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[Proposal] Rewarding Player Activity through skill points bonuses
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Token Star
Metal Sun
#41 - 2013-02-05 17:20:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Token Star
There are plenty of goals that a new player can achieve straight out of the box, with very few SPs. You don't have to be a subscriber for 3 months before you can start playing the game. Players that can dedicate more hours of game-play are rewarded with ISK, which could potentially make the game pay for itself. I think that's a pretty good incentive for new players to spend time playing the game, versus time offline while skills train. I doubt the folks at CCP would consider changing this.

It wouldn't exactly be fair to all the players who already have the skills. And if you are a new player dreaming of flying a Titan, I think the issue is a bit more complicated than simply having the correct set of skills in your character sheet.

If i could make the skill training go faster by spending more time on the game, it would give me an advantage over most other players.
De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#42 - 2013-02-05 17:24:46 UTC  |  Edited by: De'Veldrin
HalcyonRising wrote:


AND there are good reasons why games that utilize that kind of reward model has more subscribers versus EVE. Just saying... I think the problem with this game, is that many of you die hard blow hards on the forums just cannot admit a better game model when it's actually better. You types are hung up on the fact that this is a "unique" game, despite the fact that that uniqueness is flawed in many important ways.


The reason those games have far more subscribers than Eve is because they appeal to a wider base - nothing more, nothing less. Surprisingly, there are vast swaths of the population that just aren't into science-fiction in general and wouldn't find a game like Eve appealing no matter what you changed.

And it's not a better game model - just different. I think the fact that Eve has had fairly steady success over the last ten years proves that the model works in the long term, which is far more important that attracting a million subs in your first three months (Take a hard look at Star Trek Online if you need more proof).

I don't play games like WOW because I think it's ridiculous that I have to bash on a rock for 20 hours to get better at bashing on rocks. I don't have that kind of time to put into a game. With eve, I can put time organizing and helping my corp mates without ever logging in, even when I'm not at home.

It also does not follow that changing the skilling model would in any way impact the subscriber base. There are a lot of variables that go into making a successful game, and the skill system is just one of them. Changing one may have no impact at all, except, perhaps, to make the game LESS attractive to the people that already like it. It's a far more substantial risk on CCPs part than, for instance, Incarna.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
Vurt Konne
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#43 - 2013-02-06 18:17:08 UTC
Vranken deXantraille wrote:

...
But I wonder if new players experience (and also people that can only have one account at a time, whatever the reason) would not be improved if being active on a character actually made the skill learning quicker, according to what activity the character is doing. Skill points bonuses would be earned, as you are actually doing what the skill is about.
...

The current system has both benefits and drawbacks for new players. It rather is about playing styles then character age.
With the current system the advantage of a 24/7 power gamer over someone else is quite limited. The advantage is mainly a monetary and experience (player, not char) one. But the more 'casual' player can still bide his time and use his chances.

There are many games out there that prefer the grinder over the one who uses what he has to best effect EVE beeing different here does have some appeal to me.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#44 - 2013-02-07 09:31:34 UTC
No. This was in Eve early on and it was abused. If it is possible, then people will automate it and abuse it.

If you add a system that means you gain SP from an action, it becomes a grind mechanic. As it stand right now, the skill system is fair and open to all. With the removal of learning skills and the inclusion of attribute remaps, we now train far faster then ever. (yes I'm aware of the slight drop, but this only affected those with 5/5 learning)

Your idea will punish those without extra free time and reward those with. Any mechanic like this doesn't solve any problem, but creates many.

Eve is a non-grinding, no-level, class-less, passive-ability, real-time progression game, so you shouldn't be able to train things faster no matter what repetition you do. If faster speeds are your thing, buy implants.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
#45 - 2013-02-07 10:11:57 UTC
Vranken deXantraille wrote:
Jint Hikaru wrote:

Seriously, the above statement is not showing a limitation in Eve as a game, its showing a limitation in your friends intelligence and willingness to work towards a goal.

Eve is not about jumping into a UberBattleship and screeching off into the universe with your solid gold pants on.....

Its about being dropped into this huge universe full of powerful people, in a little tin can and a few coins in your pocket. Then figuring out what you want to become and how you are going to make your way there!

There are many other games out there that reward grinding and where you can be level 80 in a week, so you can be all end of game raid and wear the bestest hat.... why do you want to turn Eve into another one of those.


Hahaha I was expecting a vet's condescending response, and I'm not disappointed.

As I've said previously, it is very easy to say that "Eve is not about jumping into a uberbattleship" when YOU can actually do it!


You can jump in an uberbattleship in exactly the same amount of time as it took me (or any other vet player). Probably quite a bit faster as I started out in an industrial corp learning those skills.

I dont understad why you have such a problem with this.

Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer / SpaceBum In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
Intar Medris
KarmaFleet University
#46 - 2013-02-07 16:16:39 UTC
Vranken deXantraille wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
*queues up caldari battleship V*

*orbits a POS in rokh*

*goes to work, comes home to extra bonus skillpoints*


Which is why I stated there should be some sort of timeout measuring the actual activity of a player, rendering afk mining the only actual activity that could give out those bonuses (and perhaps cloaking as well).

Maybe I should explain more: mining and cloaking are activities that do not require much player operation to be actually used.

For the Spaceship Command skills, it is simple to understand that your character would learn more about his ship if he uses it for some stuff rather than just orbiting a POS.


Mining actually requires a decent amount of player activity to get the most out of it. I fill up an orca in roughly 2 hours.... by myself? How? Well a couple ML II upgrades, crystals, and a survey scanner. I know roughly what each 1/4 cycle gets me, and usaully break in down like that. I would say at my best I am 80-85% efficient. An AFK miner is lucky to get 30.

I try to be nice and mind my business just shooting lasers at rocks. There is just way too many asshats in New Eden for that to happen.
Alva Nolt
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#47 - 2013-02-11 12:50:13 UTC
OP, how about learning how to use search ???

Seeing a 1001st genius coming up with that "idea" gets, well, mighty boring.
Laendra
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2013-02-13 20:13:30 UTC
If I recall from the earlier days in EVE, we used to have On the Job Training....once per day, or some other such timeframe, you had a chance to gain skillpoints towards skills you were actively engaged in using. So you might get a few hundred bonus skillpoints or some such on several skills a day, if you were actively using them. It wasn't much, in the grand scheme of things, but at the time it felt awesome.

I am a supporter of this, as using a skill both should make it easier to learn if you are actively training it, and you should gain some benefit from practicing skills that you already have some knowledge of. I think it should be limited to one bonus per day per skill used....so if you were operating your T1 ship, spaceship command could get 100-250 sp, if you were shooting your small beam laser I at someone you could get 100-250 sp in Small Energy Turret, or Controlled Bursts, or Sharpshooting, etc...but maybe limit it to like 5-10 skills per day....and give it a 5% chance per skill being actively used, each time it is used.

Now, the devil's advocate...I do not support it if it would decrease performance in any significant way.
Jalxan
EVE University
Ivy League
#49 - 2013-02-13 23:06:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Jalxan
*Sigh* Forum ate my post. So I'm going to TL;DR this since I really don't feel like being eloquent twice. Sorry if this comes off as rude.

Should this be done?
- No. Absolutely not.

Why?
- Would require tens of thousands of "If" statements in code in order to cover all the possibilities of what a player is doing actively, while not exploiting the system. This will make it very likely for something to 'break' in the code, and would add stress to the server that's not needed.
- Would cause a huge number of petitions of players complaining they didn't get their XP when they should have. Again adds stress to CCP that's not needed.
- Would kill a number of non-skill related professions, such as running events (organizers of frigate free for all, anyone?), helping rookies via local chat, players spending hours at a time cloaked, watching for enemy movement, and so on.
- Would instigate grinding mechanics into the game, which would turn off a huge number of players. I for one left WoW because I hated grinding to level 90, and hated grinding for better and better gear. Eve has enough grinding from ISK generation and standings, and the former can be solved by PLEX. Worse, Eve would have what would considered to be 'infinite grinding', where there's no limit to how much you need to grind to complete all the skills.

What do I suggest instead?
- CCP released 2x training speed for new players at one point, in that until a character reaches a certain XP level (say, 5 million), that they train skills at twice the speed, stackable by implants. This will give new players that edge you speak of, without ripping off veterans.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2013-02-14 00:12:21 UTC
Average player retention time for Eve is 6 month, longer than some, but shorter than most. One of the reasons for this is completely passivity in XP progression system.

Majority of mmos have a completely active XP system based purely on ingame activity. Minority (Eve, Perpetuum, etc) have completely passive XP system based purely on RL time.

Recently, more mmos have begin a move onto the hybrid system from either extremes, as a way to achieve longer player retention. In every case, player retention improved. Players who found themselves with less time to play are less likely to cancel their subs, as the passive aspect is there. Players are less likely to never log on, resulting in eventually losing interest and cancel sub, because rewards for active playing is there.

A hybrid system doesn't necessarily make Eve's bitter vets happier. It does do well for CCP's bottom line.
Sai Ulrezai
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#51 - 2013-02-14 01:05:13 UTC
Vranken deXantraille wrote:
Why not offer skill points as a mission reward as well? It would speed up the training of assiduous players, without removing anything to the others.
It seems normal to me that a single-character player would get more reward than someone's 31st alt that never does anything.

Oh gawd yes, I'd absolutely love this option. As a novice i experience a lot of trouble with being at low tech, and this would greatly encourage me and the likes of me to play more aggressively in order to approach the high-class players ASAP.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#52 - 2013-02-14 04:26:19 UTC
Sai Ulrezai wrote:
Vranken deXantraille wrote:
Why not offer skill points as a mission reward as well? It would speed up the training of assiduous players, without removing anything to the others.
It seems normal to me that a single-character player would get more reward than someone's 31st alt that never does anything.

Oh gawd yes, I'd absolutely love this option. As a novice i experience a lot of trouble with being at low tech, and this would greatly encourage me and the likes of me to play more aggressively in order to approach the high-class players ASAP.

I hope to god your being sarcastic.

grinding would ruin eve, all this woudl do is require all players to spend 3 years in highsec grinding skills with missions sicne their would be a new "minimum level" to be allowed into player corps, since no one woudl tolerate a "lowbie", and then those same players would either quit from boredom, or never leave highsec again. eve needs more incentives for pvp, not less.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2013-02-14 05:10:21 UTC
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
Sai Ulrezai wrote:
Vranken deXantraille wrote:
Why not offer skill points as a mission reward as well? It would speed up the training of assiduous players, without removing anything to the others.
It seems normal to me that a single-character player would get more reward than someone's 31st alt that never does anything.

Oh gawd yes, I'd absolutely love this option. As a novice i experience a lot of trouble with being at low tech, and this would greatly encourage me and the likes of me to play more aggressively in order to approach the high-class players ASAP.

I hope to god your being sarcastic.

grinding would ruin eve, all this woudl do is require all players to spend 3 years in highsec grinding skills with missions sicne their would be a new "minimum level" to be allowed into player corps, since no one woudl tolerate a "lowbie", and then those same players would either quit from boredom, or never leave highsec again. eve needs more incentives for pvp, not less.


That 3 year minimal level would then be 6 years of docked and/or logged off waiting for SP to train. You pulled that number right out of your ass, of course, so might as well run with it.

Of course, in reality, the real minimal SP to get in a decent corp is currently around 6 months, combined with active, perhaps we can shorten that to 3 month.Big smile

It would have be a lot shorter than that had we have active SP. Recruiters know [correctly] that SP merely represent time subbed, the player may very well be docked and don't know how to read an overview. So they artificially rise the barrier just to compensate.
Tian Toralen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#54 - 2013-03-11 19:50:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Tian Toralen
I was thinking at something similar: allow 1 more character that can train skills at the same time with the main character on the same account after 1 year of play.

I understand why that is not possible now, because it's too useful, and EVE would become something like Heroes or Baldur's Gate where you have to control 3 characters to get anything done, every new player would have to start playing with 3 characters at once. So, make it as a reward after 1 year of play? Or make the alt account cheaper?
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#55 - 2013-03-11 21:34:15 UTC

I don't see why this SHOULD be implemented....

It honestly begs for abuse, and most safety measures can be easily circumvented... Yuck....

More importantly.... the notion about "catching up" with veterans is simply flawed...

Let's play a game: Who should win:

The links were already available to me from an internal contest we had as a corp.... The unlinked kills exist if I could be asked to hunt them down...

Rifter vs Wolf
Rifter vs Stabber
Rifter vs Drake
Rifter vs Raven

Taranis vs Wolf
Taranis vs Sabre
Taranis vs Rupture
Taranis vs Hurricane
Taranis vs Rapier
Taranis vs Vagabond

Helios vs Taranis
Helios vs Slicer
Helios vs Auto Wolf
Helios vs Arty Wolf
Helios vs Jaguar
Helios vs Harpy
Helios vs Thrasher
Helios vs Sabre

Vexor vs Cynabal
Vexor vs Maelstrom
Vexor vs SFI

You don't need max skillpoints, or three years of skills to fly a ship... that's a straight up lie...
You can be competitive in industry easily, within a month...
You can be competitive in trading within a day...
You can be competitive at mining within a week or two...
You can be competitive at hauling within a month or less....
You can be competitive at PvP within a week... and you can be a competitive soloer within a month...

You don't NEED massive amounts of skillpoints in this game, and that's the fallacy of your argument.. Skillpoints open doors, true... but you don't need perfect skills to be a good in this game.
Mocam
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2013-03-20 20:04:33 UTC
There's a large body of paying customers that don't get to play much for a variety of reasons. Many of them keep their accounts active during these periods simply to "keep up" - not "catch up" and not "advance faster" but to maintain advancement with those who are able to play more.

Those who end up in these situations vary across the years as different people have kids, cutting into their play time, job changes, etc... Alts are common and the "you don't need to log in with them all the time"...

There is a very healthy amount of accounts that burn up extremely small server resources as they only log in occasionally yet pay for the same full access as everyone else.

All your suggestion would do is remove all that income from CCP. If they aren't keeping up, they won't pay for their accounts and that will end the use of those accounts - which then cuts funding of development, etc.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#57 - 2013-03-21 16:54:34 UTC
HalcyonRising wrote:
De'Veldrin wrote:
Vranken deXantraille wrote:
De'Veldrin wrote:
You haven't answered the most important question of all - why does training need to speed up in the first place?


Well for any player that comes from another game, having to wait 3 years without any action from you to speed it up (other than implants) to get in some ships is discouraging.
This system would lower the entry barrier of EVE by rewarding active players over inactive ones. That way, people that come from another universe don't get so discouraged and have an incentive to keep playing (and it also means losing), because there is value in action..


This is the response I was expecting, to be honest. People that think this way are caught up in the model that other MMOs have where "catching up" to vets is an issue. Eve doesn't have that problem precisely because of how the skill system is set up.

There is no catching up to be had. Once you reach level 5 in a skill, you're just as good at that skill as any other "maxed" character in the game. Your system would, in fact, benefit older players more than newer ones simply because an older player would have more skills that are applicable to any given situation, which would translate to more bonus SP from any given activity than a newer player with fewer applicable skills.

The simple fact is that there is no ship in eve that takes you three years of training to be able to fly. You can (in theory) obtain the bare minimum skills to fly a titan in about nine or ten months if you max out your training and remap at the right times. You won't be able to fly it well, but you will be able to fly it. And any player that is discouraged by the amount of time training takes in Eve, is probably getting some bad (though well intentioned) advice.

Eve doesn't need an active skilling system - for one thing, because some skills don't have activities associated with them, and for another, because it wouldn't close the gap between new players and old ones, it would widen it.


AND there are good reasons why games that utilize that kind of reward model has more subscribers versus EVE. Just saying... I think the problem with this game, is that many of you die hard blow hards on the forums just cannot admit a better game model when it's actually better. You types are hung up on the fact that this is a "unique" game, despite the fact that that uniqueness is flawed in many important ways.

"popular" doesnt mean "better".

Over 90% of Americans consume fast food as a part of their daily diet, does that mean fast food is better? no, fast food KILLS YOU.
Lykouleon
Noble Sentiments
Second Empire.
#58 - 2013-03-21 18:27:55 UTC
No.

Lykouleon > CYNO ME CLOSER so I can hit them with my sword
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#59 - 2013-03-30 06:49:40 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Your idea will punish those without extra free time and reward those with. Any mechanic like this doesn't solve any problem, but creates many.


Only to those who don't have the time. Only those who want to always be top of the skill SP curve by longevity and protecting turf.

Biggest problem is only one toon for account can skill up. So to get around that limitation we have multiple accounts (looks good on the 500,000 active accounts summary, but the truth is we have more than one account to have alts). Other MMOs allow players to level their alts anyway they chose, be it more time in game (which is a reward with having players ingame populating it) or casually playing 2hrs a night.

I personally would prefer more work = more rewards.

How that's done -- and without bots ruining it for everyone -- I don't know. But if players want to put more time in than waiting for paint to dry to skill up, why should they be punished? For the status quo?

Don't want EvE to become like other MMOs racing to end-game in 3 days, but allows the 2 other alts on an account to be able to be leveled. Other accounts can be for helpers as needed (or to raise toons to resell as there's always a demand for more leveled toons). As it is, the other 2 slots are wasted, as stalling the leveling among 3 toons on one account is just pushing "get more accounts" scheme and encouraging more accounts with less people playing.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#60 - 2013-03-31 10:24:55 UTC
this is a stupid idea
so you want us to run eve client just to be able to get more sp? it is silly
you should run the game to play it and have fun not to farm sp
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