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Marauders buffs
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supernova ranger
The End of Eternity
#1 - 2013-04-01 14:40:08 UTC
So I can finally fly Marauders but won't even buy one cause they are useless. Their role to mission and salvage is over with a noctis present and their firepower is less then that of their pirate counterparts while being just as expensive.

I'd like to see the Marauders kept in play but used more effectively where noctises can't go. I think by giving them bonuses to target spectrum breakers, +warp core stabilization, and the re-target lock time reduced for de-cloaking would be a good starting place to see them move into lowsec to do missions.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2013-04-01 15:15:42 UTC
supernova ranger wrote:
So I can finally fly Marauders but won't even buy one cause they are useless. Their role to mission and salvage is over with a noctis present and their firepower is less then that of their pirate counterparts while being just as expensive.

I'd like to see the Marauders kept in play but used more effectively where noctises can't go. I think by giving them bonuses to target spectrum breakers, +warp core stabilization, and the re-target lock time reduced for de-cloaking would be a good starting place to see them move into lowsec to do missions.



First, marauders will get a balance pass at some point. And I am not saying they don't need some updates. But they are not as bad as you seem to claim.

I don't have experience with all of them, but I can talk about the Kronos/vindicator.

Using similar fits (both standard incursion fits) they actually perform similarily.

Kronos with blasters and Void does 1361 DPS
Vindicator with blasters and void does 1456DPS

Kronos does it however with only 4 turrets vs 8. So lower cap usage and ammo costs.
Kronos can fit utility in the highs. For example in incursions it can save the day when a logi disconnects (been in that situation several times).
Kronos has standard T2 resists.

At current sell prices they cost:

Kronos- 850,000000.00
Vindicator- 1,500,000,000.00

So in reality, the Kronos is about half the cost of the Vindicator. Does similar damage with half the guns. The only real thing the Vindicator has going for it is a lower training time.


Bottom line, yes they could still use some balancing. But they aren't as horrible as you are making them out to be.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#3 - 2013-04-01 15:37:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
Yeah I've said a few times I feel they are a bit underwhelming for the title of marauder - suggested the ability to give them bonuses to overheating (or a "heat sink" module) to kind of fit with the decription of something that can do a massive burst of damage/tanking but can't sustain it.


I do like the Kronos tho as Derath said the utility highs can be really useful.
0racle
Galactic Rangers
#4 - 2013-04-01 16:23:53 UTC
Here's an idea. Remove the sensor strength penalty, decrease cargo capacity to be in line with other battleships of their "tier" and then give them +2 warp strength as a fixed bonus.

No more "oh no ec-300s time to get jammed", making them more viable if they get into a PVP situation which is very common in more dangerous areas of space.

Cargo capacity was always ridiculous on those things, even more so that metal scraps doesn't take up a ridiculous amount of capacity anymore.

+2 Strength would give it a role similiar to Transport ships and Skiffs. They'd be able to rat with relative safety even if they're scrammed and if they find themselves in need of warping out they'd be able to just fine.

That's my proposal.
supernova ranger
The End of Eternity
#5 - 2013-04-01 16:35:20 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
supernova ranger wrote:
So I can finally fly Marauders but won't even buy one cause they are useless. Their role to mission and salvage is over with a noctis present and their firepower is less then that of their pirate counterparts while being just as expensive.

I'd like to see the Marauders kept in play but used more effectively where noctises can't go. I think by giving them bonuses to target spectrum breakers, +warp core stabilization, and the re-target lock time reduced for de-cloaking would be a good starting place to see them move into lowsec to do missions.



First, marauders will get a balance pass at some point. And I am not saying they don't need some updates. But they are not as bad as you seem to claim.

I don't have experience with all of them, but I can talk about the Kronos/vindicator.

Using similar fits (both standard incursion fits) they actually perform similarily.

Kronos with blasters and Void does 1361 DPS
Vindicator with blasters and void does 1456DPS

Kronos does it however with only 4 turrets vs 8. So lower cap usage and ammo costs.
Kronos can fit utility in the highs. For example in incursions it can save the day when a logi disconnects (been in that situation several times).
Kronos has standard T2 resists.

At current sell prices they cost:

Kronos- 850,000000.00
Vindicator- 1,500,000,000.00

So in reality, the Kronos is about half the cost of the Vindicator. Does similar damage with half the guns. The only real thing the Vindicator has going for it is a lower training time.


Bottom line, yes they could still use some balancing. But they aren't as horrible as you are making them out to be.


fair enough, the vindicator pulls away from the other maruaders in price but there is still the golem, vargur, and paladin
against the bhaalgorn, machariel, and rattlesnake which close that isk gap - i think the vindicator is expensive as it is because it is a special case being able to go shields or armor and has web bonuses.

Your incorrect on less training time though... battleship is an 8x skill where marauders is 10x while requiring max fitting skills essentially. Making the comparison 8x + 8x vs 8x + 10x + extras...

They are described as "Nevertheless, these thick-skinned, hard-hitting monsters are the perfect ships to take on long trips behind enemy lines." and are anything but that. They need to be bonuses in someway that allows them to avoid larger enemy fleets or survive them, maybe both to accomplish this. I don't see them in highsec let alone in lowsec.
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2013-04-01 16:35:29 UTC
0racle wrote:
Here's an idea. Remove the sensor strength penalty, decrease cargo capacity to be in line with other battleships of their "tier" and then give them +2 warp strength as a fixed bonus.

No more "oh no ec-300s time to get jammed", making them more viable if they get into a PVP situation which is very common in more dangerous areas of space.

Cargo capacity was always ridiculous on those things, even more so that metal scraps doesn't take up a ridiculous amount of capacity anymore.

+2 Strength would give it a role similiar to Transport ships and Skiffs. They'd be able to rat with relative safety even if they're scrammed and if they find themselves in need of warping out they'd be able to just fine.

That's my proposal.


The skiff lost it's warp stability, so it's only deep space transport ships and the venture that have that trait I think.

Marauders already have 3 extra high slots because of the +100% damage on 4 weapons layout, I don't think that adding two extra modules of free stuff is the way to go. They need to figure out how they're going to exist along side of pirate battleships.
0racle
Galactic Rangers
#7 - 2013-04-01 16:42:06 UTC  |  Edited by: 0racle
Ersahi Kir wrote:
0racle wrote:
Here's an idea. Remove the sensor strength penalty, decrease cargo capacity to be in line with other battleships of their "tier" and then give them +2 warp strength as a fixed bonus.

No more "oh no ec-300s time to get jammed", making them more viable if they get into a PVP situation which is very common in more dangerous areas of space.

Cargo capacity was always ridiculous on those things, even more so that metal scraps doesn't take up a ridiculous amount of capacity anymore.

+2 Strength would give it a role similiar to Transport ships and Skiffs. They'd be able to rat with relative safety even if they're scrammed and if they find themselves in need of warping out they'd be able to just fine.

That's my proposal.


The skiff lost it's warp stability, so it's only deep space transport ships and the venture that have that trait I think.

Marauders already have 3 extra high slots because of the +100% damage on 4 weapons layout, I don't think that adding two extra modules of free stuff is the way to go. They need to figure out how they're going to exist along side of pirate battleships.


You could also perhaps remove one high slot. Utility slots being used for something like a Salvager and a Tractor beam.

You know, to add something onto that dude said about "thick-skinned" ships. Marauders actually kinda blow on the resists side of things and end up looking like a T1 ship.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2013-04-01 16:48:27 UTC
supernova ranger wrote:

Your incorrect on less training time though... battleship is an 8x skill where marauders is 10x while requiring max fitting skills essentially. Making the comparison 8x + 8x vs 8x + 10x + extras...



I think you read my post backwards. I was saying that the pirate BS are a lower training time.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#9 - 2013-04-01 16:54:54 UTC
Wouldn't want to see them lose the cargo space - gives them a few fun possibilities even if its just stuffing them full of cap charges :D

On the fence regarding the warp strength bonus as it feels a bit cheap but it does kinda fit the role more.
Destructor1792
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2013-04-01 17:02:40 UTC
supernova ranger wrote:
So I can finally fly Marauders but won't even buy one cause they are useless. Their role to mission and salvage is over with a noctis present and their firepower is less then that of their pirate counterparts while being just as expensive.

I'd like to see the Marauders kept in play but used more effectively where noctises can't go. I think by giving them bonuses to target spectrum breakers, +warp core stabilization, and the re-target lock time reduced for de-cloaking would be a good starting place to see them move into lowsec to do missions.


Unless you don't have the support skills trained up, there is nothing wrong with Marauders.

There is a reason why their sensor strength is low - They are mission boats, pure and simple & not designed for PvP
DPS wise - again, nothing wrong them (half the high slot space for guns / missiles ~ massive dps bonus)
Tank wise - You can fit some stupidly high tanks on these things.


Honestly, if they were that rubbish, I would just use my pirate faction BS but guess what, they're not.

Correct fitting and having the right support skills in place, Marauders are animals Twisted

Not fired a shot in anger since 2011.... Trigger finger is starting to get somewhat itchy.......
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2013-04-01 17:36:01 UTC
Destructor1792 wrote:
supernova ranger wrote:
So I can finally fly Marauders but won't even buy one cause they are useless. Their role to mission and salvage is over with a noctis present and their firepower is less then that of their pirate counterparts while being just as expensive.

I'd like to see the Marauders kept in play but used more effectively where noctises can't go. I think by giving them bonuses to target spectrum breakers, +warp core stabilization, and the re-target lock time reduced for de-cloaking would be a good starting place to see them move into lowsec to do missions.


Unless you don't have the support skills trained up, there is nothing wrong with Marauders.

There is a reason why their sensor strength is low - They are mission boats, pure and simple & not designed for PvP
DPS wise - again, nothing wrong them (half the high slot space for guns / missiles ~ massive dps bonus)
Tank wise - You can fit some stupidly high tanks on these things.


Honestly, if they were that rubbish, I would just use my pirate faction BS but guess what, they're not.

Correct fitting and having the right support skills in place, Marauders are animals Twisted


Marauders are beasts with beast tanks, I'll agree with that. But the faction ships > marauders because gank is the best tank in missions. With all the fine tuning of ships the faction battleships clear missions faster than marauders, and that leaves the niche of the marauders underwhelming.

The bonuses to salvaging on the ship doesn't really add any useful utility either, as if you're seriously going to salvage it's probably better to fit a noctus and clean up after (or alt it, like everyone probably does anyway). I also think it's better to have 2 racial battleships trained to 5 (for pirate faction battleships) instead of having the option of flying the racial marauder.

With all the being said I like the way the vargr looks, so I trained for minmatar marauders.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2013-04-01 21:12:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Derath Ellecon
Ersahi Kir wrote:
Destructor1792 wrote:
supernova ranger wrote:
So I can finally fly Marauders but won't even buy one cause they are useless. Their role to mission and salvage is over with a noctis present and their firepower is less then that of their pirate counterparts while being just as expensive.

I'd like to see the Marauders kept in play but used more effectively where noctises can't go. I think by giving them bonuses to target spectrum breakers, +warp core stabilization, and the re-target lock time reduced for de-cloaking would be a good starting place to see them move into lowsec to do missions.


Unless you don't have the support skills trained up, there is nothing wrong with Marauders.

There is a reason why their sensor strength is low - They are mission boats, pure and simple & not designed for PvP
DPS wise - again, nothing wrong them (half the high slot space for guns / missiles ~ massive dps bonus)
Tank wise - You can fit some stupidly high tanks on these things.


Honestly, if they were that rubbish, I would just use my pirate faction BS but guess what, they're not.

Correct fitting and having the right support skills in place, Marauders are animals Twisted


Marauders are beasts with beast tanks, I'll agree with that. But the faction ships > marauders because gank is the best tank in missions. With all the fine tuning of ships the faction battleships clear missions faster than marauders, and that leaves the niche of the marauders underwhelming.

The bonuses to salvaging on the ship doesn't really add any useful utility either, as if you're seriously going to salvage it's probably better to fit a noctus and clean up after (or alt it, like everyone probably does anyway). I also think it's better to have 2 racial battleships trained to 5 (for pirate faction battleships) instead of having the option of flying the racial marauder.

With all the being said I like the way the vargr looks, so I trained for minmatar marauders.


While I would agree that for their extra training time, mauraders could use an update, I don't see them as universally worse than their faction counterparts.

As I posted above, the Kronos is competitive with the vindicator, and has the benefit of doing so while using half the ammo and half the hull price.

Never flown a vargur before but people seem to rave about it.

Rattlesnake is hard to compare, as it really doesn't have a maurader to directly compare to. It has a special place that IMO doesn't degrade the maurader choices.

The bhaalgorn is also a unique beast, that doesn't really compare to say a paladin. They fit very different roles.

The Mach of course is wildly over the top and will probably get the nerf bat at some point.

Regardless however, they will get looked at when their balance pass comes up. Given the people on the CCP shop balance team I expect it to be a reasonable adjustment.


[edit]

I will say given their description. They do tend to fail in that role.

Geared toward versatility and prolonged deployment in hostile environments, Marauders represent the cutting edge in today’s warship technology.
Akuyaku
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2013-04-01 22:25:02 UTC
Destructor1792 wrote:
[quote=supernova ranger]

Unless you don't have the support skills trained up, there is nothing wrong with Marauders.

There is a reason why their sensor strength is low - They are mission boats

that can't do guristas missions because they get permajammed.
PsyDrakoon
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2013-04-02 00:44:17 UTC
i love my Vargur, ist a great ship.

Before the Vargur i got the Machariel, also a nice ship.

but Vargur is a T2 Ship, yeah it nice, only 4 weapons and same dmg as 8.
Vargur have also a nice Tank.

But, for a T2 Ship, it has way to less Sensorstrength, the lockon time sucks.
Also the Dronebay is way to small for a T2 Battleship, 75m3 wtf? even a Machariel have 125m3.

The max Shield HP is strange too, even a Maelstrom has more Shield HP.
Sure Marauder have some extra resistance, but hey, ist a T2 ship, it should be better then a T1 Ship.

Naked, the Vargur has only 1'000 EHP more then a Maelstrom, thats a joke sorry.


But what i hate at most, is the fu*** damn small Powergrid.
Dude i can understand that ist hard do Balance such ships, but why the hell are i (we) forced to use AC's?
Some People would like to see Vargur with Artys,

I would like to use Artys, but i cant, not even the 1200er, the Powergrid is way to small.

So, my idea is, take down the Powergrid even more, and give it the same Bonus from Tornado, less needed Powergrid and CpU für L weapons.
So we have the Option to use ACs or Artys.



The DpS itself is ok, i dont see a reason to boost that.
StrongSmartSexy
Phenix Revolution
#15 - 2013-04-02 03:59:21 UTC  |  Edited by: StrongSmartSexy
Some thoughts:

Kronos:
Once one of two ships that had a bonus to webbing % effectiveness and the only ship to combine it with hybrid weapon bonuses.
Not long after, CCP changed Serpentis Ships' 5% less penalty to MWD cap amount bonus to webbing % effectiveness thus trumping one of the only reasons/advantages to ever use a Kronos for PvP since the Vindicator could do the same but has more EHP, an extra mid slot, 5 heavy drones, higher sensor strength and takes less time to jump into one.

Currently, much cheaper than the Vindi but nowhere near as viable for PvP for reasons applicable to all marauders.
At the very least, the Kronos deserves 125 bandwidth to field 5 heavy drones.

If CCP decides to make marauders a little more PvP focused, how would the Kronos be balanced to make it almost as preferable as a Vindi because a 600m cheaper price tag isn't enough.

Paladin:
5% to capacitor capacity bonus needs to be changed to 7.5% Energy turret optimal range and the base capacitor amount increased just like they did with the Apocalypse way back in the Trinity 1.1 patch - seriously, why wasn't this change made during the same patch?
Paladin is based off the apocalypse hull and while the latter ship got a needed buff, paladin was ignored.

Golem:
Should deserve the raven hull's 5% rate of fire bonus in place of the almost-useless and inappropriate 5% explosion velocity bonus. Powergrid of torps or the ship itself could use some attention too.

Vargur:
Given that all the other marauders can fit a full rack of T2 guns/launchers from any of their respective weapon class, by what reason or logic is the Vargur denied the ability to fit T2 1400s without the use of multiple powergrid mods?
Vargur deserves a pg buff to comfortably fit artillery.


NPC jamming was changed from a fixed chance to sensor strength based over a year ago. This along with the recent AI buff to mission rats makes marauders annoying to use against Guristas jamming and forces you to waste mid slots on ECCM or stay perma-jammed. PvE aspect aside, the low sensor strength makes them too easily jammed in PvP by every ship with a drone bay thanks to ec-300s.

Marauder sensor strength needs to be equal to or greater than their T1 hulls.

Also as people keep pointing out, with the advent of the Noctis and salvage drones, salvaging and looting on the fly with a Marauder is inefficient in comparison - with this in mind, it wouldn't be a bad idea to move one of the utility high slots to a mid slot for every marauder.
Marauders should become a little more viable in PvP.
0racle
Galactic Rangers
#16 - 2013-04-02 04:21:35 UTC
StrongSmartSexy wrote:
Some thoughts:

Kronos:
Once one of two ships that had a bonus to webbing % effectiveness and the only ship to combine it with hybrid weapon bonuses.
Not long after, CCP changed Serpentis Ships' 5% less penalty to MWD cap amount bonus to webbing % effectiveness thus trumping one of the only reasons/advantages to ever use a Kronos for PvP since the Vindicator could do the same but has more EHP, an extra mid slot, 5 heavy drones, higher sensor strength and takes less time to jump into one.

Currently, much cheaper than the Vindi but nowhere near as viable for PvP for reasons applicable to all marauders.
At the very least, the Kronos deserves 125 bandwidth to field 5 heavy drones.

If CCP decides to make marauders a little more PvP focused, how would the Kronos be balanced to make it almost as preferable as a Vindi because a 600m cheaper price tag isn't enough.

Paladin:
5% to capacitor capacity bonus needs to be changed to 7.5% Energy turret optimal range and the base capacitor amount increased just like they did with the Apocalypse way back in the Trinity 1.1 patch - seriously, why wasn't this change made during the same patch?
Paladin is based off the apocalypse hull and while the latter ship got a needed buff, paladin was ignored.

Golem:
Should deserve the raven hull's 5% rate of fire bonus in place of the almost-useless and inappropriate 5% explosion velocity bonus. Powergrid of torps or the ship itself could use some attention too.

Vargur:
Given that all the other marauders can fit a full rack of T2 guns/launchers from any of their respective weapon class, by what reason or logic is the Vargur denied the ability to fit T2 1400s without the use of multiple powergrid mods?
Vargur deserves a pg buff to comfortably fit artillery.


NPC jamming was changed from a fixed chance to sensor strength based over a year ago. This along with the recent AI buff to mission rats makes marauders annoying to use against Guristas jamming and forces you to waste mid slots on ECCM or stay perma-jammed. PvE aspect aside, the low sensor strength makes them too easily jammed in PvP by every ship with a drone bay thanks to ec-300s.

Marauder sensor strength needs to be equal to or greater than their T1 hulls.

Also as people keep pointing out, with the advent of the Noctis and salvage drones, salvaging and looting on the fly with a Marauder is inefficient in comparison - with this in mind, it wouldn't be a bad idea to move one of the utility high slots to a mid slot for every marauder.
Marauders should become a little more viable in PvP.


I wouldn't necessarily hand a mid to every marauder. Perhaps mid to the vargur/golem and low to the kronos/paladin. It only makes sense.
StrongSmartSexy
Phenix Revolution
#17 - 2013-04-02 04:33:52 UTC  |  Edited by: StrongSmartSexy
0racle wrote:
StrongSmartSexy wrote:
Some thoughts:

Kronos:
Once one of two ships that had a bonus to webbing % effectiveness and the only ship to combine it with hybrid weapon bonuses.
Not long after, CCP changed Serpentis Ships' 5% less penalty to MWD cap amount bonus to webbing % effectiveness thus trumping one of the only reasons/advantages to ever use a Kronos for PvP since the Vindicator could do the same but has more EHP, an extra mid slot, 5 heavy drones, higher sensor strength and takes less time to jump into one.

Currently, much cheaper than the Vindi but nowhere near as viable for PvP for reasons applicable to all marauders.
At the very least, the Kronos deserves 125 bandwidth to field 5 heavy drones.

If CCP decides to make marauders a little more PvP focused, how would the Kronos be balanced to make it almost as preferable as a Vindi because a 600m cheaper price tag isn't enough.

Paladin:
5% to capacitor capacity bonus needs to be changed to 7.5% Energy turret optimal range and the base capacitor amount increased just like they did with the Apocalypse way back in the Trinity 1.1 patch - seriously, why wasn't this change made during the same patch?
Paladin is based off the apocalypse hull and while the latter ship got a needed buff, paladin was ignored.

Golem:
Should deserve the raven hull's 5% rate of fire bonus in place of the almost-useless and inappropriate 5% explosion velocity bonus. Powergrid of torps or the ship itself could use some attention too.

Vargur:
Given that all the other marauders can fit a full rack of T2 guns/launchers from any of their respective weapon class, by what reason or logic is the Vargur denied the ability to fit T2 1400s without the use of multiple powergrid mods?
Vargur deserves a pg buff to comfortably fit artillery.


NPC jamming was changed from a fixed chance to sensor strength based over a year ago. This along with the recent AI buff to mission rats makes marauders annoying to use against Guristas jamming and forces you to waste mid slots on ECCM or stay perma-jammed. PvE aspect aside, the low sensor strength makes them too easily jammed in PvP by every ship with a drone bay thanks to ec-300s.

Marauder sensor strength needs to be equal to or greater than their T1 hulls.

Also as people keep pointing out, with the advent of the Noctis and salvage drones, salvaging and looting on the fly with a Marauder is inefficient in comparison - with this in mind, it wouldn't be a bad idea to move one of the utility high slots to a mid slot for every marauder.
Marauders should become a little more viable in PvP.


I wouldn't necessarily hand a mid to every marauder. Perhaps mid to the vargur/golem and low to the kronos/paladin. It only makes sense.

Yeah good point. My suggestion was based on increasing the ewar potential of all the ships especially the kronos and paladin.
SehrGute
Hunters of capsuleers
#18 - 2013-04-02 07:56:53 UTC  |  Edited by: SehrGute
StrongSmartSexy wrote:
Some thoughts:

Golem:
Should deserve the raven hull's 5% rate of fire bonus in place of the almost-useless and inappropriate 5% explosion velocity bonus. Powergrid of torps or the ship itself could use some attention too.
.



NO NO NO, don't touch the 5% explosion velocity, combined with target painters, torps are a deadly and viable weapon against cruisers and up. And a torp golem (with drones) can do 1300-1400 dps. so it does not in any way need a DPS boost. but it need some boost, it is by fare not a marauder by definition. and has been rendered useless by noctis.

I don't know where I would start to fix the golem, because it is a really good ship, the problem is other ships have made it useless. but if I could have it my way, even more explosion velocity and target painter bonus, or/and increase sensor strength, or/and another rig/med slot, and/or more PG, it is almost impossible to have a torp golem with cap booster, AB and shield booster.
To mare
Advanced Technology
#19 - 2013-04-02 09:08:22 UTC  |  Edited by: To mare
Remove the jam weakness and make them 5 turret/launchers (adjust fittings)

Change the tractor beam bonus to something more useful for pvp
Skorpynekomimi
#20 - 2013-04-02 10:26:38 UTC
They really do need a buff; I ran a vargur up on EFT the other day, and found myself severely hurting for pg compared to my mael, for only a bit more falloff. For a close to a billion investment, it's not worth it.

Economic PVP
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