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supercaps (un)balancing and solution
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MacGardner
TEMPLAR.
The Initiative.
#1 - 2011-10-30 20:55:00 UTC
By making titans able to attack only another capital vessel opens the possiblility for a HIC to stop them dead for indefinite time. This is not consistent, not only with the RL couterparts ( you cannot stop an aircraft carrier with a boat with a hook ), but with eve as well, as any ship in eve has the possibility to counteract the action of any other ship, either by having a couter-act module or by being able to engage and fight that ship. By making the supercaps unable to engage HICs it is a very big UNBALANCING.

How about making the supercaps immune to all current forms of interdiction ( bubbles included ) and invent a CAPITAL module that will allow only a CAPITAL ship to tackle a supercap ?
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2 - 2011-10-30 21:13:49 UTC
MacGardner wrote:
By making titans able to attack only another capital vessel opens the possiblility for a HIC to stop them dead for indefinite time. This is not consistent, not only with the RL couterparts ( you cannot stop an aircraft carrier with a boat with a hook ), but with eve as well, as any ship in eve has the possibility to counteract the action of any other ship, either by having a couter-act module or by being able to engage and fight that ship. By making the supercaps unable to engage HICs it is a very big UNBALANCING.

How about making the supercaps immune to all current forms of interdiction ( bubbles included ) and invent a CAPITAL module that will allow only a CAPITAL ship to tackle a supercap ?


How about you bring a friend with you when you drop your tens of billions of isk onto people?

Seriously.

BRING.

SUPPORT.
MacGardner
TEMPLAR.
The Initiative.
#3 - 2011-10-30 21:29:34 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
MacGardner wrote:
By making titans able to attack only another capital vessel opens the possiblility for a HIC to stop them dead for indefinite time. This is not consistent, not only with the RL couterparts ( you cannot stop an aircraft carrier with a boat with a hook ), but with eve as well, as any ship in eve has the possibility to counteract the action of any other ship, either by having a couter-act module or by being able to engage and fight that ship. By making the supercaps unable to engage HICs it is a very big UNBALANCING.

How about making the supercaps immune to all current forms of interdiction ( bubbles included ) and invent a CAPITAL module that will allow only a CAPITAL ship to tackle a supercap ?


How about you bring a friend with you when you drop your tens of billions of isk onto people?
Seriously.
BRING.
SUPPORT.


What if support DIES ?
Support as a mean of defense or attack is not in discussion here. Your comment does not address the problem nor the solution.
As i said, no other ship is completely defenseless against another in eve. Or, if you want to reformulate, no other SINGLE ship is completely defenseless against another SINGLE ship.

Supercaps should be the last ships to be defenseless against anything.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#4 - 2011-10-30 21:35:22 UTC
MacGardner wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
MacGardner wrote:
By making titans able to attack only another capital vessel opens the possiblility for a HIC to stop them dead for indefinite time. This is not consistent, not only with the RL couterparts ( you cannot stop an aircraft carrier with a boat with a hook ), but with eve as well, as any ship in eve has the possibility to counteract the action of any other ship, either by having a couter-act module or by being able to engage and fight that ship. By making the supercaps unable to engage HICs it is a very big UNBALANCING.

How about making the supercaps immune to all current forms of interdiction ( bubbles included ) and invent a CAPITAL module that will allow only a CAPITAL ship to tackle a supercap ?


How about you bring a friend with you when you drop your tens of billions of isk onto people?
Seriously.
BRING.
SUPPORT.


What if support DIES ?
Support as a mean of defense or attack is not in discussion here. Your comment does not address the problem nor the solution.
As i said, no other ship is completely defenseless against another in eve. Or, if you want to reformulate, no other SINGLE ship is completely defenseless against another SINGLE ship.

Supercaps should be the last ships to be defenseless against anything.


If you lost your entire support fleet, you deserve to lose your titan.

Exactly how is my maelstrom not defenceless against a titan? or my scimi? Or my rifter? (Running away does not count.)

Titans are NOT solo ships. They are alliance level assets intended to be used in FLEETS. If you are flying a supercap solo and you get caught, you deserve to lose it.

Bring Support.

This fixes dropping fifty titans on a fleet and DDing all the logis, command ships, hics etc etc etc. That is a GOOD THING.
CC Babcock
Doomheim
#5 - 2011-10-30 21:39:14 UTC  |  Edited by: CC Babcock
Danika Princip wrote:
How about you bring a friend with you when you drop your tens of billions of isk onto people?
Seriously.
BRING.
SUPPORT.


How about applying the same principle on smaller vessels, like battleships ? They are way more expensive too. By all means, let's make battleships unable to attack anything smaller than a cruiser, and render them defenseless against frigs.

Anywhere in eve or RL, if you want a better product, you need to spend more. If you spend "tens of billions of isk" for a ship, that ship should be accordingly better. Nobody keeps the other "people" to buy their own "tens of billions of isk" defense.

"This fixes dropping fifty titans on a fleet and DDing all the logis, command ships, hics etc etc etc."

this is not an exploit or a fault of the game. You want to counteract 50 titans, bring your own 60 titans. Do not pretend you can navigate a shipping boat between aircraft carriers without them being able to touch you.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#6 - 2011-10-30 21:41:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Danika Princip
CC Babcock wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
How about you bring a friend with you when you drop your tens of billions of isk onto people?
Seriously.
BRING.
SUPPORT.


How about applying the same principle on smaller vessels, like battleships ? They are way more expensive too. By all means, let's make battleships unable to attack anything smaller than a cruiser, and render them defenseless against frigs.

Anywhere in eve or RL, if you want a better product, you need to spend more. If you spend "tens of billions of isk" for a ship, that ship should be accordingly better. Nobody keeps the other "people" to buy their own "tens of billions of isk" defense.


Hint: A titan can still use it's guns on smaller things, it just can't instantly kill everything smaller than itself. Explain to me why it's a good thing to be able to pop every command ship and logistics a better fleet than yours has?
CC Babcock
Doomheim
#7 - 2011-10-30 21:45:53 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Hint: A titan can still use it's guns on smaller things, it just can't instantly kill everything smaller than itself. Explain to me why it's a good thing to be able to pop every command ship and logistics a better fleet than yours has?


How can a capital gun hit a cruiser ?

Good thing ? Its reality. Explain to me how a command and logistic ship is "better fleet" than a 50 titans fleet. If you spend on your ship 1000 times more isk than on a command ship or a HIC, it is normal to be able to destroy that HIC 1000 times easier.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2011-10-30 21:50:31 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
MacGardner wrote:
By making titans able to attack only another capital vessel opens the possiblility for a HIC to stop them dead for indefinite time. This is not consistent, not only with the RL couterparts ( you cannot stop an aircraft carrier with a boat with a hook ), but with eve as well, as any ship in eve has the possibility to counteract the action of any other ship, either by having a couter-act module or by being able to engage and fight that ship. By making the supercaps unable to engage HICs it is a very big UNBALANCING.

How about making the supercaps immune to all current forms of interdiction ( bubbles included ) and invent a CAPITAL module that will allow only a CAPITAL ship to tackle a supercap ?


How about you bring a friend with you when you drop your tens of billions of isk onto people?

Seriously.

BRING.

SUPPORT.

lol, i know right? you'd think we were playing a single player game the way all these people throw solo SC's around.

and honestly, HOW THE HELL dos the HIC stop your ship without first KILLING THE FLEET YOU SHOULD HAVE GUARDING THE FRAGGIN CYNO! i eamn really, if there is any enemy in the system your going intot hat will present a threat, surely he would kill your cyno, or if your smart, be killed by the fleet GUARDING the cyno.
MacGardner
TEMPLAR.
The Initiative.
#9 - 2011-10-30 21:51:18 UTC
Thank you for discussing this, but please read the rules and refrain from inflaming the topic. Also, please STAY withing the topic. The reason for making the change is not in discussion, but the fact that the change is causing an incoherence in the world of eve. I have proposed a solution that would solve both the imbalance and the cause of the change. Please keep your comments constructive.

Thank you.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#10 - 2011-10-30 21:54:41 UTC
MacGardner wrote:
By making titans able to attack only another capital vessel opens the possiblility for a HIC to stop them dead for indefinite time.


Oh noes... instakilling doomsdays don't affect subcaps... guess you'll just have to stick with shooting at subcaps with near instakilling 500% damage bonused capitals turrets/launchers. Roll

MacGardner wrote:
This is not consistent, not only with the RL couterparts ( you cannot stop an aircraft carrier with a boat with a hook ),


No... but a RL heavy missile cruiser CAN cripple a RL carrier that doesn't have support.

Quote:
Anywhere in eve or RL, if you want a better product, you need to spend more. If you spend "tens of billions of isk" for a ship, that ship should be accordingly better. Nobody keeps the other "people" to buy their own "tens of billions of isk" defense.


Repeat after me... bigger is not always better. The same applies to cost.
Example: Assuming all pilots are "decently skilled" (pilot and character-wise) and have "decent fits," three 30 million ISK cruisers can a kill a solo 200 million ISK battleship without much of an issue.

Quote:
What if support DIES ?
Support as a mean of defense or attack is not in discussion here. Your comment does not address the problem nor the solution.
As i said, no other ship is completely defenseless against another in eve. Or, if you want to reformulate, no other SINGLE ship is completely defenseless against another SINGLE ship.


Ahhh... but "having support" IS part of the discussion as that is WHY said supercapitals and dreds got whacked with the nerf-bat. By making such large ships "vulnerable" against "small" ships you open up the field of battle to who has better planning and forethought (no more, "hawtdrop, kill, lol, jump out.").

How did you Veterans start?
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#11 - 2011-10-30 22:02:28 UTC
CC Babcock wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Hint: A titan can still use it's guns on smaller things, it just can't instantly kill everything smaller than itself. Explain to me why it's a good thing to be able to pop every command ship and logistics a better fleet than yours has?


How can a capital gun hit a cruiser ?

Good thing ? Its reality. Explain to me how a command and logistic ship is "better fleet" than a 50 titans fleet. If you spend on your ship 1000 times more isk than on a command ship or a HIC, it is normal to be able to destroy that HIC 1000 times easier.


How can a cruiser defend itself against a titan?

Explain to me how having a 256 man fleet flying a unified doctrine with enough CS/logi/ecm/etc (Plus the inevitable scrub fleet of rifters, drakes etc) that has been able to take out your support fleet should be decimated because you've managed to find 50 titans in your coalition?
MacGardner
TEMPLAR.
The Initiative.
#12 - 2011-10-30 22:04:44 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
No... but a RL heavy missile cruiser CAN cripple a RL carrier that doesn't have support.


without the RL carrier being able to fight back ?

ShahFluffers wrote:
Ahhh... but "having support" IS part of the discussion as that is WHY said supercapitals and dreds got whacked with the nerf-bat. By making such large ships "vulnerable" against "small" ships you open up the field of battle to who has better planning and forethought (no more, "hawtdrop, kill, lol, jump out.").


Actually... no, it is NOT part of the discussion. And the change is only - again - favorizing the bigger alliances in detriment of the smaller ones, which, until now, had a chance to defend a system against bigger numbers by investing in better ships. BUT AGAIN THIS IS NOT PART OF THE DISCUSSION. If you care to read my post, you would notice that I do not even suggest that supercaps should continue to be able to attack smaller ships ( which btw in my opinion should be normal, but i do not want to discuss this here ).

THE RULES OF THIS FORUM SECTION IS TO KEEP THE COMMENTS CONSTRUCTIVE AND WITHIN THE TOPIC. WANT TO INFLAME THE POST, PLEASE GO TO JITA LOCAL CHANNEL.
CC Babcock
Doomheim
#13 - 2011-10-30 22:12:07 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
How can a cruiser defend itself against a titan?


It cannot. By all means, let's make it invulnerable instead. And while we're there, let's also make frigs invulnerable against battleships too.

Danika Princip wrote:
Explain to me how having a 256 man fleet flying a unified doctrine with enough CS/logi/ecm/etc (Plus the inevitable scrub fleet of rifters, drakes etc) that has been able to take out your support fleet should be decimated because you've managed to find 50 titans in your coalition?


erm... because 50 titans ARE better than 256 subcaps ? Or, keeping the proportions, a titan is better than 5 subcaps ? Do you find this idea outrageous ?
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#14 - 2011-10-30 22:16:05 UTC
MacGardner wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:
No... but a RL heavy missile cruiser CAN cripple a RL carrier that doesn't have support.


without the RL carrier being able to fight back ?


Without support? Sure. Support being it's aircraft, or the fleet protecting it. You know, like the fleet your titan should have if you're going to use it.

Quote:

ShahFluffers wrote:
Ahhh... but "having support" IS part of the discussion as that is WHY said supercapitals and dreds got whacked with the nerf-bat. By making such large ships "vulnerable" against "small" ships you open up the field of battle to who has better planning and forethought (no more, "hawtdrop, kill, lol, jump out.").


Actually... no, it is NOT part of the discussion. And the change is only - again - favorizing the bigger alliances in detriment of the smaller ones, which, until now, had a chance to defend a system against bigger numbers by investing in better ships. BUT AGAIN THIS IS NOT PART OF THE DISCUSSION. If you care to read my post, you would notice that I do not even suggest that supercaps should continue to be able to attack smaller ships ( which btw in my opinion should be normal, but i do not want to discuss this here ).

THE RULES OF THIS FORUM SECTION IS TO KEEP THE COMMENTS CONSTRUCTIVE AND WITHIN THE TOPIC. WANT TO INFLAME THE POST, PLEASE GO TO JITA LOCAL CHANNEL.


Support is vital for a super that does not want to die. Exactly WHY is this a bad thing? How does this favour the bigger alliances? It's not like they couldn't just drop more supers on you (Which is, after all, the only current counter to a supercap fleet)

If you can drop 60-100 bil on a titan, you can drop a bit of isk on a support fleet to make sure it doesn't die. (Also, with better ships and better FCing, you can defend against greater numbers. Ask PL about it.)
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#15 - 2011-10-30 22:18:21 UTC
CC Babcock wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
How can a cruiser defend itself against a titan?


It cannot. By all means, let's make it invulnerable instead. And while we're there, let's also make frigs invulnerable against battleships too.

Danika Princip wrote:
Explain to me how having a 256 man fleet flying a unified doctrine with enough CS/logi/ecm/etc (Plus the inevitable scrub fleet of rifters, drakes etc) that has been able to take out your support fleet should be decimated because you've managed to find 50 titans in your coalition?


erm... because 50 titans ARE better than 256 subcaps ? Or, keeping the proportions, a titan is better than 5 subcaps ? Do you find this idea outrageous ?


Do you find it acceptable that the only counter to that 50 titans would be 51 titans? That no amount of subcaps could even kill one, as they'd just get DDed off the field?
MacGardner
TEMPLAR.
The Initiative.
#16 - 2011-10-30 22:30:43 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Support is vital for a super that does not want to die. Exactly WHY is this a bad thing?


Not a bad thing. Just out of topic. Please stop.
CC Babcock
Doomheim
#17 - 2011-10-30 22:36:05 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Do you find it acceptable that the only counter to that 50 titans would be 51 titans? That no amount of subcaps could even kill one, as they'd just get DDed off the field?


So far i have answered your questions. Please try answer mine before asking another.

Quote:
Just because I seem like an idiot, doesn't mean I am one."


no, but it increases the probability.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#18 - 2011-10-31 12:19:59 UTC
MacGardner wrote:
By making titans able to attack only another capital vessel opens the possiblility for a HIC to stop them dead for indefinite time. This is not consistent, not only with the RL couterparts ( you cannot stop an aircraft carrier with a boat with a hook ), ...


Wanna bet? You get a smaller vessel in close enough and the carriers defenses can't hit you. You could potentially foul the screws with cabling, stopping it dead in the water. You could also get in close with a submarine and cripple it easily with a couple torpedo hits from aft.

There's a reason carriers dont' travel alone. They're meant as support and projection of power platforms that are centered in a fleet, not solo be-all end-all ships.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#19 - 2011-10-31 12:43:04 UTC
MacGardner wrote:
By making titans able to attack only another capital vessel opens the possiblility for a HIC to stop them dead for indefinite time.


I agree completely, this is stupid beyond belief.


A HIC shouldn't be needed, a Merlin should be able to tackle it. Remove disruptor/scrambler immunity on supercaps. Just say no to built-in WCS on combat ships, kids.

Also, Eve ≠ real life. Roll
Franky Sugaz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#20 - 2011-10-31 14:02:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Franky Sugaz
Nerf the dd like they want but give another line of high slot that can only fit med and small cannons/missile lunchers so they can try to defend against small ship; is ridiculus that an enormous battle station like a titan only have gigantic weapons and not some small turrets to engage small targets.
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