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[Odyssey] Attack Battlecruiser balance pass

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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#201 - 2013-03-29 23:47:17 UTC
Major Killz wrote:
Johnson Oramara wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
0wl wrote:
Gah, still no Cruise Naga ... Disapointing.



Peopel really come here with this kind of expectation? Wtf people? get a grasp of reality.


Can someone actually explain why this would have been such an bad idea and wouldn't have worked with maybe less launcher slots?



Cruise and Siege missiles are pretty underwhelming in PVP. I was told they might have worked well in PVE but I dont know.

If the Naga was able to use missile. Then why not make the Talo a drone ship? In anycase. The Naga is one of the best vessels for fleet engagements. What more could a Caldari pilot ask for?


Apparently they would like to be shooting Cruise at their enemies from 180km away... ;-)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#202 - 2013-03-29 23:53:04 UTC
A nice subtle change, but too subtle really. The Talos doesn't need drones, and they could all stand to lose 1 turret - they're just superior to battleships at this point, for mobility is generally prized more than HP. Losing one turret still gives them a lot of firepower, but they will no longer overshadow their larger BS cousins.

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.
Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#203 - 2013-03-30 00:00:13 UTC
Major Killz wrote:
Johnson Oramara wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
0wl wrote:
Gah, still no Cruise Naga ... Disapointing.



Peopel really come here with this kind of expectation? Wtf people? get a grasp of reality.


Can someone actually explain why this would have been such an bad idea and wouldn't have worked with maybe less launcher slots?



Cruise and Siege missiles are pretty underwhelming in PVP. I was told they might have worked well in PVE but I dont know.

If the Naga was able to use missile. Then why not make the Talo a drone ship? In anycase. The Naga is one of the best vessels for fleet engagements. What more could a Caldari pilot ask for?


So because cruises and torpedoes are crap for pvp then instead of those getting fixed and made viable they just entirely ignore them and use another weapon system? I don't know, to me Talos and Naga are just a bit too similar in their roles... and now i guess i made someone angry...
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#204 - 2013-03-30 00:02:34 UTC
Johnson Oramara wrote:
Major Killz wrote:
Johnson Oramara wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
0wl wrote:
Gah, still no Cruise Naga ... Disapointing.



Peopel really come here with this kind of expectation? Wtf people? get a grasp of reality.


Can someone actually explain why this would have been such an bad idea and wouldn't have worked with maybe less launcher slots?



Cruise and Siege missiles are pretty underwhelming in PVP. I was told they might have worked well in PVE but I dont know.

If the Naga was able to use missile. Then why not make the Talo a drone ship? In anycase. The Naga is one of the best vessels for fleet engagements. What more could a Caldari pilot ask for?


So because cruises and torpedoes are crap for pvp then instead of those getting fixed and made viable they just entirely ignore them and use another weapon system? I don't know, to me Talos and Naga are just a bit too similar in their roles... and now i guess i made someone angry...


Yes. And they are too similar.

Also I am angry. Did you take my cashews? I cant find them X

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
PAPULA
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#205 - 2013-03-30 02:12:19 UTC
Nice, more nerfs.
CCP dont stop here, we need more nerfs.
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
#206 - 2013-03-30 02:18:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Petrified
Will be curious to see what happens in practice. Just scratching my head slightly why the Naga has the highest Align time when it's mass is third lowest (tied with the Oracle) and has least weight tied up in armor and structure? Or are you implying we Caldari know jack concerning how to make proper engines? Lol

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.
Alxea
Unstable Pirate Sharks Of The Damed Sea
#207 - 2013-03-30 02:47:50 UTC
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
decent changes but i think you can go further here.
-remove a turret
-buff tank to be better than combat cruisers as it seems odd a moa can outank a naga at least in HP anyway.

And nerf the alpha on arties for christ sake they are OP in this regard i think missiles should really do the alpha damage not guns.

They are glass cannons and fine as they are.
Alxea
Unstable Pirate Sharks Of The Damed Sea
#208 - 2013-03-30 03:41:07 UTC
For the love of the gods do not remove a turret from any of them. Do not listen to these people who want turrets removed. They were designed to use 8 turrets. Looks funny when there is a missing turret slot on a 8 turret hardpointed ship physically. They are perfectly fine as glass cannons. Their low EHP is made up by their high DPS. Remove DPS and see less people fly them!
Alxea
Unstable Pirate Sharks Of The Damed Sea
#209 - 2013-03-30 03:51:48 UTC
Major Killz wrote:
Johnson Oramara wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
0wl wrote:
Gah, still no Cruise Naga ... Disapointing.



Peopel really come here with this kind of expectation? Wtf people? get a grasp of reality.


Can someone actually explain why this would have been such an bad idea and wouldn't have worked with maybe less launcher slots?



Cruise and Siege missiles are pretty underwhelming in PVP. I was told they might have worked well in PVE but I dont know.

If the Naga was able to use missile. Then why not make the Talo a drone ship? In anycase. The Naga is one of the best vessels for fleet engagements. What more could a Caldari pilot ask for?

We have enough drone ships. Plus the talos is physically a turret ship. Would look funny if say half the turrets were missing on the body of a talos. It would just look dumb. Its made to be a 8 turret glass cannon and there is nothing wrong with it. There are a lot of counters to it. Rapiers and falcons!? Care to bring any vs the scary talos soloing your fleets and winning???? P
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#210 - 2013-03-30 10:56:41 UTC
Marian Devers wrote:
I don't understand - right now it takes 7 bombers to kill a Attack BC Fleet. What is the point of increasing the signature radius?


To make turrets and missiles track them more easily and hence apply more damage, emphasising the "glass" bit of the glass cannon idea.
The Sinister
Interbellum
#211 - 2013-03-30 12:51:51 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Looks ok, but I don't think the Talos needs the drones.



Ya I totally agree , out of the four Atack BCs the only one with drones is the Talos. So to be fair, either remove the drones from Talos or give drones to the Rest.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#212 - 2013-03-30 18:40:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Grath Telkin wrote:

Ok but i did all the numbers for you already, the difference at 40-50km is about 60-70 dps depending on what range you're at.


Hey Grath,

I told you I'd poast some ~numbers~ for you after GDC. So here they are. First, I think it's important to realize that you claim I lost "4-5km of range". However, I will now counter with the assertion that I didn't have 4-5km of range to lose. Consider the current situation (excluding drones):
- 32km: 370 DPS
- 35km: 320 DPS
- 40km: 243 DPS
- 42km: 216 DPS
- 48km: 144 DPS

I start my damage chart at 32km because going closer is generally a really bad idea. So let's look at how things will be (also excluding drones):
- 32km: 281 DPS (-89 DPS / 25%)
- 35km: 221 DPS (-99 DPS / 31%)
- 40km: 145 DPS (-98 DPS / 40%)
- 42km: 121 DPS (-95 DPS / 43%)
- 48km: 70 DPS (-74 DPS / 51%)

So for all practical purposes I'm losing 40-50% of my DPS. Any questions?

-Liang

Ed: Remember, I generally do actually know what the **** I'm talking about. And I'm sure Kil2's Neutron Special will be "fine" (by some definition of the word)... but the Talos will no longer be an acceptable ship for my purposes.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Dez Affinity
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#213 - 2013-03-30 23:26:35 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:

Ok but i did all the numbers for you already, the difference at 40-50km is about 60-70 dps depending on what range you're at.


Hey Grath,

I told you I'd poast some ~numbers~ for you after GDC. So here they are. First, I think it's important to realize that you claim I lost "4-5km of range". However, I will now counter with the assertion that I didn't have 4-5km of range to lose. Consider the current situation (excluding drones):
- 32km: 370 DPS
- 35km: 320 DPS
- 40km: 243 DPS
- 42km: 216 DPS
- 48km: 144 DPS

I start my damage chart at 32km because going closer is generally a really bad idea. So let's look at how things will be (also excluding drones):
- 32km: 281 DPS (-89 DPS / 25%)
- 35km: 221 DPS (-99 DPS / 31%)
- 40km: 145 DPS (-98 DPS / 40%)
- 42km: 121 DPS (-95 DPS / 43%)
- 48km: 70 DPS (-74 DPS / 51%)

So for all practical purposes I'm losing 40-50% of my DPS. Any questions?

-Liang

Ed: Remember, I generally do actually know what the **** I'm talking about. And I'm sure Kil2's Neutron Special will be "fine" (by some definition of the word)... but the Talos will no longer be an acceptable ship for my purposes.


Let me preface by saying that I don't think a TE nerf is the right move, but I couldn't care less how it 'nerfs' attack battlecruisers as they are clearly overpowered anyway.

Talos Pre TE Nerf

30km 675 dps
40km 480 dps
45km 382 dps
50km 295 dps

Talos Post TE Nerf
30km 605 dps (-75 / -10%)
40km 374 dps (-106 / -22%)
45km 275 dps (-107 / -28%)
50km 196 dps (-99 / -33%)

Keep in mind Talos has 100 dps in drones (or hornet ec-s lmao)


PS if you want to engage ONLY at 35-50km you might want to just use a different ship completely anyway regardless of nerf. If you do get brave enough to go under 35km though then you'll soon see how ridiculous the Talos is.

Comparatively

Tornado before and after TE nerf
30km 576 / 566
40km 521 / 504
45km 490 / 469
50km 456 / 432


Proof: http://imgur.com/a/g86lM

I also included a screenshot of them compared to a shield vindicator (the highest DPS blaster ship in game 1.5b hull 3 SS mag stabs 2 3 percent damage implants) and you can see how a Talos (75m 2 t2 mag stabs no implants) performs just as good after 35km.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#214 - 2013-03-31 04:27:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Dez Affinity wrote:

Let me preface by saying that I don't think a TE nerf is the right move, but I couldn't care less how it 'nerfs' attack battlecruisers as they are clearly overpowered anyway.

Talos Pre TE Nerf

30km 675 dps
40km 480 dps
45km 382 dps
50km 295 dps

Talos Post TE Nerf
30km 605 dps (-75 / -10%)
40km 374 dps (-106 / -22%)
45km 275 dps (-107 / -28%)
50km 196 dps (-99 / -33%)

Keep in mind Talos has 100 dps in drones (or hornet ec-s lmao)


Hey Dez, those are some great numbers. They look like they're from a Neutron Talos with 2 MFS/2 TE and a single nano. There's a lot of people that think that fit's just the best fit in the world, but I've found it's just outright inferior for my purposes. It's too easy to catch and pin down in the frigate rich environment of low sec.

I took the liberty of providing a DPS chart to compare our fits (neglecting drones):
Yours shooting Mine:
30km: 40 DPS
35km: 56 DPS
40km: 74 DPS
45km: 82 DPS
50km: 81 DPS

Mine shooting Yours:
30km: 382 DPS
35km: 308 DPS
40km: 234 DPS
45km: 172 DPS
50km: 119 DPS

As with any fit: the trick to PVP is knowing where you need to be. I have no problems going below 30km or even lower if that's where I need to be. :)

-Liang

Ed: More accurate numbers

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Dez Affinity
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#215 - 2013-03-31 04:59:45 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Dez Affinity wrote:

Let me preface by saying that I don't think a TE nerf is the right move, but I couldn't care less how it 'nerfs' attack battlecruisers as they are clearly overpowered anyway.

Talos Pre TE Nerf

30km 675 dps
40km 480 dps
45km 382 dps
50km 295 dps

Talos Post TE Nerf
30km 605 dps (-75 / -10%)
40km 374 dps (-106 / -22%)
45km 275 dps (-107 / -28%)
50km 196 dps (-99 / -33%)

Keep in mind Talos has 100 dps in drones (or hornet ec-s lmao)


Hey Dez, those are some great numbers. They look like they're from a Neutron Talos with 2 MFS/2 TE and a single nano. There's a lot of people that think that fit's just the best fit in the world, but I've found it's just outright inferior for my purposes. It's too easy to catch and pin down in the frigate rich environment of low sec.

I took the liberty of providing a DPS chart to compare our fits (neglecting drones):
Yours shooting Mine:
30km: 40 DPS
35km: 56 DPS
40km: 74 DPS
45km: 82 DPS
50km: 81 DPS

Mine shooting Yours:
30km: 382 DPS
35km: 308 DPS
40km: 234 DPS
45km: 172 DPS
50km: 119 DPS

As with any fit: the trick to PVP is knowing where you need to be. I have no problems going below 30km or even lower if that's where I need to be. :)

-Liang

Ed: More accurate numbers


The only way you are getting those numbers is if you have a 100mn AB fit with no shield buffer, in which case you are slower and thus die.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#216 - 2013-03-31 05:07:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
I'm glad that you feel you know more about flying 100mn Taloses than I do. Unfortunately, you couldn't be further from the truth. A standard Talos will either die or run away. It might be able to run away with proper piloting. Maybe.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Dez Affinity
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#217 - 2013-03-31 05:08:30 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
I'm glad that you feel you know more about flying 100mn Taloses than I do. Unfortunately, you couldn't be further from the truth.

-Liang


Maybe cause the scrubs you fight in Amamake just sit and orbit you like idiots because theyre 3 months old.

lmao
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#218 - 2013-03-31 05:10:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Dez Affinity wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
I'm glad that you feel you know more about flying 100mn Taloses than I do. Unfortunately, you couldn't be further from the truth.

-Liang


Maybe cause the scrubs you fight in Amamake just sit and orbit you like idiots because theyre 3 months old.

lmao


Pandemic Legion... Pandemic Legion. Oh yeah, the guys that lost a Titan in Amamake to FW noobs. Oh yeah, the guys that can't seem to score a kill because the only thing they know how to do is drop supers in Ama top belt. Dez Affinity, oh yeah the guy that seems to fly in "small gangs" of 40-120. Cool story, I'm glad you think you know something about how to fly ships.

-Liang

Ed: Can we discuss ships now or would you prefer to continue on with the idiotic name calling?

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#219 - 2013-03-31 05:16:48 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Dez Affinity wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
I'm glad that you feel you know more about flying 100mn Taloses than I do. Unfortunately, you couldn't be further from the truth.

-Liang


Maybe cause the scrubs you fight in Amamake just sit and orbit you like idiots because theyre 3 months old.

lmao


Pandemic Legion... Pandemic Legion. Oh yeah, the guys that lost a Titan in Amamake to FW noobs. Oh yeah, the guys that can't seem to score a kill because the only thing they know how to do is drop supers in Ama top belt. Dez Affinity, oh yeah the guy that seems to fly in "small gangs" of 40-120. Cool story, I'm glad you think you know something about how to fly ships.

-Liang

Ed: Can we discuss ships now or would you prefer to continue on with the idiotic name calling?


Its called being Pro pvpers

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#220 - 2013-03-31 05:19:31 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
they are slow and squishy enough as it is


Squishy, yes. Slow, no. As I said in the post, cruisers and frigs both put a lot of pressure on them, but they are still substantially faster than anything that rivals their damage projection.


They are faster than half cruiser line up. How can a cruiser put pressure on them when it just gets kited?