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Isn't this scamming CCP?
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Xen Solarus
Furious Destruction and Salvage
#21 - 2013-03-31 18:16:43 UTC
The most basic rule of economics is: "Everything is worth as much as a person is willing to pay for it".

Don't be one of those suckers that pays over the odds.

Post with your main, like a BOSS!

And no, i don't live in highsec.  As if that would make your opinion any less wrong.  
Eezee Gonozal
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#22 - 2013-03-31 18:40:41 UTC
Othran wrote:
Karl Hobb wrote:
Othran wrote:
It is a breach of Character Bazaar rules however

How so? Setting a price isn't scamming.


Using an alt to bid/bump/whatever is - that will get the iskies going back to owner if proved.



Are you just making up stuff or can you actually prove that?
nubile slave
Advanced Weapon Supplement League
Fraternity.
#23 - 2013-03-31 19:56:22 UTC
Eezee Gonozal wrote:
Othran wrote:
Karl Hobb wrote:
Othran wrote:
It is a breach of Character Bazaar rules however

How so? Setting a price isn't scamming.


Using an alt to bid/bump/whatever is - that will get the iskies going back to owner if proved.



Are you just making up stuff or can you actually prove that?




scam (skæm)

— n
1. a stratagem for gain; a swindle

— vb , scams , scamming , scammed
2. ( tr ) to swindle (someone) by means of a trick


Is that clear enough for you? Or do you need a translation?

If you are using alts (Pretending to be bidders) to manipulate the price far beyond what it's actual value is.....It's scamming.

I could care less, I know better, but the average player that reads the rules regarding character transfers might think this is not allowed...


I guess it should be expected, since most scams in game depend on CCP's total lack of tutorials/information addressing the tricks used. Lol
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#24 - 2013-03-31 20:15:37 UTC
nubile slave wrote:
Eezee Gonozal wrote:
Are you just making up stuff or can you actually prove that?
— vb , scams , scamming , scammed
2. ( tr ) to swindle (someone) by means of a trick

So you can't actually prove it.

This isn't actually scamming by your definition since no one is being tricked. You can clearly see the price you will pay for the character and you can decide whether to pay or not. You will most certainly get what you paid for (the character). You can decide at any time up until character transfer whether or not to pay for the character. If someone spooks you by bidding too high with an alt, that is their loss. Apparently you can use the search function and easily figure out who the offenders are, and avoid them.

No one is being tricked. this is not a scam.

If CCP considers this sort of action a scam, which it seems they might considering what some others have posted, great, petition the offenders. I don't see anything in the rules of the character bazaar to indicate otherwise, though.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Beekeeper Bob
Beekeepers Anonymous
#25 - 2013-03-31 20:19:22 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
nubile slave wrote:
Eezee Gonozal wrote:
Are you just making up stuff or can you actually prove that?
— vb , scams , scamming , scammed
2. ( tr ) to swindle (someone) by means of a trick

So you can't actually prove it.

This isn't actually scamming by your definition since no one is being tricked. You can clearly see the price you will pay for the character and you can decide whether to pay or not. You will most certainly get what you paid for (the character). You can decide at any time up until character transfer whether or not to pay for the character. If someone spooks you by bidding too high with an alt, that is their loss. Apparently you can use the search function and easily figure out who the offenders are, and avoid them.

No one is being tricked. this is not a scam.

If CCP considers this sort of action a scam, which it seems they might considering what some others have posted, great, petition the offenders. I don't see anything in the rules of the character bazaar to indicate otherwise, though.



Lawyer much? Anyone with an ounce of sense can see that this is scamming....Shocked

But I guess when you live in EVE, anything is possible ...including believing this isn't scamming...

Signature removed - CCP Eterne
Shao Huang
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2013-03-31 20:21:55 UTC
It's a violation of the 'daily bump', 'friendly bump' policy in the Forum as was pointed out.

Private sig. Do not read.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#27 - 2013-03-31 20:26:05 UTC
Beekeeper Bob wrote:
Lawyer much? Anyone with an ounce of sense can see that this is scamming....Shocked
Not really, no.
Setting a price and trying to get the most out of it is not scamming. At no point is someone not getting exactly what they're paying for at the price they're willing to pay.

It may break a few other rules of the bazaar, but it is not a scam.
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#28 - 2013-03-31 20:26:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Karl Hobb
Shao Huang wrote:
It's a violation of the 'daily bump', 'friendly bump' policy in the Forum as was pointed out.

Well then it's settled, petition the offenders.

E: It's worth noting that CCP doesn't consider it a scam, though.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#29 - 2013-03-31 20:29:38 UTC
You didn't lose anything by them doing this. There for it is not a scam. You also have no idea if the person inflating the price is actually a alt of the seller or not, you just assume it is.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
Eezee Gonozal
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#30 - 2013-03-31 20:40:15 UTC
Beekeeper Bob wrote:
Karl Hobb wrote:
nubile slave wrote:
Eezee Gonozal wrote:
Are you just making up stuff or can you actually prove that?
— vb , scams , scamming , scammed
2. ( tr ) to swindle (someone) by means of a trick

So you can't actually prove it.

This isn't actually scamming by your definition since no one is being tricked. You can clearly see the price you will pay for the character and you can decide whether to pay or not. You will most certainly get what you paid for (the character). You can decide at any time up until character transfer whether or not to pay for the character. If someone spooks you by bidding too high with an alt, that is their loss. Apparently you can use the search function and easily figure out who the offenders are, and avoid them.

No one is being tricked. this is not a scam.

If CCP considers this sort of action a scam, which it seems they might considering what some others have posted, great, petition the offenders. I don't see anything in the rules of the character bazaar to indicate otherwise, though.



Lawyer much? Anyone with an ounce of sense can see that this is scamming....Shocked

But I guess when you live in EVE, anything is possible ...including believing this isn't scamming...


Since the sale is completely legitimate and the only thing it violates is the bumping rule, I highly doubt the original statement that the sale would be reversed is true, which was kind of the point of my question.
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2013-03-31 20:47:46 UTC
As nobody has pointed it out yet, the burden lies on me ... as always.

No, it's not scamming CCP. Why would it ?
If CCP got scammed, they'd simply ban him for life.

This, ladies and gentlemen, is one of the fun reasons why commas are important.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#32 - 2013-03-31 20:51:26 UTC
Solstice Project wrote:
As nobody has pointed it out yet, the burden lies on me ... as always.

No, it's not scamming CCP. Why would it ?
If CCP got scammed, they'd simply ban him for life.

This, ladies and gentlemen, is one of the fun reasons why commas are important.

Come to think of it, if it does scam anyone, it is CCP, since they're the ones missing out on all the transfer fees that don't get paid when people use alts to (not actually) move the characters to create the impression that characters are actually being sold at those prices… P
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2013-03-31 20:54:44 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Solstice Project wrote:
As nobody has pointed it out yet, the burden lies on me ... as always.

No, it's not scamming CCP. Why would it ?
If CCP got scammed, they'd simply ban him for life.

This, ladies and gentlemen, is one of the fun reasons why commas are important.

Come to think of it, if it does scam anyone, it is CCP, since they're the ones missing out on all the transfer fees that don't get paid when people use alts to (not actually) move the characters to create the impression that characters are actually being sold at those prices… P
I have *no* idea about how all this stuff works.

If you're right though, this means that the conclusion is ...

... yes, CCP is getting scammed ...


... and therefore, we can close this thread now.


\:D/
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2013-03-31 20:55:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Ace Uoweme
Othran wrote:
I assume you haven't seen how many characters get relisted week after week - supposedly after being sold?

The amusing thing is that if you want to buy a character then all the detail is there in character bazaar already. Who "sold" it, when they "sold" it, who "bought" it, who posted in thread etc etc.

Its VERY easy to work out who is pumping up bids if you use search. Yes you're bound to get some false positives but this isn't rocket science, same dodgy names come up time and again - go find them yourselves, its not hard Blink

As mentioned before - if you give the mods of the forum a nudge then they normally deal with the worst of it quite quickly.


Yep.

Even eBay has rules against that type of sniping in an effort to boost the price.

I looked at the prices and there's no way I'd pay 2bil isk for a toon with but the basic skills leveled. Seen some with but a few level 5s leveled going for 4bil. Add Logistics 5 to the title, it's people outbidding each other for it -- yet the skills are barely would make a good logi pilot (i.e., few shield skills leveled to survive even in chains).

It used to be the buyers were more forceful in saying, "that toon isn't worth 2bil". Now they just post their bids. Ugh

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
Shao Huang
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2013-03-31 22:00:15 UTC
I should be clear that I am a completely new player. That said...

The Bazaar is potentially an interesting part of meta gaming. If I saw someone from a competing Alliance bidding on a character I felt would give them a strategic advantage, or I just wanted them to deplete ISK reserves I might push the price, even though I have no direct relationship to the toon being sold. It would be hard to intentionally set out to do this without a great deal of intel on who would be likely to bid, but if at a couple of weeks into the game I have thought of it there are more than likely Alliance's doing versions of this as well as single actors. In the case of an alliance or Corporate action if someone does not take the bait then the ISK stays in the Alliance anyway. Potential for very high profit at no risk. It is multiple players, not a single account so it is not strictly illegal, nor does it violate forum policy. If you made Alliance or Corporate regulations people would just create shell companies to do it. The nature of the game implies to me that this is likely already happening. Just saying.

Also to value the account at a gross level without considering the quality of skill architecture or use to the buyer you could simply calculate the time invested to have developed it and convert that to PLEX. I am too new to know yet if there is a direct correlation between the number of SP in a skill and the amount of time to train it across the board. If this is a fixed value then there is also a value of $/SP. I am not interested enough to figure it out, but someone might be, in order to use as a point of reference.

For instance, a 60B ISK character is currently worth about $333.00. How many SP in that character? What is the time conversion to have developed those under what conditions? Are SP all equally weighted or can some be considered more valuable than others, even if a fixed relationship to time? For instance, I notice that almost all high value characters have Subsystems maxed out. Even if there is a fixed relationship between SP:Time and therefore $, you could create a weighted formula based on market value of those skills given the current market conditions and such. That is you could correlate Subsystems to market, maybe based on current values of T3 ships or something?

might be interesting if I didnt need to finish the Epic Arc and L1 missions. Smile

Private sig. Do not read.
Eram Fidard
Doomheim
#36 - 2013-03-31 22:28:37 UTC
Shao Huang wrote:
I should be clear that I am a completely new player. That said...

snipped some words Smile



It actually is a very interesting meta-game, too rich for my blood though. I did follow the bazaar for awhile recently out of curiosity. The "right" skilled pilots are commonly sold for 1000-1200 isk/SP, whether this is manipulation or not, who knows?

But you can also see high-SP characters going for as low as 250-350 isk/SP. I think this has to do with the perceived value of isk versus SP, since many players might be content with a pile of isk even if it is billions lower than it should be.

As far as up-to-date info goes, I haven't skimmed that forum in a couple months, so I don't know the prices now. It really is to be expected that a market with such a high barrier-to-entry would be controlled by a select few.

-credit card $20 or else 2x plex for each sale

-large capital investment

Poster is not to be held responsible for damages to keyboards and/or noses caused by hot beverages.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#37 - 2013-04-01 08:21:34 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Yep.

Even eBay has rules against that type of sniping in an effort to boost the price.

I looked at the prices and there's no way I'd pay 2bil isk for a toon with but the basic skills leveled. Seen some with but a few level 5s leveled going for 4bil. Add Logistics 5 to the title, it's people outbidding each other for it -- yet the skills are barely would make a good logi pilot (i.e., few shield skills leveled to survive even in chains).

It used to be the buyers were more forceful in saying, "that toon isn't worth 2bil". Now they just post their bids. Ugh



EVE is not ebay.

A Scam is when you do not get the advertised good at the advertised price. They are illegal in the Character Bazaar (the character will be as described, or your money back).
Market Manipulation is fine in every market in EVE, including the Character market.

If the prices are too high for you, don't pay them.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#38 - 2013-04-01 08:40:02 UTC
a bil per mil SP is perfectly standard for capital sitters.
as far as i can figure, mostly because people are too lazy to spend the 3 months to train it themselves.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
Grayson Cole
Doomheim
#39 - 2013-04-01 09:28:49 UTC
nubile slave wrote:
Isn't using throw away alts to manipulate the price considered scamming?


No. A scam involves making you spend ISK intentionally.
Ex: Advertising contract item for 100 million, but the actual sell price in the contract is 100 billion.

Artificially bumping up the price of auction items is not scamming. There is nothing preventing you from opting out.

.
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#40 - 2013-04-01 09:38:43 UTC
This isn't even price manipulation. This is simply 'creating false interest'. If the price goes above what you are willing to pay, don't buy. If noone is legit willing to pay the 'unreasonable prices', then the characters wont sell, till the prices go down to what people are willing to pay. VERY basic economics. /thread.
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