/2hr you can make around 1bn isk per day just afk trading.
Captain-Jean LucPicard
Doomheim
#54 - 2013-04-01 18:28:41 UTC
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:


Why bother you can easily get a market tool that will notify you when you've been 1 isked and provided a new value for you to copy and past straight into eve. Some will even open the correct wallet order for you to do this. It's totally EULA legal.


because you say so? it might be not be easy to backtrack, but 100% EULA lega as you say, I´m not sure.
Rhivre
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#55 - 2013-04-01 19:29:09 UTC
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
[

Why bother you can easily get a market tool that will notify you when you've been 1 isked and provided a new value for you to copy and past straight into eve. Some will even open the correct wallet order for you to do this. It's totally EULA legal.

Sometimes noobs think that this sort of action is against the rules and they come onto the forum to complain. I've complained about this when I was a noob too. People just need to learn where they can get the EULA legal tools so they can do it too. With a good eve tool and 1/2hr you can make around 1bn isk per day just afk trading.


"3.You may not use your own or any third-party software, macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game."

Not sure that something which automates opening the right wallet order for you is within this.
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
#56 - 2013-04-02 06:31:33 UTC
Angelique Duchemin wrote:
I've been buying Warrior II drones in Jita using buy orders. I needed 500 to nullsec so I figured a buy order of 500 set somewhere between the buy and sell order prices would get me some quick drones.

The buy order price instead went from 378k per drone to now 426k per drone in about 30 minutes. The sell orders being 427k.

And I still only have 106 of the 500 drones I was looking for.

Once I have my 500 drones the price is going to crash.


If you station traders had just let me have my 500 drones at 400k then the price could go back to 378k once I was done.


But the thing is, you and all the traders knew for 100% fact this was never going to happen.
The mentality is, if you want it cheep then good luck because there's 50K people on the servers who want it cheep while 1-50 of them are directly fighting over that exact cheep.

you should take great care not to do it with any character that will ever fly costly things or industrial ships, because no one ever sells just 1 drone.
11 of 11
The 11th Hour
Abacus Alliance.
#57 - 2013-04-02 07:20:44 UTC
Oh well geez. Right before my own eyes.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=221568&find=unread

I do believe I have proof of a bot. There's no way at all that you can have one single item and 23 hours a day it is automatically undercut by .11 every time you change your order.

If CCP wants to know what item this bot is running on lemme know.

CCP doesn't allow this, correct?

11 of 11

Premier Sovian
New Sun Ventures
#58 - 2013-04-02 09:24:36 UTC
RavenPaine wrote:
The thing about .01 isking is: It's the right thing to do.

What you don't want, is 2 or 3 players changing prices by huge margins. Those 3 guys can cut all your margins in 15 minutes if they start bumping prices by large amounts.


This is how you beat people with 0.01 programs. Playing to their game and going .01 lower (Only to be immediately undercut again)isn't the 'right thing to do' it's the way to make sure you barely sell anything.

If you've got more free time to kill than you know what to do with .01 away but for new players I'd recommend working how to make around 10% profit on the sale and then cutting towards that with a grim determination. It's working great for me.
Rhivre
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#59 - 2013-04-02 09:28:40 UTC
Premier Sovian wrote:

If you've got more free time to kill than you know what to do with .01 away but for new players I'd recommend working how to make around 10% profit on the sale and then cutting towards that with a grim determination. It's working great for me.



I agree, I never go below 10% on items personally, because it is easy to calculate, and saves me having to grind corp/faction rep
11 of 11
The 11th Hour
Abacus Alliance.
#60 - 2013-04-02 09:31:28 UTC
Okay so we have established that everyone has seen the market bots.

Is it CCP cheating at their own game?

If that is the case I am gone.

Is CCP cheating?

11 of 11