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[Odyssey] Faction Navy Cruisers

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Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#381 - 2013-03-30 22:00:03 UTC
May I suggest an alternative for SFI before it gets victimized to "rifter syndrome".

Switch the 5% rof bonus to a 6-7% damage bonus. This way it can have a nice alpha niche.

Too much emphasis on NOmen on this thread. People are really underestimating that range bonus and focusing on damage. Damage projection is a vital part of PVP and NOmen delivers that very nicely.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#382 - 2013-03-31 01:51:41 UTC
Deerin wrote:
May I suggest an alternative for SFI before it gets victimized to "rifter syndrome".

Switch the 5% rof bonus to a 6-7% damage bonus. This way it can have a nice alpha niche.

Too much emphasis on NOmen on this thread. People are really underestimating that range bonus and focusing on damage. Damage projection is a vital part of PVP and NOmen delivers that very nicely.



Sfi will still be a top 3 navy cruiser imo.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Drunken Bum
#383 - 2013-03-31 02:15:25 UTC
Major Killz wrote:
Heh! 800dps indeed. I suppose that would displace the Oracle which is able to do 800 damage per second @ 60,000m with scorch.


As far as the Vexor Navy Issue. Ive never been a fan of pure drone ships without secondary weapon systems contributing to damage.

With that said. I would not want to engage multiple Vexor Navy Issues and I do believe this will end badly for the Ishtar.


- killz

Ishtar still needs to be rebalanced. No point in speculating on that until they do.

After the patch we're giving the market some gentle supply restriction, like tying one wrist to the bedpost loosely with soft silk rope. Just enough to make things a bit more exciting for the market, not enough to make a safeword necessary.  -Fozzie
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#384 - 2013-03-31 07:16:19 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
...Anyway. I still like the new NOmen and don't want to see it turned into the millionth medium laser brawler platform as some suggest.

Who suggests that? The complaint that I (assuming you include me in that group Smile) have raised/support is that is too narrow in its scope to a point where brawling is not even possible/viable .. big difference between "making it into.." and "allowing for...".

The singular purpose doctrine is fine for T2 where one shops for a specific tool, but not run of the mill T1 hulls which is what navy is these days.

Gotta say I am going to miss being able to burn through a set of scorch before dying horribly, most times one leaves a ton of half used crystals behind (and in ever increasing station caches!) .. that RoF bonus sure did know how to chow down Smile


The thing about it is that all of the suggestions around "allowing for brawling" seem to revolve around removing that which makes it able to kite - the optimal bonus. There is no way in hell CCP is going to give us an 800 DPS "brawling from 50km" platform. Thus, NO - we have a hundred million billion gajillion brawling laser platforms that have damn near every combination of reasonable bonus.

-Liang


What would the names of these brawling laser boats be? Because I would like to buy some.

I suppose you could be mentioning the maller, but its strange that you called it "million bajillion"

Myself, I'd just like to see the nomen pull another mid out of its ass. Lol-shield setups and dual rep surprise would be pretty sweet and it isn't like the amarr lineup couldn't use a tad bit of flexibility.

PS

Nomen's speed/agility makes me hard.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#385 - 2013-03-31 07:41:54 UTC
What's that? You can't find medium laser brawling ships?
- Maller (Brawler)
- NAugoror (Brawler)
- Harbinger (Brawler)
- Absolution (Brawler)
- Devoter (Brawler)
- Phantasm (Brawler [or at least, it's damn sure not a kiter])
- Ashimmu (Brawler)
- Omen (Kiter)
- NOmen (Good Kiter)
- Zealot (Good Kiter)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#386 - 2013-03-31 08:18:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
Quote:
- Phantasm (Brawler [or at least, it's damn sure not a kiter])


:Sansha:

Ill be interested to see if fozzie reworks the entire sansha combat doctrine, since shield brawling with lasers is sort of a bizarre thing to do.
Johnny Aideron
Order of Rouvenor
#387 - 2013-03-31 08:59:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Johnny Aideron
The Navy Vexor doesn't need 2 utility highs, it seems like you are just phoning it in there. You should give it a third turret, or remove a highslot in favour of a more worthwhile attribute, such as a 275m3 dronebay (for two types of heavy/sentry drone, plus a flight of lights).
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#388 - 2013-03-31 10:16:14 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
What's that? You can't find medium laser brawling ships?
- Maller (Brawler)
- NAugoror (Brawler)
- Harbinger (Brawler)
- Absolution (Brawler)
- Devoter (Brawler)
- Phantasm (Brawler [or at least, it's damn sure not a kiter])
- Ashimmu (Brawler)
- Omen (Kiter)
- NOmen (Good Kiter)
- Zealot (Good Kiter)

-Liang



That's really odd, because those are all shoot-you-at-range ships that are out damaged/out-tracked by every other turret boat in scram/medium neut range.

Lasers are an elegant weapon from a more civilized[non-stacking-penalty] age. No reason to trade paint if you're going to fall behind there.

'Course, the maller is a slight exception because of its relatively god-tier buffer/fitting. Naug comes out being a maller that has utility highs[which the vanilla omen/maller lost] at the cost of having incoming/local reps mean less.

And really, how many X/3/7 cruisers are needed?

Oh, and don't bring up those steaming pile pirate ships. Hell, the ashimmu fails hard because of being practically forced to brawl.
Mariner6
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#389 - 2013-03-31 12:07:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Mariner6
Johnny Aideron wrote:
The Navy Vexor doesn't need 2 utility highs, it seems like you are just phoning it in there. You should give it a third turret, or remove a highslot in favour of a more worthwhile attribute, such as a 275m3 dronebay (for two types of heavy/sentry drone, plus a flight of lights).


Actually, this is pretty nice. This gives you an ability to put on a Drone Link Augmentor and a Neut if your doing kiting stuff with sentries and small autocannons. The boost to drone tracking will help quite a bit and the combo of a neut, small guns will help with anti-frigate stuff. (or you can abandon the sentries and launch the warriors if it gets nasty.) Hmmm, doing a quick fit in EFT a kiting sentry NVexor with Bouncers II's gives you 657 dps with pretty darn good tracking and you can hit out to 60 + 42 with them. (3 dda's) and its cap stable with a small booster burning away. (able to target out to 85km and the DLA allows you to engage to 80km with my fit) Its a tad bit slow at 2226m/s the way I have it fit so would need links/maybe implants to really pull it off. Will make a nice solo boat.

Or if you prefer up close and personal and gang work the 2 utility high slots allow for a very nice Remote Rep Vexor gang that should be very fun. If not doing that i can see some neuts being very handy. Also for those that might want to run low sec exploration sites, this might be a nice boat to do it from also with a spot for a probe launcher. So I think overall the slot layout is very nice.


What I cannot seem to do is work up a fit for the Navy Ex that I find really all that much better than a thorax (to the point that it would make it worth the cost particularly when you know this thing will be primary first.) I'm finding it really lacking on powergrid. When I compare it to other faction options I find it wanting. Though I starting to wonder if perhaps the eft file I'm working these fits is 100% accurate. Anyone EFT warrior up any good Navy EX fits yet? I'd be curious to see what you guys are coming up.
Perihelion Olenard
#390 - 2013-03-31 14:45:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Perihelion Olenard
Drunken Bum wrote:
Major Killz wrote:
Heh! 800dps indeed. I suppose that would displace the Oracle which is able to do 800 damage per second @ 60,000m with scorch.


As far as the Vexor Navy Issue. Ive never been a fan of pure drone ships without secondary weapon systems contributing to damage.

With that said. I would not want to engage multiple Vexor Navy Issues and I do believe this will end badly for the Ishtar.


- killz

Ishtar still needs to be rebalanced. No point in speculating on that until they do.

The ishtar still does a little more damage since it has three bonused turrets versus the new vexor navy issue's two unbonused. The ishtar also has more flexibility in how it's tanked due to slot layout and has a couple better base resistances. But, will the ishtar be worth the much higher cost and skill training? I don't think so. At least, not until they get their balance pass.

The vexor navy issue may even be a better armor tanker without the two extra resistances since it has an additional low power slot and rig slot.
Lili Lu
#391 - 2013-03-31 15:49:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
Well this is my first comment in this thread. I guess the biggest thing that stood out to me is the comparison between the Navy Osprey and the Navy Exeq. These are the respective "fast" navy cruisers for Caldari and Gallente. And here I am confused as to why the ship you are expecting/manipulating to be fit with the shortest range guns is being given the least speed, even less than the traditionally slowest race.

Are you afraid that those 6 lows could be abused with nano and damage mods? Well then the wonderful 4 mid slots means it would become another paper shield tanked gallente gank mobile. So really it would just die to the Osprey as soon as it got in range (a range much less than the Hams or Heavys being shot back at it) to apply it's blasters. In fact with such low base speed you are practically ensuring that this dynamic will prevail (nano all gank **** for shield tank suckage) because those blasters aren't going to ever get in range without such a setup. And the Navy exeq will remain the runt of the litter.

I did notice that you normalized the shield regen on all these ships to the base usual cruiser regen stat. I'm still wondering why BC shield regen has not been addressed yet to get rid of the ridiculous pve regen setups on the Drake. Until you do, that ship will continue to top the usage numbers for BCs I will bet. BCs having a 1400 regen very close to that of a cruiser and far from a BS regen while having almost a BS shield hp. This is a stupid design. Ok so you want to keep the Passive shield regen fitting possibility for pve. It can stand to lose some of its current power though.

Overall these are a lot of changes to digest. So some things may surprise us all with unintended consequences. But really, do something about the poor base speed of the Navy Exeq.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#392 - 2013-03-31 16:58:34 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
What's that? You can't find medium laser brawling ships?
- Maller (Brawler)
- NAugoror (Brawler)
- Harbinger (Brawler)
- Absolution (Brawler)
- Devoter (Brawler)
- Phantasm (Brawler [or at least, it's damn sure not a kiter])
- Ashimmu (Brawler)
- Omen (Kiter)
- NOmen (Good Kiter)
- Zealot (Good Kiter)

-Liang


How many solo viable laser brawlers are there ? ^^

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Zircon Dasher
#393 - 2013-03-31 17:36:56 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:

How many solo viable laser brawlers are there ? ^^


Who cares? This is a MMO.Lol

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#394 - 2013-03-31 17:39:54 UTC
Templar Dane wrote:

That's really odd, because those are all shoot-you-at-range ships that are out damaged/out-tracked by every other turret boat in scram/medium neut range.
...
Oh, and don't bring up those steaming pile pirate ships. Hell, the ashimmu fails hard because of being practically forced to brawl.


Garviel Tarrant wrote:
How many solo viable laser brawlers are there ? ^^


The role that you guys want filled is already filled. The optimal bonus kiting role isn't filled at all. If you want a good fast brawling platform, why not ask for the NAugoror to get a 4th mid slot or a tracking bonus?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#395 - 2013-03-31 18:33:50 UTC
Mariner6 wrote:
What I cannot seem to do is work up a fit for the Navy Ex that I find really all that much better than a thorax (to the point that it would make it worth the cost particularly when you know this thing will be primary first.) I'm finding it really lacking on powergrid. When I compare it to other faction options I find it wanting. Though I starting to wonder if perhaps the eft file I'm working these fits is 100% accurate. Anyone EFT warrior up any good Navy EX fits yet? I'd be curious to see what you guys are coming up.

ENI, with extra low slot, will have a better resist profile than Thorax (or more damage with mag stab, your pick). So it will stay alive longer (and apply more dps) than Thorax in a fleet fight.

OTOH, if you go with the speed option, it will be able to put in one more overdrive than Thorax and still have 20% more dps. Speed option is great for killing support in small skirmish fights.

I'm trying to figure out what the Thorax would be better at than the ENI at. Is it 200mm rail kiting? And what will the regular Vexor be better at than the VNI? The whole point of the rebalance was to give each ship a niche, and it seems to me that the ENI/VNI completely cover the Thorax/Vexor.











Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#396 - 2013-03-31 19:13:39 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Templar Dane wrote:

That's really odd, because those are all shoot-you-at-range ships that are out damaged/out-tracked by every other turret boat in scram/medium neut range.
...
Oh, and don't bring up those steaming pile pirate ships. Hell, the ashimmu fails hard because of being practically forced to brawl.


Garviel Tarrant wrote:
How many solo viable laser brawlers are there ? ^^


The role that you guys want filled is already filled. The optimal bonus kiting role isn't filled at all. If you want a good fast brawling platform, why not ask for the NAugoror to get a 4th mid slot or a tracking bonus?

-Liang



The Naug has a more extreme version of what he maller needs to become a solo boat, increased damage bonus, -1 gun +1 NOS


Loving the Naug though

Still i think its ****** up that the Navy exec can barely fit an 800 plate and electrons while the naug can fit heavy pulses and a 1600 plate.

also if the Caracal is supposed to be a viable brawler that competes with the vexor, sfi and naug it needs more tank.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Rynnik
Evasion Gaming
The Ancients.
#397 - 2013-03-31 20:24:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Rynnik
Liang Nuren wrote:
If you want a good fast brawling platform, why not ask for the NAugoror to get a 4th mid slot


Already did in this thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2802720#post2802720

I really hope CCP considers it. I especially like that the already allocated 10% armour hp bonus has synergy with the solo concept without making it a beastly maller replacement in gangs due to resists and reps working so well together. I would fly a 4 mid NAug brawler around true solo (and die to the first gatecamp - but that has never bothered me much).

I mean I would fly a 4 mid Nomen as well but it will already be borderline op kiting with 3, and it is pretty blah how all 5 laser Amarr cruisers have the same slot layout. TBH as unpopular as this statement will be, the Maller could have been a 2 mid cruiser with a bit of tweaking. It already sucks solo and depends on tackling assistance in gangs, so prop and cap booster are fine. That would have nerfed the traditional roll of cyno bait though I guess. P

---

CCP, please think about making one of these ships deviate from 5-3-7!
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Shadow Cartel
#398 - 2013-03-31 21:41:14 UTC
The VNI's bonus would be better placed on the Ishtar. As is, I don't see what direction the Ishtar's balance pass could go that would be helpful AND leave the VNI as a distinct ship.

Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM
Uppsy Daisy
State War Academy
Caldari State
#399 - 2013-03-31 21:41:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Uppsy Daisy
X Gallentius wrote:
Mariner6 wrote:
What I cannot seem to do is work up a fit for the Navy Ex that I find really all that much better than a thorax (to the point that it would make it worth the cost particularly when you know this thing will be primary first.) I'm finding it really lacking on powergrid. When I compare it to other faction options I find it wanting. Though I starting to wonder if perhaps the eft file I'm working these fits is 100% accurate. Anyone EFT warrior up any good Navy EX fits yet? I'd be curious to see what you guys are coming up.

ENI, with extra low slot, will have a better resist profile than Thorax (or more damage with mag stab, your pick). So it will stay alive longer (and apply more dps) than Thorax in a fleet fight.

OTOH, if you go with the speed option, it will be able to put in one more overdrive than Thorax and still have 20% more dps. Speed option is great for killing support in small skirmish fights.

I'm trying to figure out what the Thorax would be better at than the ENI at. Is it 200mm rail kiting? And what will the regular Vexor be better at than the VNI? The whole point of the rebalance was to give each ship a niche, and it seems to me that the ENI/VNI completely cover the Thorax/Vexor.



They cost more. CCP have already stated that performance to isk should scale exponentially.








[/quote]
0racle
Galactic Rangers
#400 - 2013-04-01 00:23:35 UTC
Two step wrote:
My comment from the CSM forums:

Omen and Aug have the same slot layout, might be nice to switch one of them up. Maybe trade a low for a mid on the omen, since it is supposed to be more speedy, and might want dual webs or something.


It's an Omen not a Thorax.

Gallente are more the type to armor tank and get another med slot in place of a low.