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A question for the anti-provists

Author
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#41 - 2013-03-31 07:43:05 UTC
I am a stakeholder in Kaalakiota. You can bet that my shares will help determine whether the current CEO of the corporation retains power or whether a new Chief Executive Officer is appointed.

Just because we do not give out votes with Caldari DNA, doesn't mean that those of us who have proved ourselves by becoming stakeholders don't get a voice in our own future!

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2013-03-31 08:13:57 UTC
Someone clearly doesn't understand what a shareholder's meeting is.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#43 - 2013-03-31 08:19:15 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:

What the *beep*, what the peace of gallentean bull*beep* is this? Since when peoples choose CEOs? The only thing our peoples did (and do), is welcoming him with either content, acceptance or acclamation. But peoples do not choose him. We don't vote for our leaders, we only accept them (or dissent against and being kicked away).
This is not the *beep* federation, where grey mob selects their loved puppets to rule them. Citizens love Heth because of what he did for them, and not because they 'chosen' him.
For *beep* sake, don't confuse tails with heads.


Chief Executive Heth retains his position due to being the majority stakeholder of Kaalakiota. Now, while it is true ownership of shares in a company does not equate fully to a democratic franchise it does permit holders of stock to demand accountability of the leadership of the board, its directors and its officers, that they maintain a financially sound operation, provide rationale for strategic decisions affecting the company and maintain legal operations.

Chief Executive Heth is not the sole owner of Kaalakiota and as such is obligated to be accountable to its employee-shareholders for his decisions and management of the company.

I would also say that the assertion that Caldari do not decide upon their leadership is a particularly flawed one since in fact we do, through share ownership earned through service and contribution to the corporations we work for.

Kurilaivonen|Concern

Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#44 - 2013-03-31 16:37:11 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:


What the *beep*, what the peace of gallentean bull*beep* is this? Since when peoples choose CEOs? The only thing our peoples did (and do), is welcoming him with either content, acceptance or acclamation. But peoples do not choose him. We don't vote for our leaders, we only accept them (or dissent against and being kicked away).
This is not the *beep* federation, where grey mob selects their loved puppets to rule them. Citizens love Heth because of what he did for them, and not because they 'chosen' him.
For *beep* sake, don't confuse tails with heads.


Where were you the past five years? You don't remember the mass riots in Heth's name after the armor forge? you don't remember the resignations of various CEO's and the sequential appointment of Tibus Heth based on the sheer will of Caldari opinion? I'm hardly the confused one in this conversation, though I'm beginning to understand that its not uncommon when it comes to dealing with you.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#45 - 2013-04-01 15:45:34 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
I am a stakeholder in Kaalakiota. You can bet that my shares will help determine whether the current CEO of the corporation retains power or whether a new Chief Executive Officer is appointed.

Just because we do not give out votes with Caldari DNA, doesn't mean that those of us who have proved ourselves by becoming stakeholders don't get a voice in our own future!

I respect you for being a stakeholder of this honorable corporation.
However, being stakeholder means having some part of authority. While all stakeholders are peoples, you can't call all peoples stakeholders.
I could understand such reply from things like Ixiris, but not from you, Tuulinen-haan.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

joelinux
Perkone
Caldari State
#46 - 2013-04-01 17:25:39 UTC
Simon Louvaki wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:


What the *beep*, what the peace of gallentean bull*beep* is this? Since when peoples choose CEOs? The only thing our peoples did (and do), is welcoming him with either content, acceptance or acclamation. But peoples do not choose him. We don't vote for our leaders, we only accept them (or dissent against and being kicked away).
This is not the *beep* federation, where grey mob selects their loved puppets to rule them. Citizens love Heth because of what he did for them, and not because they 'chosen' him.
For *beep* sake, don't confuse tails with heads.


Where were you the past five years? You don't remember the mass riots in Heth's name after the armor forge? you don't remember the resignations of various CEO's and the sequential appointment of Tibus Heth based on the sheer will of Caldari opinion? I'm hardly the confused one in this conversation, though I'm beginning to understand that its not uncommon when it comes to dealing with you.


I agree with Kim. We do not let mob rule govern Caldari affairs. Heth uprooted the Megacorps when they failed to make Caldari strong, not because they weren't coddling the weak in our society. If you want weakness, go join the Gallente.
Lialus Raithe
Doomheim
#47 - 2013-04-01 17:54:57 UTC
joelinux wrote:
I agree with Kim. We do not let mob rule govern Caldari affairs. Heth uprooted the Megacorps when they failed to make Caldari strong, not because they weren't coddling the weak in our society. If you want weakness, go join the Gallente.


Just to rectify your incorrect understanding of historical events.

Executor Tibus Heth didn't "uproot" anything, the Megacorporations (with the exception of Ishukone) voluntarily lent their support to the Caldari Providence Directorate following the Malkalen Incident and the events leading up to renewed hostilities between the Gallente and Caldari (which Heth himself helped escalate).

This gave Executor Tibus Heth executive control over the production and resources of the megacorporations, resources which he then used to assault the Gallente Federation and establish a lock down over Caldari Prime.

I admit some ignorance to how partnerships function in the corporate State but I would imagine that official support can be withdrawn in much the same way it was given. Assuming, of course, that Executor Tibus Heth and the CPD aren't ruling the State through subversion and subterfuge.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#48 - 2013-04-01 18:01:56 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
I am a stakeholder in Kaalakiota. You can bet that my shares will help determine whether the current CEO of the corporation retains power or whether a new Chief Executive Officer is appointed.

Just because we do not give out votes with Caldari DNA, doesn't mean that those of us who have proved ourselves by becoming stakeholders don't get a voice in our own future!

I respect you for being a stakeholder of this honorable corporation.
However, being stakeholder means having some part of authority. While all stakeholders are peoples, you can't call all peoples stakeholders.
I could understand such reply from things like Ixiris, but not from you, Tuulinen-haan.


To clarify, Ma'am, I'm not calling all people stakeholders. I worked hard and took many risks to earn my franchise and my stake in Kaalakiota's future, and my position as a leader within it.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#49 - 2013-04-01 18:04:43 UTC
Lialus Raithe wrote:
joelinux wrote:
I agree with Kim. We do not let mob rule govern Caldari affairs. Heth uprooted the Megacorps when they failed to make Caldari strong, not because they weren't coddling the weak in our society. If you want weakness, go join the Gallente.


Just to rectify your incorrect understanding of historical events.

Executor Tibus Heth didn't "uproot" anything, the Megacorporations (with the exception of Ishukone) voluntarily lent their support to the Caldari Providence Directorate following the Malkalen Incident and the events leading up to renewed hostilities between the Gallente and Caldari (which Heth himself helped escalate).

This gave Executor Tibus Heth executive control over the production and resources of the megacorporations, resources which he then used to assault the Gallente Federation and establish a lock down over Caldari Prime.

I admit some ignorance to how partnerships function in the corporate State but I would imagine that official support can be withdrawn in much the same way it was given. Assuming, of course, that Executor Tibus Heth and the CPD aren't ruling the State through subversion and subterfuge.


You're quite correct, Msr Raithe - as I suspect you already knew. The Executor's mandate is granted to him by virtue of a majority vote by the CEP and it can be terminated just as easily. In fact the entire CPD could be dismantled by order of the CEP - which remains the pre-eminent authority within State borders.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Svetlana Scarlet
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#50 - 2013-04-02 00:17:11 UTC
Knoot Enderas wrote:
My first concern is what might happen to the so-called 'New Meritocracy'. The Executor's reforms have helped to root out nepotism and corruption. They have restored the idea of appointment based on merit. Spending on education has increased and the quality of education has improved through the use of advanced screening techniques. Workers, inventors and small business owners have all been given support that would previously have been available only to those with Megacorp connections. Economic growth in the State has been significant, and workers now get good pay for hard work, as well as annual leave and the possibility of an early retirement. If the Chief Executive Panel were to return to power, what would happen to these reforms?


If you believe any of the above is true...I have some valuable tropical beachfront property on Caldari Prime to sell you. As others have pointed out, the Provists seem to have a rather odd version of "merit," seeing as how the chief qualification for almost any CPD position is "how much you support Tibus Heth." The mere fact that the Provists back a man who was a loader operator until 5 years ago to run a state inhabited by billions and an economy worth quadrillions of ISK should tell you exactly how much they believe in "merit."

Economic growth? The State has seesawed from economic crisis to economic crisis under Heth's leadership, to the point where he had to send the woman he branded as an incompetent and corrupt nepotist, his predecessor Oriitsuu, to beg the Amarr for a bailout. Workers get a better deal now? According to who? You will pardon my skepticism of the CPD assessing the success of its own misguided programs.

If the CEP were to finally realize that signing over their duty to a bumbling ideologue was a poor excuse for leadership, perhaps we would again see megacorporations competing based on market conditions and the interests of their shareholders, instead of whatever ridiculous idea the "Executor" can come up with today.

Knoot Enderas wrote:
Second is the question of Foreign Policy. While capsuleers have heavily critiqued the Executor's decisions, I do wonder what the CEP might do that's fundamentally different. Surely the Megacorps wouldn't hand Home back to the Federales? And surely the Megacorps would've come down just as hard on any uprising among the Gallente quartered inside their districts, after events of domestic terrorism?


Well, hopefully, the CEP will realize what a pathetic excuse for "foreign policy" we have had for five years and return to our previous doctrine of minding our own damn business while maintaining stable markets and friendly trading relations with all parties. Obviously, handing over Caldari Prime now is...not an acceptable option, but every effort should be made to secure the peace between the Gallente bloc and the Caldari State. A ceasefire, if not a true peace, is necessary to ensure the stability of the cluster.

As far as the problems on Caldari Prime, I have little doubt that megacorporate security forces with experience dealing with law enforcement and intelligence matters will do a far better job of securing the planet without alienating the Gallente populace, who would probably be more amenable to megacorporate governance if their "security" was not being maintained by an organization that has indulged in base racism and is staffed by thugs who were unable to find actual useful employment elsewhere. While that bridge may already have been burned, I am sure that the arrest and punishment of those responsible for crimes among the CPD ranks, as well as megacorporate reconstruction efforts and offers to repatriate Gallente citizens who wished to leave Caldari Prime, would go a long way to restoring a level of trust.

Knoot Enderas wrote:
Finally, there is the charge that the Executor and the Caldari Providence Directorate have used political suppression to remain in power. I ask: would this be any different if the Chief Executive Panel were in charge? Given the popularity of the Executor, there would almost certainly be riots in the event of a counter-coup. Would the CEP shock troops be more gentle with the unruly mobs? Or would they continue to rule the State in the same way that it's been ruled so far?


The megacorporations do not need "political suppression" to remain in power. They have no divine right to rule, and if they do not deserve their market share, or if they alienate their employees, their fates will remand them to the dustbin of history, to be replaced by more deserving corporations. If there are riots when the Provists are disbanded, then they will be dealt with as any other criminals would be, arrested and prosecuted for criminal acts. This is not "political suppression." If you wish to change the course of megacorporations, you do not riot like some sort of populist trash, you invest in your future and buy shares.

Furthermore, the CEP has no "shock troops," aside from the relatively diminutive and overcommitted Navy and Army forces; corporate security forces are completely within their rights to enforce corporate law within their sovereign territory, something which the CPD has conveniently forgotten. It seems highly unlikely that the CEP would ever agree to deploy State forces against a sovereign member, considering the precedent that would set. The only occasions I am aware of where such an act has been allowed was under the auspices of extreme sanction, and even then the vast majority of forces involved were corporate, not State.

Perhaps if you had not renounced the State to fly under the flag of the Amarr Empire you would understand this all better. The State is not, and has never been an authoritarian dictatorship, regardless of what Tibus Heth would have you believe, and no matter how many times he bangs on the table like a petulant child it will never be so.
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